• Cliff Bleszinkski responds to 'Tropes vs. Women' furor
    215 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sp00ks;39885054]can you name a mainstream game where the entire point of the game was for a female character to rescue a completely passive male character?[/QUOTE] Super princess peach is one. also you could make one right? i mean what's stopping people from making a game like that? people's creativity should not be limited by what others feel, i mean what if i told michael angelo to stop painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling because there are naked women in the painting and it's portraying them as (in my opionion) sex objects while that may not be the case. also i like how the feminist movement is kind of really shitting on multiculturalism, i mean japan has a very different cultural style and we are waltzing in and telling them they need to change their whole life style because "we" think it's sexist. at the end of the day what is good for feminism is not good for multiculturalism, so we are going to have to chose, multiculturalism or feminism.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;39883252]The thing is, Tropes vs Women really has no point. "Lots of teenage and young adult gamers play our games. We should add hot women into these games to make them appeal to this audience." It's not really a hard problem to figure out.[/QUOTE] It is harmful to the minds of impressionable young boys and they come to see this as a property of real life this is harmful, it hurts the feminist movement
Feminists should try attacking Nexus Mod Forums
[QUOTE=person11;39883531]Before this thread turns into a justification for people decrying feminism and Anita's efforts in combating inherent misogyny in many (not all) video games, I will post what I said in the last thread, which neatly sums everything up.[/QUOTE] It's a hard subject, and I understand that. But I think people are blaming the wrong thing. The reason girls are being insulted, harassed and stalked whenever the reveal their identity in gaming is not because we've been playing games where women tend to be portrayed as weak. This assumption is based on the "fact" that people cannot differ fiction from reality, just as with how people claim violent games leads to school shootings and other IRL violence, it simply does not. What leads to men obsessing over women in online gaming is the fact that these people are a bunch of idiots. They think the proper way to treat a women is the same way we though in early school, get her attention by picking on her, stealing her things etc. People that act this way simply don't know how to act with women. So when people blame games that shows damsels in distress, skimpy outfits and whatever I just sigh. Do people really think gamers are this stupid? HUMANITY IS THIS STUPID. Stupid people are going to do stupid things until stupidity is erased by some super drug in the future, until then we're going to see a lot of problems that don't have any cause other than idiots doing wrong things and trying to teach them how to do it correctly wont work. I'd like to see one case of a person actually believing in video game fiction(without being mentally insane). Is that even possible?
Loud idiots on both sides blur out the reasonable discussion. There was reasonable disapproval that by some was escalated to hate, which sparked counter-hate but targeted disapprovers in general and from that point it just keeps going.
[QUOTE=Nitro836;39885099]Somewhere, I read that a good female character can be genderbent without the character's personality changing too much aside from obvious physical quirks. Alyx Vance comes to mind. So does Liara T'Soni. Genderbend them and tell me; would they be any different if they were male to begin with?[/QUOTE] ..But wouldn't that be what Anita Sarkeesian calls a "man with boobs"? I do agree with some of her points but it seems like she's incredibly hard to please.
[QUOTE=Nitro836;39885099]Somewhere, I read that a good female character can be genderbent without the character's personality changing too much aside from obvious physical quirks. Alyx Vance comes to mind. So does Liara T'Soni. Genderbend them and tell me; would they be any different if they were male to begin with?[/QUOTE] genderless characters arent good characters and the idea that alyx vance isnt a female love interest is hilarious, she acts like a flirty office temp through all the games [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Eric95;39885296]..But wouldn't that be what Anita Sarkeesian calls a "man with boobs"? I do agree with some of her points but it seems like she's incredibly hard to please.[/QUOTE] the point of criticism is to criticize
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885303]genderless characters arent good characters and the idea that alyx vance isnt a female love interest is hilarious, she acts like a flirty office temp through all the games [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] the point of criticism is to criticize[/QUOTE] But what is "good" in her book if no matter what you design, it's wrong?
[QUOTE=Eric95;39885296]..But wouldn't that be what Anita Sarkeesian calls a "man with boobs"? I do agree with some of her points but it seems like she's incredibly hard to please.[/QUOTE] She IS hard to please, but this is normal and symptomatic of Wave 3 feminism. The problem with wave 3 feminists is their idea that they need to breakdown and over-come the essentialist ideals that wave 2 feminists put in place. in reality it's a counter-counter-counter culture which is struggling to have a defined sense of purpose as the group has already reached a majority of its original ideals and has to ramp everything up to reach the ever increasing difficulty of the ever decreasing problems.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885303]genderless characters arent good characters and the idea that alyx vance isnt a female love interest is hilarious, she acts like a flirty office temp through all the games [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] the point of criticism is to criticize[/QUOTE] So a feminine female character is wrong, a next to genderless female character is wrong, and a masculine female character is wrong? What's right, then? Would people be happy if we just omitted female characters from games altogether?
