[QUOTE=Teddybeer;45249195][IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Territorial_control_of_the_ISIS.svg/1005px-Territorial_control_of_the_ISIS.svg.png[/IMG]
They control some land, and claim some more. So long nobody kicks them out they are a de facto nation. For the stuff they are doing I don't really think they care about international recognition.[/QUOTE]
Last I knew, the map was more accurately portrayed as this:
[img]http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/06/12/Foreign/Graphics/w-Iraq_ISIS.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;45248888]I wonder if the Middle East is ever going to be free from conflict[/QUOTE]
they've been like this for thousands of years
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;45249312]well, europeans kept killing each other for most of history and finally stopped(somewhat) after WW2, asians also kept killing each other and somewhat stopped(less so than euros) after WW2 too, it will probably take something similar to stop war in the middle east.
it certainly would help be better than it currently is, if british and french colonialism hadn't fucked up the place even more during ottoman empire era, drawing lines completely ignoring ethnic/religious differences and the US hadn't given money/weapons to "freedom fighters" during cold war and currently didn't invade nations and afterwards failed miserably in the nation building(hey lets kill or forbid anyone most people who happen to have any sort of nation building experience in iraq because they had some tenuous connection with the previous government, and then put an extremely stupid figurehead in its place = maliki or in the case afghanistan, put a total corrupt idiot like karzai).
seriously, maliki's case is probably the single most impressive case of an incompetent leader in the middle east in decades, the guy has numbers on his side due shias outnumbering sunnis in iraq(65% of all muslims in iraq are shia, 35% are sunni), and he STILL failed to create an army that didn't run in the first sign of trouble, how can someone suck so much, and he even has iran on his side(since they're shia too), and had the US aiding in troop training, holy fuck, this guy is incompetence personified, where did the americans find this guy?
also from a cynical standpoint, its actually better for everyone(everyone but folks in the middle east of course) that ISIS, iraq forces, syrian forces, iran forces keep killing each other).[/QUOTE]
This was really difficult to read. There were a lot of run on sentences (each paragraph is a single sentence) and I kind of lost whatever point you were trying to make
[editline]29th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kondor;45250174]they've been like this for thousands of years[/QUOTE]
I'd say it's the result of so many religions coming from that single region (disagreement), along with their convenient place in the Eurasian trade route (weapons).
he's trying to say europe and asians got over it but he completely ignores the factors in the middle east that are driving the conflicts in the first place
those factors include their lack of economies, overpopulation, restrictive governments, and the massive corruption combined with the truely massive wealth inequality and oil money, its a wonder they lasted this long anyways
the problem in the middle east is not religion, religion exacerbates the problem, but its not the cause of the problem
Don't they need a Caliph to be a Caliphate?
[editline]29th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];45250164']Last I knew, the map was more accurately portrayed as this:
[img]http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/06/12/Foreign/Graphics/w-Iraq_ISIS.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Hardly a difference in those maps. All your map does is not count the empty pointless desert between the cities.
[editline]29th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kondor;45250174]they've been like this for thousands of years[/QUOTE]
It was fairly peaceful when the Ottomans ruled the area.
[editline]29th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;45249824]Do they actually think they can win this war and actually create a functioning nation state?
Do they not realize how badly they will be beaten?[/QUOTE]
IIRC, they're actually collecting taxes from some of the cities they've had under control for a while.
They're functioning as an actual state already.
Wait, does ISIS=ISIL? Or am I missing something?
[QUOTE=Solomon;45250328]Wait, does ISIS=ISIL? Or am I missing something?[/QUOTE]
yes, obama changes names, osama biladen = usama binladen, ISIS = ISIL
(he has better intel than fox news)
first JTJ, then TQJBR, AQI, ISI, ISIS, ISIL and now [B]IS[/B]?
these guys can't agree on a fucking name can they
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;45250225]This was really difficult to read. There were a lot of run on sentences (each paragraph is a single sentence) and I kind of lost whatever point you were trying to make[/QUOTE]
summary: french/british colonialism and the cold war helped create part of the situation we're seeing nowadays, the US failing miserably in nation building in both iraq and afghanistan made it worse, also maliki is the most incompetent dude in all of the middle east in decades, and i have no idea how the US thought it would be wise to trust a guy like that to be leader of iraq, he shouldn't be trusted with a spoon.
