• Boy who shot intruder says suspect 'cried like a little baby'
    468 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Hellduck;50228743]You're really stretching the definition of immediate if you include leaving-and-coming-back-later.[/QUOTE] A threat is a threat, and treating it as if it were anything else doesn't make sense. Telling an 11-year-old kid "fuck you, I'm going to kill you" is pretty fucking threatening. [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=plunger435;50228741]I don't think you understand what immediate means then.[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand what a threat is exactly.
[QUOTE=Govna;50228730]...but the problem in the first place is that you don't know if he's an immediate threat or not. In this case, the guy made threats against the kid previously. There wasn't anyway to tell if he was just temporarily retreating and would come back or what. Nothing wrong was done here, and thank fuck we've got a lot of people rightfully supporting this kid. He did an excellent job defending himself under the circumstances and showed a lot of courage despite the situation.[/QUOTE] There's no mention of the thief having a firearm or anything like that. He's also running away. If he did come back then yeah shoot the shit out of him but he's probably not going to come back before the police arrive. Ending a life based on buts and what ifs simply isn't acceptable IMO. What if I'm driving around and some road rage happens over some stupid incident and the guy say's he's going to kill me? Should I kill him just in case he decides to follow through?
[QUOTE=Govna;50228757]A threat is a threat, and treating it as if it were anything else doesn't make sense. Telling a 12-year-old kid "fuck you, I'm going to kill you" is pretty fucking threatening. [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] I don't think you understand what a threat is exactly.[/QUOTE] You were the one who said immediately includes leaving all together and coming back at a later date.
[QUOTE=Govna;50228757]A threat is a threat, and treating it as if it were anything else doesn't make sense. Telling a 12-year-old kid "fuck you, I'm going to kill you" is pretty fucking threatening. [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] I don't think you understand what a threat is exactly.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but not all threats are immediate. No force was being used, the guy was leaving, the threat was notional.
Your life remains in danger from the moment someone has threatened (while committing a crime against you) to kill you. If they were only temporarily spooked by the sight of a firearm, they [I]will be back[/I] as this "victim" already had been before. If he's already returned several times and is actively threatening to kill you, he has, at that stage, forfeited his life. Sorry - I'm going to side with the 11 year old who [I]wasn't[/I] repeatedly burglarizing and terrorizing the same home on this one.
[QUOTE=Govna;50228757]A threat is a threat, and treating it as if it were anything else doesn't make sense. Telling a 12-year-old kid "fuck you, I'm going to kill you" is pretty fucking threatening. [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] I don't think you understand what a threat is exactly.[/QUOTE] If you run outside and fire 11 stray bullets into the streets to stop a robber who's already leaving your property you're a bigger threat to the general public than he is.
[QUOTE=plunger435;50228787]If you run outside and fire 11 stray bullets into the streets to stop a robber who's already leaving your property you're a bigger threat to the general public than he is.[/QUOTE] The kid is 11, I am not tremendously surprised he didn't hit the guy first try or know when to stop shooting.
