• Bernie Sanders releases Medicare - For All Plan.
    222 replies, posted
[QUOTE=wystan;49560996]Because billionaires aren't people too right? They don't deserve to have control of their own money right? Just on principle it's wrong to take money from people just because they have more than you.[/QUOTE] it is hard for me to have empathy for people who squirrel their money away tax free via loopholes being able to afford only three Lamborghinis instead of four, while millions of "lesser" people are constantly weighing the pros and cons of going to the hospital vs being in debt for years.
[QUOTE=wystan;49560996]Because billionaires aren't people too right? They don't deserve to have control of their own money right? Just on principle it's wrong to take money from people just because they have more than you.[/QUOTE] there's an ancient Athenian quote which I love. "There is no wealth without Athens. Therefore it is the wealthiest that have the greatest debt to maintain Athens"
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;49561030]it is hard for me to have empathy for people who squirrel their money away tax free via loopholes being able to afford only three Lamborghinis instead of four, while millions of "lesser" people are constantly weighing the pros and cons of going to the hospital vs being in debt for years.[/QUOTE] More generalizations about rich people, they are just all so evil and it's their fault we're poor right? [QUOTE=GunFox;49561020]The wealthy will still be wealthy with sliding scale tax burden. They have additional burden, because they can afford additional burden. It isn't like you are taking them and taxing them until they are middle class or some ridiculous bullshit. Our healthcare system is under equipped because do things like plant people in ridiculous amounts of debt so they can go to school and obtain their medical degree. Other nations don't do that. We spend massive sums of money already and get nothing in return because you aren't actually paying for quality. You are paying massive sums of money because you have no choice. The "free" market has a figurative gun to your head. You want your medical condition treated, right? Well you have to pay for it or risk permanent injury or death. Handing this over to the government instead means that standards can now be enforced. Healthcare can now be effectively governed, instead of left to fuck over people at every turn. This isn't a complicated concept.[/QUOTE] Dude you've got to stop comparing us to other nations, American Exceptionalism is 100% a real thing, this is a complicated issue because America is not comparable to any European nation because of our population, power, wealth, and more importantly what we spend that wealth on.
Dear rest of the world: [QUOTE=wystan;49560996]Because billionaires aren't people too right? They don't deserve to have control of their own money right? Just on principle it's wrong to take money from people just because they have more than you.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=GunFox;49556558][QUOTE=Selek;49556513]Sometimes the US just seems to alien to me. How can somebody sincerely believe that slavery comparison when it's never been a problem in the rest of the West (and other countries)? Unrelated to the video, I can't fathom the fact that the US considers itself the greatest country in the world when we got people like JumpinJackFlash being forced to do something that you should only have to do if you're in a warzone with no access to a doctor. Another friend of mine has frequent problems with his toe and they can literally not afford to get him to a doctor so he always has to self-operate on it. Like how is this even a thing? Are so many Americans masochistic that they'd prefer to spend the rest of their lives in debt if they e.g. accidentally shoot their foot off with one of their guns rather than have confidence that if they get hurt, they won't have to worry about living comfortably afterwards? Somebody help me understand :([/QUOTE] Marx was shockingly good at explaining it. In the United States it boils down to this notion that, if you work hard enough, you can be one of the elite. One of the wealthy. You can be the bourgeoisie. Which is, of course, generally utter bullshit. Hard work has effectively zero bearing on your ultimate wealth status. People believe it though. People believe it to their core. So, when you ask Americans to take action against the wealthy, you run into a problem. Americans have been taught to believe from an early age that they can be one of the wealthy, so they view it as screwing themselves over. This, coupled with a variety of other issues, leads to some strange choices. The Republican party is predominately comprised of the people who would most benefit from additional government services, and yet they viciously fight against it.[/quote] I'm sorry. I don't know how to fight it. This little weird portion of our society is why we cause so much economic trouble for the rest of you, but we can't seem to strip this cancer out of our society.
[QUOTE=wystan;49561029]Uh no? If they want to do that they should consider Philanthropy there is a reason they should be respected so much, because they are wealthy and aren't forced to help others, but they CHOOSE to.[/QUOTE] There is a reason why scholarships are seen as a way to evade taxes, in some countries. Philanthropy is noble, on paper, but it needs to be regulated. Hard.
