Islam now is allot like Christianity 600 years ago, just not organized by a central church.
It's being followed very literally, that's the problem. The followers need to liberalize, and banning it isn't going to do any good.
[QUOTE=Auto Taco;42972083]Look at how the Ottoman Empire spread Islam, it sure as hell wasn't peaceful. Btw, Vlad the Impaler more or less was protecting his "kingdom" from the Ottoman Conquest.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, if protecting your kingdom looks like brutally murdering and torturing random people to the point where historical paintings literally display your kingdom as a forest of people on spikes, then yes, I'd totally call his actions justified in order to defend his kingdom. No.
[QUOTE=draugur;42972342]Yeah, if protecting your kingdom looks like brutally murdering and torturing random people to the point where historical paintings literally display your kingdom as a forest of people on spikes, then yes, I'd totally call his actions justified in order to defend his kingdom. No.[/QUOTE]
i think using the actions of vlad the impaler as a criticism of christianity is as silly as using muhammeds marriage to a 10 year old as a criticism of islam
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;42972291]Please, don't speak if you don't know....
Like Yawmwen has said, they are responsible for keeping/preserve knowledge. And in fact, thanks to philosophical developments within the Catholicism we were able to jump into the "Enlightenment". This in change didn't happen in Asia, which was actually on par or much better than europe around the 1400-1500. After nominalism and the revitalization of averroism in Italy (Padua medics) which led to people being much much more interested in maths and science coupled with Francis Bacon inductive method, BANG! Science bitch!
[B]What the Church can be accused of, is of keeping said knowledge within monasteries.[/B] But anyway, I don't know how you would like to have everyone learn when you have to make books by hand, page by page. Coincidentally, all this happens just after the print is invented.
What did the first jews believed? If I properly recall, they thought no matter what you did, you were going to be doomed for eternity. Sheol was that?
how fucked up that can be, uh?
And it is an ideal of faith, prosperity and purpose DEPENDING on the general thought of the time and about what religion we're talking about. If we place Christianity-Catholicism in this time frame....many people will say the opposite. However, why did it spread like that? Why people accepted it so quickly, even though it had many heresies/splinter groups? Now, how do you explain the same for Christianity-Protestantism/Reformism during the 1500's? It spread like fire on many countries, and it is also believed that it helped create Capitalism (Max weber) specially puritanism and zwingilism (Never get this one right)[/QUOTE]
The Hebrews believed that their purpose on Earth was to create a kingdom of heaven on Earth, that was their purpose, along with serving god, they did believe in an afterlife. Nowhere in the Bible does it say about the Jews that no matter what you are going to hell. The reason the protestantism spread so fast was that it was trying to preach that Catholosicm was far to strict and was beginning to stray from the teachings of Jesus Christ.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42972192]oh yeah this is why they burned all of those old books and writings by the greeks and romans
what "evil pagan knowledge" are you talking about btw i didnt know about this
[/QUOTE]
There was a lot of knowledge that both sides preserved, but there are aspects that when the Christians came to power in Rome, they destroyed a lot of text relating to old Pagan practices and knowledge because at the time, pagans were considered instruments of Satan (This is still a belief people have as well). The church actually burned a lot of books containing important knowledge because they also contained pagan beliefs or were written by pagans. You have to remember that Pagans were slaughtered around this time because they were considered a threat to the empire. This was pretty much because while Pagan Rome believed that you can believe in whatever you want, as long as you pay the Roman gods some respect, Christian-Rome was of course built on the idea of there only being one god, thus you either believed in their god, or you were pretty much an animal. Pagan-Rome was far more advanced in terms of culture because of this religious tolerance.
People agreeing with this, please take some time to read what Islam is actually about, thank you!
[QUOTE]he Hebrews believed that their purpose on Earth was to create a kingdom of heaven on Earth, that was their purpose, along with serving god, they did believe in an afterlife. Nowhere in the Bible does it say about the Jews that no matter what you are going to hell. The reason the protestantism spread so fast was that it was trying to preach that Catholosicm was far to strict and was beginning to stray from the teachings of Jesus Christ[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol[/url]
This is what I meant. I mean, think about the logic: If I go to this shit hole, no matter what I do, why should I care about behaving well?