[QUOTE=Govna;50228747]Elaborate. [B]This isn't the United Kingdom we're talking about here, this is the United States.[/B] Our "rowdiest areas"... go beyond being rowdy. They're fucking brutal. Also, if you've actually been in such dangerous situations and you claim to have been and have never once been afraid, then you're honestly behaving stupidly. Not to say that you should let fear get the better of you (you shouldn't), but fear is important to have because of its capacity to make us more cautious of our surroundings (including the people) and able to react faster if/when we need to.[/QUOTE] well there you go, I can't argue now. as for the fear thing... it's one thing to react quickly, another thing to react [I]properly.[/I]
[QUOTE=Morgen;50228760]There's no mention of the thief having a firearm or anything like that. He's also running away. If he did come back then yeah shoot the shit out of him but he's probably not going to come back before the police arrive. Ending a life based on buts and what if's simply isn't acceptable IMO.[/quote] The kid didn't know that at the time. That's all that counts. Similarly, if you were in this situation, you wouldn't know if he did or not either. Neither would I. All you know is he's broken into your house, he's cursed at you, he's threatened to kill you, he's been stealing stuff... that's all that matters. There is by that point trouble, it has been instigated by this stranger, and you should have the right to defend yourself. So he acts like he's running away... how do you know that's all he's doing? Like I said, maybe he's just running off to get his friends or to his car to get a weapon or something. He might come back. You don't know. All you know is that he's a stranger in your house who has made threats against you after breaking in. And as long as he's on your property, then you should have the right to use force against him. If he dies, so be it. If he is only wounded, so be it. If you can't do anything to him and he gets away unscathed, so be it. You should have a right to react as you see fit in that situation though, because it's your life and your property that are in jeopardy. Possible the lives of your family members are at risk as well. And the other thing you know is that if you kill him, then there is absolutely no threat any longer. There will never be another threat to worry about from that particular individual. It's entirely acceptable to react this way; again, the social contract here is simple: don't start trouble, there won't be trouble. Don't break into people's houses, don't steal from them, don't threaten to kill them and act menacing towards them... and there won't be an issue. If you for some reason cannot abide by this very simple social contract, then you deserve no guarantees whatsoever. You might get killed, and that's all there is to it. You started this shit, now you're going to pay for it with your life. There's nobody to blame in that situation but yourself for breaking in and causing all this in the first place. [QUOTE=Morgen;50228760]What if I'm driving around and some road rage happens over some stupid incident and the guy say's he's going to kill me? Should I kill him just in case he decides to follow through?[/QUOTE] That depends on whether or not the guy shows any signs that he might, i.e. he opens your door and tries to drag you out of your car. Or in this case, if he has broken into your home, you have no idea who the fuck he is, and he's saying he's going to kill you.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50228798]The kid is 11, I am not tremendously surprised he didn't hit the guy first try or know when to stop shooting.[/QUOTE] The kid doesn't know better, but Govna is, I assume, an adult who knows better than to do this.
[QUOTE=plunger435;50228812]The kid doesn't know better, but Govna is, I assume, an adult who knows better than to do this.[/QUOTE] I'm an adult - in the kid's situation I would probably have shot - but I wouldn't have missed 11 times.
[QUOTE=plunger435;50228787]If you run outside and fire 11 stray bullets into the streets to stop a robber who's already leaving your property you're a bigger threat to the general public than he is.[/QUOTE] Not really, no. This kid got the guy and did exceptionally well considering he's only 11-years-old. Not only did he stand up for himself in the moment, but he also made sure that the threat was almost entirely neutralized by wounded the perpetrator in the leg. You're over-exaggerating his actions here and not accounting for any of the details of the situation.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50228756]I could if I felt like digging through an archive that doesn't exist. But here's some choice cuts, fresh off the deli; The implication here being that the criminal is in the process of fucking off (how would they come back if they're already there?), verbal threat? Fuck it just shoot them right there. Shit dude, you're on a roll today, "fuck it just kill them as soon as they break in lol". Good timing lad! Adding you to the collection of lunatics! If a burglar doesn't just pack it in and flee or stay put until help arrives, yeah, I can understand actually taking them on as a threat because at that point they are probably willing to fight their way out. But to post shit like "not taking any chances, home invaders get shot" is totally asinine. Someone breaking in should be given warnings, if they surrender or flee that's it, end of story. Preventing the needless loss of life is kinda something you should strive for after all.[/QUOTE] How do you know they are fleeing though? Oh wait you don't lmao. How do you know they have a gun? Oh WAIT, you don't! sorry bud when you break into my house I'm not going to take any chances. Call me a lunatic all you want but I'd rather protect my family than have them killed because I ASSUMED they would fuck off and never come back.
Does nobody think that maybe a kid doesn't have the critical thinking skills that if he's told by his parents "If someone threatens you, here's where the gun is, protect yourself," that he's not supposed to chase them outside? Like we as adults know that, but as a kid if he's told to protect himself from someone threatening him, I think it's entirely reasonable that he might not know to stop when they leave. He was told to protect himself, and if the man was threatening him, that to the kid will mean shoot him.