[QUOTE=wystan;49560817] Also taxing rich people because they are rich is wrong, why should they be punished for being successful?[/QUOTE] [I]Really[/I]? "Punished for being successful?" What textbooks did you have again, [I]Introduction to Political Platitudes[/I]? You can argue about the economic effects of changing the minimum wage all you want, and I might even be convinced to agree, but don't paint trying to get funds from where most of the money as some kind of crippling, vindictive punishment, whereas all the people being punished for [I]not [/I]being successful is hardly worth mentioning.
[QUOTE=wystan;49560636]Sanders would ruin this country though, he wants to double the minimum wage which would be terrible for small businesses, Sanders' complete lack of understanding of basic economics and is infuriating and the amount of my peers all for Sanders because DUDE FREE STUFF is mind-boggling. But at least when he doesn't get the nomination the resulting butthurt will be glorious.[/QUOTE] Begone you right winged daemon and be banished to the depths of the Deep South. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling / Shitposting" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
It is literally stealing, how is it right to take money from people, just because of the amount they own? I'm not a wealthy person but this constant demonization of the wealthy for use as a scapegoat is baffling to me. [QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;49561104]Begone you right winged daemon and be banished to the depths of the Deep South.[/QUOTE] I thought you liberals were supposed to be tolerant of other opinions, and I live in Central Texas so I was raised in the blue dot in a red state, I used to be one of you people.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49561118]Do you not understand the concept of taxes at all? Please find out what taxes are and what they are for before you spout off anything else. I mean shit dude, did you even read my post?[/QUOTE] Of course we all pay taxes, I am well aware of what taxes are the purpose they serve. But the idea of taxing the rich more just because they are rich is wrong
[QUOTE=wystan;49561127]Of course we all pay taxes, I am well aware of what taxes are the purpose they serve. But the idea of taxing the rich more just because they are rich is wrong[/QUOTE] The rich should be taxed more not because they have more money than the rest of the nation, but because that money [I]has[/I] to come from [I]somewhere[/I]. Ergo, they [B]generate[/B] more money, and thus should be taxed accordingly. It's the same deal for large corporations and whatnot. The more money you [B]generate[/B], the more taxes you have to pay. Also... [QUOTE=wystan;49561056]Dude you've got to stop comparing us to other nations, American Exceptionalism is 100% a real thing, this is a complicated issue because America is not comparable to any European nation because of our population, power, wealth, and more importantly what we spend that wealth on.[/QUOTE] American exceptionalism needs to die. America is not exceptional. It's a country with a [B]shitload[/B] of issues that got into a position of global power because of circumstances. It's not unique, nor it is a model every other country should emulate. No offense
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49561142]If you understand taxes, then you know why those with more money pay more, because they got more use out of the system.[/QUOTE] You are aware that Sanders wants to hike taxes for everybody right? Did you watch the debate yesterday, he dodged the questions regarding it so hard. [QUOTE=T553412;49561153]The rich should be taxed more not because they have more money than the rest of the nation, but because that money [I]has[/I] to come from [I]somewhere[/I]. Ergo, they [B]generate[/B] more money, and thus should be taxed accordingly. It's the same deal for large corporations and whatnot. The more money you [B]generate[/B], the more taxes you have to pay.[/QUOTE] Taxing corporations and businesses is a different thing, I agree with that, but it's also worth noting that they don't get tax returns for those and that includes small business owners. Bernie would chase businesses out of America, just doing more damage
how do you guys expect this to get through congress even an all democrat congress
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49561142]If you understand taxes, then you know why those with more money pay more, because they got more use out of the system.[/QUOTE] Realistically, this isn't true. The poor and middle class use more of the system than anyone else. The rich generally pay for private schools, have their own health insurance, pay for their own services, pay the full price of their college tuition, etc.
[QUOTE=wystan;49561127]Of course we all pay taxes, I am well aware of what taxes are the purpose they serve. But the idea of taxing the rich more just because they are rich is wrong[/QUOTE] For a person with an economics degree, you are woefully uneducated in economics. I'd suggest looking into things called "income equality" and what the proven effects of it is. I'd also recommend looking into how "progressive taxes" and "regressive taxes" interact with quality of life and aforementioned income equality. Optionally, you should also reread/burn your textbooks. For the record, people do not want to tax the rich "just because" they are rich.