I can't fault ISIS on their optimism
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;45249312]well, europeans kept killing each other for most of history and finally stopped(somewhat) after WW2, asians also kept killing each other and somewhat stopped(less so than euros) after WW2 too, it will probably take something similar to stop war in the middle east.
it certainly would help be better than it currently is, if british and french colonialism hadn't fucked up the place even more during ottoman empire era, drawing lines completely ignoring ethnic/religious differences and the US hadn't given money/weapons to "freedom fighters" during cold war and currently didn't invade nations and afterwards failed miserably in the nation building(hey lets kill or forbid anyone most people who happen to have any sort of nation building experience in iraq because they had some tenuous connection with the previous government, and then put an extremely stupid figurehead in its place = maliki or in the case afghanistan, put a total corrupt idiot like karzai).
seriously, maliki's case is probably the single most impressive case of an incompetent leader in the middle east in decades, the guy has numbers on his side due shias outnumbering sunnis in iraq(65% of all muslims in iraq are shia, 35% are sunni), and he STILL failed to create an army that didn't run in the first sign of trouble, how can someone suck so much, and he even has iran on his side(since they're shia too), and had the US aiding in troop training, holy fuck, this guy is incompetence personified, where did the americans find this guy?
also from a cynical standpoint, its actually better for everyone(everyone but folks in the middle east of course) that ISIS, iraq forces, syrian forces, iran forces keep killing each other).[/QUOTE]
Something similar to WW2 to stop war in the Middle East? What?!
To imagine a course of Iraqi history without any British involvement is impossible, the British mandate came into effect nearly a hundred years ago. Either way, if Britain hadn't have been involved it would likely have been some other power; Iraq was already part of the Ottoman empire which was crumbling.
You could have put anyone in charge of Iraq post-Saddam and they would have been in the same poor position, the Iraqi army has been absolutely crushed numerous times, is completely demoralised, and is up against fanatical extremists who utilise suicide bombers and IEDs.
It's not better at all for conflict to continue, the lives of ordinary civilians are being completely ruined as a result. Generations of children will grow up displaced from their homes and on one side or another of a civil war - and no matter how many soldiers or extremists may be killed, those children will just take their place.
Mount and Blade: Middle East edition (could probably be renamed Tank and Gun for the modern setting)
[QUOTE=Rowtree;45248958]Y'hear that boys? Grab your longswords and lets party like its 1098.[/QUOTE]
[i]Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam ![/i]
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;45252098]Mount and Blade: Middle East edition (could probably be renamed Tank and Gun for the modern setting)[/QUOTE]
With how poorly equipped both sides are, I'm pretty sure we could go with Mount & Kalashnikov.
[QUOTE=GunFox;45252143]With how poorly equipped both sides are, I'm pretty sure we could go with Mount & Kalashnikov.[/QUOTE]
Whether or not they're poorly equipped means diddly squat when they are getting closer and closer to [i]having their own country[/i]. If they get any further than this, then they'll soon enough be getting deals with other countries over the oil they're sitting on top of. Then they'll really be raking in the (tens of) millions, maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars. Then they'll have all the money they could ever want to fuel their war machine and their crusade-era mindsets. I am not one for war, and growing up hearing and reading about all of the bloody turmoil in the middle east has made me hope that one day it all just stops. But today, I honestly think we should just steam roll them into oblivion. If nothing is done and we let the Iraqi forces keep getting their asses kicked only for Syria to clean up after them, they are just going to keep spreading, pillaging, and crucifying anyone that isn't shot or beheaded first.