[QUOTE=AK'z;50228809]as for the fear thing... it's one thing to react quickly, another thing to react [I]properly.[/I][/QUOTE] Reacting quickly is part of reacting properly. Time/speed are of the essence if you find yourself in a dangerous situation. Seriously, the fact this kid is only 11 and was able to do all of this as well as he did is impressive.
[QUOTE=Govna;50228811]The kid didn't know that at the time. That's all that counts. Similarly, if you were in this situation, you wouldn't know if he did or not either. Neither would I. All you know is he's broken into your house, he's cursed at you, he's threatened to kill you, he's been stealing stuff... that's all that matters. There is by that point trouble, it has been instigated by this stranger, and you should have the right to defend yourself. So he acts like he's running away... how do you know that's all he's doing? Like I said, maybe he's just running off to get his friends or to his car to get a weapon or something. He might come back. You don't know. All you know is that he's a stranger in your house who has made threats against you after breaking in. And as long as he's on your property, then you should have the right to use force against him. If he dies, so be it. If he is only wounded, so be it. If you can't do anything to him and he gets away unscathed, so be it. You should have a right to react as you see fit in that situation though, because it's your life and your property that are in jeopardy. Possible the lives of your family members are at risk as well. And the other thing you know is that if you kill him, then there is absolutely no threat any longer. There will never be another threat to worry about from that particular individual. It's entirely acceptable to react this way; again, the social contract here is simple: don't start trouble, there won't be trouble. Don't break into people's houses, don't steal from them, don't threaten to kill them and act menacing towards them... and there won't be an issue. If you for some reason cannot abide by this very simple social contract, then you deserve no guarantees whatsoever. You might get killed, and that's all there is to it. You started this shit, now you're going to pay for it with your life. There's nobody to blame in that situation but yourself for breaking in and causing all this in the first place. That depends on whether or not the guy shows any signs that he might, i.e. he opens your door and tries to drag you out of your car. Or in this case, if he has broken into your home, you have no idea who the fuck he is, and he's saying he's going to kill you.[/QUOTE] But you do know that he's trying to leave your property since he's walking away from it and outside... Could he come back? Sure he could and then he would be an immediate threat. How is someone leaving and then potentially coming back an immediate threat? All you know is that they are leaving right now.. you don't know that they will come back. What if I do believe they are an immediate threat and I do shoot them and they are only wounded? What if they are still shouting abusive shit while on the floor, and clearly incapable of being a threat any longer? Should I just execute them in case they recover and decide to come back? [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] Your response to the road rage incident also proves my point. Did the robber actually do anything that made his threats to the kid beyond verbal? Not that we know of.
[QUOTE=Govna;50228829]Not really, no. This kid got the guy and did exceptionally well considering he's only 11-years-old. Not only did he stand up for himself in the moment, but he also made sure that the threat was almost entirely neutralized by wounded the perpetrator in the leg. You're over-exaggerating his actions here and not accounting for any of the details of the situation.[/QUOTE] Do you think those eleven bullets you miss just vaporize when they pass the target?
[QUOTE=plunger435;50228855]Do you think those eleven bullets you miss just vaporize when they pass the target?[/QUOTE] Yes what the kid did was wrong I don't see too many people actually "justifying" this as you put it just explaining it, and you're taking those as defenses
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50228864]Yes what the kid did was wrong I don't see too many people actually "justifying" this as you put it just explaining it, and you're taking those as defenses[/QUOTE] Read the posts I'm directly replying to.
how many of the people arguing here have actually shot someone in self defense? I'm interested.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50227456][MEDIA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDWo6m5hbG4[/MEDIA] Life imitates art[/QUOTE] No way in fuck this is real *edit* as in this kid shot a guy on their property in 'self defense' but didn't give the guy a chance to surrender? love how when the kid gets bloodthirsty the presenter is like 'oh he's shy' and pans away quick. I'm all for home defense but this kid is fucked up.