[QUOTE=wystan;49561109]It is literally stealing, how is it right to take money from people, just because of the amount they own? I'm not a wealthy person but this constant demonization of the wealthy for use as a scapegoat is baffling to me.[/QUOTE] Well unless you're an anarchist, in which case there'd be no point in continuing this conversation, you're clearly okay with some amount of stealing, on account of governments needing money to exist. So the problem isn't really [I]us [/I]"scapegoating" the rich and taking their money because we hate them so much, it's [I]you [/I]who idolize them to the point that even trying to have them share a somewhat equal burden, while still maintaining a standard of living astronomically better than the rest of the world, might as well be a bloody proletariat uprising.
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;49561179]For a person with an economics degree, you are woefully uneducated in economics. I'd suggest looking into things called "income equality" and what the proven effects of it is. I'd also recommend looking into how "progressive taxes" and "regressive taxes" interact with quality of life and aforementioned income equality. Optionally, you should also reread/burn your textbooks. For the record, people do not want to tax the rich "just because" they are rich.[/QUOTE] Spread the wealth right? I know these taxes already exist, in all honestly the biggest thing I learned in my studies that in the case of the economy, the best course of action is to not fucking touch it, it's honestly quite remarkable how it fixes itself, the big exception being market shocks brought on by a crisis or disaster, obviously then there needs to be intervention. [QUOTE=Mingebox;49561200]Well unless you're an anarchist, in which case there'd be no point in continuing this conversation, you're clearly okay with some amount of stealing, on account of governments needing money to exist. So the problem isn't really [I]us [/I]"scapegoating" the rich and taking their money because we hate them so much, it's [I]you [/I]who idolize them to the point that even trying to have them share a somewhat equal burden, while still maintaining a standard of living astronomically better than the rest of the world, might as well be a bloody proletariat uprising.[/QUOTE] I'm not against taxes or something crazy, Anarchism is just as dumb, if not dumber, than Socialism/Communism. But if you listen to any Sanders rhetoric that most of FP just eats up, Sanders seriously scapegoats "the 1%" as much as Trump does China, seriously did anyone watch the debate yesterday?
[QUOTE=Mingebox;49561200]Well unless you're an anarchist, in which case there'd be no point in continuing this conversation, you're clearly okay with some amount of stealing, on account of governments needing money to exist. So the problem isn't really [I]us [/I]"scapegoating" the rich and taking their money because we hate them so much, it's [I]you [/I]who idolize them to the point that even trying to have them share a somewhat equal burden, while still maintaining a standard of living astronomically better than the rest of the world, might as well be a bloody proletariat uprising.[/QUOTE] I don't know for sure, but it seems like he would be happy with a flat tax system where nobody pays more because of how much they have. You're strawmanning by saying that you just want them to share a "somewhat equal burden," when he's arguing against having them pay way more than an equal burden. He also never said you hate them.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49561212]I don't know for sure, but it seems like he would be happy with a flat tax system where nobody pays more because of how much they have. You're strawmanning by saying that you just want them to share a "somewhat equal burden," when he's arguing against having them pay way more than an equal burden.[/QUOTE] But flat taxes aren't an equal burden.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;49561236]But flat taxes aren't an equal burden.[/QUOTE] Care to explain how everyone paying exactly the same percent of their income isn't equal? I'm not even saying that flat taxes are the right idea. I just don't see how you can say that it isn't inherently equal.
Yea flat taxes are a mess too, and there are not an equal burden at all lmao [QUOTE=sgman91;49561241]Care to explain how everyone paying exactly the same percent of their income isn't equal? I'm not even saying that flat taxes are the right idea. I just don't see how you can say that it isn't inherently equal.[/QUOTE] Just a crazy oversimplified example, if the flat tax rate is 20% and you have two people one with an income of 1,000$ and one with an income of 1,000,000$, one person pays 200$ and the other 200,000$, this is incredibly disproportionate and no where close an equal burden, the "ability" for the wealthier person to take the loss is irrelevant
[QUOTE=sgman91;49561241]Care to explain how everyone paying exactly the same percent of their income isn't equal?[/QUOTE] Uh, because income does linearly scale with cost of living? Because some people can't afford to pay a single cent because they don't even have the money for all their basic necessities, and some people could live lavishly even without 80% of their income?