[QUOTE=TAU!;45252172]Whether or not they're poorly equipped means diddly squat when they are getting closer and closer to [i]having their own country[/i]. If they get any further than this, then they'll soon enough be getting deals with other countries over the oil they're sitting on top of. Then they'll really be raking in the (tens of) millions, maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars. Then they'll have all the money they could ever want to fuel their war machine and their crusade-era mindsets. I am not one for war, and growing up hearing and reading about all of the bloody turmoil in the middle east has made me hope that one day it all just stops. But today, I honestly think we should just steam roll them into oblivion. If nothing is done and we let the Iraqi forces keep getting their asses kicked only for Syria to clean up after them, they are just going to keep spreading, pillaging, and crucifying anyone that isn't shot or beheaded first.[/QUOTE]
Idk man they have ford trucks, army patches from fleeing soldiers, and a bilingual guy from Chile. We might want to hide behind our F-22 Super Hornets and MRE receptacles.
[QUOTE=Hollosoulja;45252237]Idk man they have ford trucks, army patches from fleeing soldiers, and a bilingual guy from Chile. We might want to hide behind our F-22 Super Hornets and MRE receptacles.[/QUOTE]
They aren't a bunch of idiot hicks going around in pick-up trucks with wal-mart long rifles and chewing tobacco wedged deep in their gums. These guys are a well trained and well coordinated force to be reckoned with, and it doesn't help that Iraq's military is getting smeared across the ground by them.
[QUOTE=TAU!;45252172]Whether or not they're poorly equipped means diddly squat when they are getting closer and closer to [i]having their own country[/i]. If they get any further than this, then they'll soon enough be getting deals with other countries over the oil they're sitting on top of. Then they'll really be raking in the (tens of) millions, maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars. Then they'll have all the money they could ever want to fuel their war machine and their crusade-era mindsets. I am not one for war, and growing up hearing and reading about all of the bloody turmoil in the middle east has made me hope that one day it all just stops. But today, I honestly think we should just steam roll them into oblivion. If nothing is done and we let the Iraqi forces keep getting their asses kicked only for Syria to clean up after them, they are just going to keep spreading, pillaging, and crucifying anyone that isn't shot or beheaded first.[/QUOTE]
You mention to kill them all, despite common misconception it's not one group.
It's not just ISIS doing the stuff in Iraq, people from Iraq have stated it includes disenfranchised old army members, Batheist from the old regime and general Sunni militants. Its not just a problem of ISIS wanting to make a new regime but its those above groups wanting to be rid of the current, highly corrupt and brutal, one.
Oh yeah and the kurds, they to have been fighting the Iraqi's. Some of their groups have also committed terror attacks in and around turkey.
[QUOTE=TAU!;45252250]They aren't a bunch of idiot hicks going around in pick-up trucks with wal-mart long rifles and chewing tobacco wedged deep in their gums. These guys are a well trained and well coordinated force to be reckoned with, and it doesn't help that Iraq's military is getting smeared across the ground by them.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjO6TSz3_xIWFLi5tjUcXTX2LqMctEUjvDP_p8O3VE9E-x5mHh9A[/IMG]
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45252277]You mention to kill them all, despite common misconception it's not one group.
It's not just ISIS doing the stuff in Iraq, people from Iraq have stated it includes disenfranchised old army members, Batheist from the old regime and general Sunni militants. Its not just a problem of ISIS wanting to make a new regime but its those above groups wanting to be rid of the current, highly corrupt and brutal, one.
Oh yeah and the kurds, they to have been fighting the Iraqi's. Some of their groups have also committed terror attacks in and around turkey.[/QUOTE]
With all the information I've been checking out, it's all just one huge mess. I wish there was an easy solution, and I was thinking maybe we could incarcerate a portion of whoever's left during a conflict with them, to get information about any other groups within/apart of ISIS. I dunno, it all just sounds nuts to me. I also know that there are religious elements in it (Sunni vs Shi'ite,) and I don't even know if getting involved (by extension, affiliating with whoever is attacking who) will probably make this worse. Act, or do not act. Act, but how will the rest of the Muslim world view us for the side we've chosen? Can we please get an easy solution?
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;45252450]They now have hummers kindly provided by the fleeing iraqi army.[/QUOTE]
And mrap's apparently and blackhawks.