[QUOTE=Ruski v2.0;50228959]No way in fuck this is real *edit* as in this kid shot a guy on their property in 'self defense' but didn't give the guy a chance to surrender? love how when the kid gets bloodthirsty the presenter is like 'oh he's shy' and pans away quick. I'm all for home defense but this kid is fucked up.[/QUOTE] It's an Onion video.
[QUOTE=AK'z;50228910]how many of the people arguing here have actually shot someone in self defense? I'm interested.[/QUOTE] does it really matter? I'm all for self defense but imo the kid in the article is wrong for shooting someone that is fleeing, shooting someone in the back is usually considered murder here in the U.S. But at the same time, if someone breaks into your house you're not legally required to issue a warning. You're legally allowed (depends on the state) to use any force necessary on an intruder, because, as some posters here have said, you can't make any assumptions about the intruder's intentions. I personally assume the worst when/if someone breaks into my house, they may be armed and yeah, odds are they're not looking for a fight or looking to actively kill me, but how could I know? I can't assume one way or the other in a break-in There's too many possibilities in a home invasion to make correct judgement. That being said I would honestly rather not have to kill anyone ever
[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;50227966]yes, because every burglar totally wants to murder you in cold blood. Totally alright to kill them.[/QUOTE] You don't know a persons intent whenever they break into your home, you can't ask them "are you just here to steal my things or kill me, or kill me and steal my things?". If someone threatens to kill you in your home you have every right to stop them.
[QUOTE=Morgen;50227687]Oh well then, if he might of come back with a gun then riddle him with bullets. Infact whenever someone says anything along the line of "I'll kill you" it's better to take justice into your own hands right then and there and kill them, just in case.[/QUOTE] someone is gonna kill u and ur last breath will be "no hard feelings"
[QUOTE=hexpunK;50228756]Shit dude, you're on a roll today, "fuck it just kill them as soon as they break in lol".[/QUOTE] Sounds like a good plan to me; they broke in, they're a potential threat, I see no reason to risk my life--by announcing my presence with anything less than a well-aimed shot--out of concern for the person who decided it was their right to go break into my house and, best case, steal from me.
I just cannot understand why anyone would not want to defend themselves, their property, and even their lives. What kind of mindset is that?
[QUOTE=KommradKommisar;50229574]I just cannot understand why anyone would not want to defend themselves, their property, and even their lives. What kind of mindset is that?[/QUOTE] Because some people don't realize that home defense isn't about keeping a robber from stealing your Xbox, but about defending yourself from someone who may or may not have a deadly weapon. Everyone keeps talking about killing somebody over replaceable goods, which is so immensely missing the point. I know a lot of you guys are in Britain so maybe you can't relate, but in America there's a decent chance the person breaking into your house has a gun.. So politely asking them to leave the residence before you call the authorities or giving them a nice warning shot as a courtesy to the potentially armed robber who broke into your home with the intent to steal and possibly harm you isn't necessarily a safe option. I wouldn't be particularly proud of myself if I shot an intruder, but I'd rather live with that guilt than risk being murdered in my own home just so I could tell people on the internet what a compassionate and understanding person I am. [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] Like, at the end of the day you wouldn't even have to have this grand moral debate if the intruder hadn't broken into your home in the first place. I'm not saying intruders "deserve" to be shot, but I don't think people should be expected to risk their lives just to give the benefit of the doubt to a literal home invader.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;50228504]No that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying you shouldn't shoot people based on a notional threat.[/QUOTE] You also shouldnt break into somebodies fucking house and threaten to kill them.
[QUOTE=Morgen;50227343]Why did the kid shoot a guy that was running away? Clearly wasn't taught that such weapons are to be used to defend your life, not from taking your replaceable inanimate objects.[/QUOTE] Look, fuck the suspect. He threatened the kids life. I have no sympathy and wouldn't have cared if it got worse for him, save for if it hurt the boy's mental health in some way. [editline]29th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Hellduck;50228504]No that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying you shouldn't shoot people based on a notional threat.[/QUOTE] Absolutely judge a person on their threats. If someone is in your home and threatens to kill you, kill them. Why not? If they didn't want to die, they shouldn't have threatened you or broken into your home.
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