Funnily, it spread like fire on countries which had their Kings take over the spiritual role of the general population.
[QUOTE]This was pretty much because while Pagan Rome believed that you can believe in whatever you want, as long as you pay the Roman gods some respect, Christian-Rome was of course built on the idea of there only being one god, thus you either believed in their god, or you were pretty much an animal. Pagan-Rome was far more advanced in terms of culture because of this religious tolerance.[/QUOTE]
What? No, they had to reverend the Emperor as some form of earthly deity which went way agaisnt Christian thoughts.
Guess what happened if you didn't pay the Emperor the respect you owed him...
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42972379]i think using the actions of vlad the impaler as a criticism of christianity is as silly as using muhammeds marriage to a 10 year old as a criticism of islam[/QUOTE]
No it's not. That's comparing the acts of the Prophet of a religion to that of one ruler of a kingdom.
You ever heard the story of the two priests that were sent to Transylvania? One was impaled as he said the acts were horrible and condemned them, the other was set free as he said Vlad was free to do these things as he was God's chosen ruler of the land.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;42972422][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol[/url]
This is what I meant. I mean, think about the logic: If I go to this shit hole, no matter what I do, why should I care about behaving well?
Funnily, it spread like fire on countries which had their Kings take over the spiritual role of the general population.[/QUOTE]
Well you figure that may been percieved at the time, The py may have gotten messages from "God" telling them otherwise, however I have never heard of the Sheol in the Bible (Ive read most of the old testament.) And really though Judaisim was only popular amongst those living in cannan and the area
[QUOTE=draugur;42972396]There was a lot of knowledge that both sides preserved, but there are aspects that when the Christians came to power in Rome, they destroyed a lot of text relating to old Pagan practices and knowledge because at the time, pagans were considered instruments of Satan (This is still a belief people have as well). The church actually burned a lot of books containing important knowledge because they also contained pagan beliefs or were written by pagans.[/quote]
like?
[quote]You have to remember that Pagans were slaughtered around this time because they were considered a threat to the empire. This was pretty much because while Pagan Rome believed that you can believe in whatever you want, as long as you pay the Roman gods some respect, Christian-Rome was of course built on the idea of there only being one god, thus you either believed in their god, or you were pretty much an animal. Pagan-Rome was far more advanced in terms of culture because of this religious tolerance.[/QUOTE]
unless you happened to be christian, jewish, or of a barbarian religion
also what do you mean they had an advanced culture, they had people fight to the death in front of crowds for sport lmfao
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;42972221]Religion is an ideal of faith, prosperity, and purpose. It gives people a feeling that the world isnt as terrible as it is percieved to be. It helps people be at ease, without religion people would more than likely have been at each others throuts constantly.
[editline]24th November 2013[/editline]
That is a very biased, ignorant, and prejudice response, Muhammad lived nearly fifteen hundren years ago, and this was deemed acceptable at time, You are holding something people did over a milenia ago against them now, Get The Fuck Out[/QUOTE]
Most Islamic countries still deem this acceptable. That and mutilation of females genitalia
[QUOTE=draugur;42972432]No it's not. That's comparing the acts of the Prophet of a religion to that of one ruler of a kingdom.
You ever heard the story of the two priests that were sent to Transylvania? One was impaled as he said the acts were horrible and condemned them, the other was set free as he said Vlad was free to do these things as he was God's chosen ruler of the land.[/QUOTE]
what about poland-lithuania? do you have similar criticisms
[QUOTE=Killergam;42972452]Most Islamic countries still deem this acceptable. That and mutilation of females genitalia[/QUOTE]
Yes, but only a small percenntage of Muslims actually marry girls a fourth of their age, You cant demean an entore Religion, ethnicity, or anything for what a small percentage do
[QUOTE=draugur;42972432]No it's not. That's comparing the acts of the Prophet of a religion to that of one ruler of a kingdom.