[QUOTE=Solomon;45250328]Wait, does ISIS=ISIL? Or am I missing something?[/QUOTE]
The S in ISIS stands for Sham which is the Arabic word for Levant.
[QUOTE=Person234;45248776]Until some countries starting to realize that they can do business with the new Islamic State (they did capture some oil fields...) and started officially recognizing the Islamic State and next thing you know, other countries followed suit and a decade or so later, it gets a seat in the United Nations... I am telling you, as much as we laugh at them declaring the formation of an Islamic State now, at the current rate, I fear that this may happen.
Now, which country do you think will recognize the Islamic State first? Saudi Arabia, then the UAE?[/QUOTE]
Well the Kurds have been floating around in a tanker for quite a while looking for someone to find their oil. It's not really been happening and this is perhaps one of the enemies that none of the big four will recognise.
US, EU, China and the RF will be against a similar entity.
[QUOTE=TAU!;45252250]They aren't a bunch of idiot hicks going around in pick-up trucks with wal-mart long rifles and chewing tobacco wedged deep in their gums. These guys are a well trained and well coordinated force to be reckoned with, and it doesn't help that Iraq's military is getting smeared across the ground by them.[/QUOTE]
The bigger problem is that the Iraqi army is pretty much completely green. The old baatist regime army was pretty much completely dismantled and a new totally green one was put in it's place. Sure training works to an extent but ISIS managed to grab some elements of the old army.
Notice how the militants don't have nearly as much luck in Syria, where even after a very long destructive civil war, the army still holds and is gaining ground.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45250261]Don't they need a Caliph to be a Caliphate?[/QUOTE]
They declared ISIS's current leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the Caliph.
[QUOTE=TAU!;45252172]Whether or not they're poorly equipped means diddly squat when they are getting closer and closer to [i]having their own country[/i]. If they get any further than this, then they'll soon enough be getting deals with other countries over the oil they're sitting on top of. Then they'll really be raking in the (tens of) millions, maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars. Then they'll have all the money they could ever want to fuel their war machine and their crusade-era mindsets. I am not one for war, and growing up hearing and reading about all of the bloody turmoil in the middle east has made me hope that one day it all just stops. But today, I honestly think we should just steam roll them into oblivion. If nothing is done and we let the Iraqi forces keep getting their asses kicked only for Syria to clean up after them, they are just going to keep spreading, pillaging, and crucifying anyone that isn't shot or beheaded first.[/QUOTE]
TAU! I dont think it will easy as that for them.
I mean, in order to get those fuel drums to China or America you have to have an infraestructure, engineers, and that's something lacking in the middle east.
As I see it as soon as they take power they will make some contracts with russians or chinese in order for them to operate the oil bussiness.
It's not crazy, there are historical precedentsm if you look at it only in economic and financial terms. Argentina during the 60's is the perfect example.
Now how would China and Russia avoid the OBVIOUS nationalization is something I can't think about.
I find it extremely funny that Wizards Court never mentions the USSR or China, he says Cold War but directly mentions western countries....BTW, conflicts in Africa and Middle East were as shitty as this way before the first British guy touched some sand.
Didn't we supply these groups with weapons?
If this state actually becomes a thing I wonder how well it goes against North Korea on the insaneometre
[QUOTE=Megadave;45255027]Didn't we supply these groups with weapons?[/QUOTE]
Very indirectly. More like you provided weapons to guys these guys in turn slaughtered and took their weapons.
[QUOTE=Steele92;45255402]If this state actually becomes a thing I wonder how well it goes against North Korea on the insaneometre[/QUOTE]
On one hand, North Korea fed alive a high ranking leader to starving dog for supposed treason, while on the other hand, ISIS crucified someone high ranking for apparent corruption.
Hard to say, really.
Yes, those bastard murder innocence civilians, drink alcohol and ate pork and rape women like there is no tomorrow could still think they are muslims? They never even pray 5 times a day! They don't even FAST during this month of Ramadan!!
Those ISIL bastards are NOT ISLAMIC to begin with. I'm a muslim myself and I don't like those bastards for calling themself, Islamic. hypocrites is what i call them.
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