[QUOTE=Mingebox;49561272]Uh, because income does linearly scale with cost of living? Because some people can't afford to pay a single cent because they don't even have the money for all their basic necessities, and some people could live lavishly even without 80% of their income?[/QUOTE] I see, we're talking about different things. You're talking about equality of result and I'm talking about legal equality. Of course you're right that the result isn't equal. I wouldn't even try to argue against that. [editline]18th January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;49561243]Yea flat taxes are a mess too, and there are not an equal burden at all lmao Just a crazy oversimplified example, if the flat tax rate is 20% and you have two people one with an income of 1,000$ and one with an income of 1,000,000$, one person pays 200$ and the other 200,000$, this is incredibly disproportionate and no where close an equal burden, the "ability" for the wealthier person to take the loss is irrelevant[/QUOTE] I'm confused by your position. Here you seem to be saying that we should take more money from wealthier people because they are wealthier, but earlier you specifically said we shouldn't do that. Can you clarify what position you support because I must be missing some nuance?
[QUOTE=wystan;49561109]It is literally stealing, how is it right to take money from people, just because of the amount they own? I'm not a wealthy person but this constant demonization of the wealthy for use as a scapegoat is baffling to me. I thought you liberals were supposed to be tolerant of other opinions, and I live in Central Texas so I was raised in the blue dot in a red state, I used to be one of you people.[/QUOTE] You have got a poor definition of stealing, these people practical bought [b]our[/b] politicians through corporate lobbies and campaign contributions, while evading taxes by storing wealth overseas so they do not have to pay a penny to any government while the middle class pays most of the taxes to keep the government operating. The legislative branch, and the judicial branch pretty much represents and answers the billionaires while they can stay taking money from [b]we[/b] the people and walking away with the money that should be contributed to the government that protects them. I think that when someone hoards and refuses to give anything to anyone else when there are many people who go to bed hungry is downright stealing from the U.S, a livable society. This a government for [b]all[/b] of us, not the government of a few wealthy billionaires, the billionaires deserve to pay us back for the amount of damage they are causing to the middle class families and the poor every passing day. Your opinion is considered by a liberal now, but I have to add that it really isn't a well thought out opinion.
[QUOTE=lolo;49561379]while evading taxes by storing wealth overseas so they do not have to pay a penny to any government while the middle class pays most of the taxes to keep the government operating.[/QUOTE] Both statements here are false. The wealthy store money overseas because they already paid taxes in the a foreign country and don't want to bring it back to the US and get double taxed and the wealthy pay the majority of taxes already.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49561397]They used the system getting to that point, though. They've profited more than anyone else from it.[/QUOTE] How are you drawing the connection between their wealth and using the system to get that wealth? Generally, people get their wealth by starting a very successful business, making extremely good investments, or working a high paying career like a CEO. None of these paths take more out of the system than any other person, and they add a whole lot more into the system through taxes, employment, etc. than someone in the lower or middle classes.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49561413]None of it would be possible without the system. By system, I mean infrastructure that is up-kept by taxes, is that what you mean too?[/QUOTE] Right, but everyone uses that. These people didn't use it more, they just used it more effectively.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49561420]If you own a business, you're using infrastructure much more than normal citizens[/QUOTE] You're also contributing WAY more into the system through taxes, wages, etc. Essentially, all the taxes paid by the employees are also coming, indirectly, from the business owner. Take roads, for example. Most places pay for roads through a gas tax, and a business that uses the roads more through trucking would inherently also pay more gas tax automatically.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49561431]Not enough though taxes apparantly[/QUOTE] The lack of resources comes from the societal cost of those who need government assistance (Medicare, for example), not the usage of public resources by the wealthy. If you want to argue that the wealthy need to pay more, that's fine, but it's not because they cost or use the system more. It's because you need the wealthy to pay for those at the bottom and middle who can't pay for the services they use.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49561391]Both statements here are false. The wealthy store money overseas because they already paid taxes in the a foreign country and don't want to bring it back to the US and get double taxed and the wealthy pay the majority of taxes already.[/QUOTE] Take a look at the British Virgin islands or the Cayman islands, these are some countries that are known to be "Tax havens" that allow corporations/businesses to evade paying higher taxes in countries they make a lot of money in. Sure they still pay taxes in some countries, but they are paying [b]less[/b] in taxes all together, so more wealth still in their possession.
[QUOTE=lolo;49561466]Take a look at the British Virgin islands or the Cayman islands, these some countries that are known to be "Tax havens" that allow corporations/businesses to evade paying higher taxes in countries they make a lot of money in. Sure they still pay taxes in some countries, but they are paying [B]less[/B] in taxes all together, so more wealth still in their pockets.[/QUOTE] Yes, they pay less taxes because the US has the highest corporate taxes in the world. The companies would have to be absolute idiots to bring their money back into the US and pay an additional 30+% for essentially no reason after already paying taxes in the country that the money was made.
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