You ever heard the story of the two priests that were sent to Transylvania? One was impaled as he said the acts were horrible and condemned them, the other was set free as he said Vlad was free to do these things as he was God's chosen ruler of the land.[/QUOTE]
i just think it's silly because vlad didn't do the things he did because he was christian, he did them because he was a nut. i don't think you'd have to look very hard to find acts just as horrific committed by muslim leaders, or pagan leaders, or any leaders that prescribed to any religion
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42972445]like?
unless you happened to be christian, jewish, or of a barbarian religion
also what do you mean they had an advanced culture, they had people fight to the death in front of crowds for sport lmfao[/QUOTE]
Considering the idea of blood sport was pretty much fine until the collapse of the Roman Empire, that's a moot point. Like? Lets try pretty much the entire folk religion of the Germanic people. There's a massive wealth of beliefs that were destroyed by the Catholics because it was considered "Witchcraft."
Also Pagan-Rome had a massive tolerance to all religions, so long as they payed homage to the state religion, which being Christian or Jewish conflicted with. In comparison your level of religion tolerance was incredibly tiny after that, since you pretty much had to be one of those two religions, (Hint, probably not Jewish since they were persecuted at this time as well.) Lets also not forget how German Catholics slaughtered Jews during the times of the Black Death because they believed the Jews were the cause of the plague.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42972445]like?
unless you happened to be christian, jewish, or of a barbarian religion
also what do you mean they had an advanced culture, they had people fight to the death in front of crowds for sport lmfao[/QUOTE]
yeah and this, i think it's silly to condemn how horrific vlad the impalers actions were while talking up the roman empire, who also considered watching christians getting eaten by lions a great day out and routinely forced entire populations into slavery
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42972484]i just think it's silly because vlad didn't do the things he did because he was christian, he did them because he was a nut. i don't think you'd have to look very hard to find acts just as horrific committed by muslim leaders, or pagan leaders, or any leaders that prescribed to any religion[/QUOTE]
No, but he used religion to keep his place of power, which is why he is a valid comparison point. Just because other religious leaders did it, doesn't suddenly excuse him for his acts.
[QUOTE=draugur;42972502]No, but he used religion to keep his place of power, which is why he is a valid comparison point. Just because other religious leaders did it, doesn't suddenly excuse him for his acts.[/QUOTE]
that's because religion is a tool of domination, any religion can be, has been, still is, and will be used for this purpose
[QUOTE=Sokrates;42971919]I am almost more horrified at the ratings that the OP got
[img]http://puu.sh/5spIL.png[/img]
... seriously?[/QUOTE]
but ratings like this make it easy to see who's a joke
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42972495]yeah and this, i think it's silly to condemn how horrific vlad the impalers actions were while talking up the roman empire, who also considered watching christians getting eaten by lions a great day out and routinely forced entire populations into slavery[/QUOTE]
So you're saying because they were persecuted before it is suddenly okay for them to persecute people?
On that same track of thought Israel isn't doing anything wrong because Jews were persecuted by Nazi Germany.
Please correct me if that's not what you're saying, because that's what it sounds like to me.
[QUOTE=draugur;42972493]Considering the idea of blood sport was pretty much fine until the collapse of the Roman Empire, that's a moot point. Like? Lets try pretty much the entire folk religion of the Germanic people. There's a massive wealth of beliefs that were destroyed by the Catholics because it was considered "Witchcraft."
Also Pagan-Rome had a massive tolerance to all religions, so long as they payed homage to the state religion, which being Christian or Jewish conflicted with. In comparison your level of religion tolerance was incredibly tiny after that, since you pretty much had to be one of those two religions, (Hint, probably not Jewish since they were persecuted at this time as well.) Lets also not forget how German Catholics slaughtered Jews during the times of the Black Death because they believed the Jews were the cause of the plague.[/QUOTE]
Prejudice, and intolerance that happens everywhere and everyone does it you cant call an entire religion out for being one of the two
[editline]24th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42972506]that's because religion is a tool of domination, any religion can be, has been, still is, and will be used for this purpose[/QUOTE]
When it is used in the wrong way yes, you cannot say that all relgion is is a tool of domination that preposterous
[QUOTE=draugur;42972493]Considering the idea of blood sport was pretty much fine until the collapse of the Roman Empire, that's a moot point. Like? Lets try pretty much the entire folk religion of the Germanic people. There's a massive wealth of beliefs that were destroyed by the Catholics because it was considered "Witchcraft."
Also Pagan-Rome had a massive tolerance to all religions, so long as they payed homage to the state religion, which being Christian or Jewish conflicted with. In comparison your level of religion tolerance was incredibly tiny after that, since you pretty much had to be one of those two religions, (Hint, probably not Jewish since they were persecuted at this time as well.) Lets also not forget how German Catholics slaughtered Jews during the times of the Black Death because they believed the Jews were the cause of the plague.[/QUOTE]
i just dont get how you can say "rome was religiously tolerant" and go on about how nice it was compared to afterwards
face it, life in the roman empire was pretty shit. theres a reason why it collapsed, and thats because nobody wanted to keep it going
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42972539]i just dont get how you can say "rome was religiously tolerant" and go on about how nice it was compared to afterwards
face it, life in the roman empire was pretty shit. theres a reason why it collapsed, and thats because nobody wanted to keep it going[/QUOTE]
The Roman Empire collapsed because people found better ways of making money other than soldiering and became lazy, Rome was forced to constantly hire mercanaries (many being barbarians) to protect their borders from the ever growing barbarian hordes
[QUOTE]When it is used in the wrong way yes, you cannot say that all relgion is is a tool of domination that preposterous
[/QUOTE]
His line of thought assumes that mostly, all forms of institutions are -in some way or another- a tool of domination used by the upper classes to keep the lower classes in check.
Its all about power baby, nothing is honest here.
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;42972560]The Roman Empire collapsed because people found better ways of making money other than soldiering and became lazy, Rome was forced to constantly hire mercanaries (many being barbarians) to protect their borders from the ever growing barbarian hordes[/QUOTE]
rome started to decline from the first emperors onwards
for four centuries they had demographic decline, decreasing tax revenue, the central government becoming bloated and more inept, it goes on
roman society was too complex to retain as the population declined and resources required to keep the system going became increasingly scarce. the barbarian invasions just delivered the killing blow
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42972584]rome started to decline from the first emperors onwards
for four centuries they had demographic decline, decreasing tax revenue, the central government becoming bloated and more inept, it goes on
roman society was too complex to retain as the population declined and resources required to keep the system going became increasingly scarce. the barbarian invasions just delivered the killing blow[/QUOTE]
Let's not forget all the inside shit and conspirations going on.
This won't create more extremists or anything...
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;42972578]His line of thought assumes that mostly, all forms of institutions are -in some way or another- a tool of domination used by the upper classes to keep the lower classes in check.
Its all about power baby, nothing is honest here.[/QUOTE]
That is do unfortunately do to human nature, those who stray from the teachings of few who are truly honest become filled with greed and lust for power, unfortunately religiom can be morphed in this way yes but to say that this is all religion is for is utterly ridiculous
[editline]24th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42972584]rome started to decline from the first emperors onwards
for four centuries they had demographic decline, decreasing tax revenue, the central government becoming bloated and more inept, it goes on
roman society was too complex to retain as the population declined and resources required to keep the system going became increasingly scarce. the barbarian invasions just delivered the killing blow[/QUOTE]
I thought the Roman Empire really didnt begin to fall until after Emperor Hadrian died, While he didnt expand Romes borders he was able to maintain them and acomplish many feats of infastructure like Hadrians wall
And back on topic, if they wanted to wipe away Islamism, then the way to go is just to open knowledge to everyone. Basically, the more educated and informed people are, the less they tend to follow a religion. But it is a long damn process, usually takes more than a couple of generations.
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