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885321]But what is "good" in her book if no matter what you design, it's wrong?[/QUOTE] i dont know, you have critical thinking skills you decide what you think is good or not good [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=omggrass;39885331]She IS hard to please, but this is normal and symptomatic of Wave 3 feminism. The problem with wave 3 feminists is their idea that they need to breakdown and over-come the essentialist ideals that wave 2 feminists put in place..[/QUOTE] good job you read the wikipedia page how is that a problem? [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Eric95;39885332]So a feminine female character is wrong, a next to genderless female character is wrong, and a masculine female character is wrong? What's right, then? Would people be happy if we just omitted female characters from games altogether?[/QUOTE] the point of anita's line of work isnt to be happy, its to remain constantly critical because the idea is that constant criticism leads to constant self-revision and improvement critical theory isnt a new thing its existed ever since books existed
You don't have any improvement if you don't have a goal of what to improve towards, that's just outright retarded.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885352]the point of anita's line of work isnt to be happy, its to remain constantly critical because the idea is that constant criticism leads to constant self-revision and improvement critical theory isnt a new thing its existed ever since books existed[/QUOTE] Good, constructive criticism works toward a solution instead of just stating problems.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885376]You don't have any improvement if you don't have a goal of what to improve towards, that's just outright retarded.[/QUOTE] ok but its not anitas place to have a goal to improve towards, shes a social critic if thats "outright retarded" to you then whatever obviously you think all critical theory must be retarded because its pretty consistent the moment you start promoting a goal based on your own subjective notion of "what is good" it stops being criticism [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Eric95;39885381]Good, constructive criticism works toward a solution instead of just stating problems.[/QUOTE] i dont think she ever claimed she was engaging in constructive criticism.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885382]ok but its not anitas place to have a goal to improve towards, shes a social critic if thats "outright retarded" to you then whatever obviously you think all critical theory must be retarded because its pretty consistent the moment you start promoting a goal based on your own subjective notion of "what is good" it stops being criticism[/QUOTE] I've always wondered if you go into hot topic threads and just pick whatever side people seem to be against the most and then spout crap just to get kicks. Criticism is giving opinion on how to improve towards a goal. Just complaining about how everyone is doing everything wrong is being a huge crybaby.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885391]I've always wondered if you go into hot topic threads and just pick whatever side people seem to be against the most and then spout crap just to get kicks. Criticism is giving opinion on how to improve towards a goal. Just complaining about how everyone is doing everything wrong is being a huge crybaby.[/QUOTE] i've noticed him doing that as well...
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885382]the moment you start promoting a goal based on your own subjective notion of "what is good" it stops being criticism[/QUOTE] Wait, what? All criticism is based on subjective opinions.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885391]I've always wondered if you go into hot topic threads and just pick whatever side people seem to be against the most and then spout crap just to get kicks.[/QUOTE] like i care pfFFF [QUOTE=jiggu;39885391]Criticism is giving opinion on how to improve towards a goal. Just complaining about how everyone is doing everything wrong is being a huge crybaby.[/QUOTE] fine then shes being a huge crybaby like marx was a huge crybaby when he was criticizing capitalism in das kapital [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Eric95;39885401]Wait, what? All criticism is based on subjective opinions.[/QUOTE] the point of critical analysis and critical theory is to not be based on subjective opinions but rather be based on evidence and facts which constitute a "soft" science anita does a shitty job at that, but thats what shes going for
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885404]like i care pfFFF fine then shes being a huge crybaby like marx was a huge crybaby when he was criticizing capitalism in das kapital[/QUOTE] Alright now I know you're just trying to start a shitstorm or something. Marx criticized capitalism because he believed socialism to be a better solution for society, that was his goal. It's obvious.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885281]It's a hard subject, and I understand that. But I think people are blaming the wrong thing. The reason girls are being insulted, harassed and stalked whenever the reveal their identity in gaming is not because we've been playing games where women tend to be portrayed as weak. This assumption is based on the "fact" that people cannot differ fiction from reality, just as with how people claim violent games leads to school shootings and other IRL violence, it simply does not. What leads to men obsessing over women in online gaming is the fact that these people are a bunch of idiots. They think the proper way to treat a women is the same way we though in early school, get her attention by picking on her, stealing her things etc. People that act this way simply don't know how to act with women. So when people blame games that shows damsels in distress, skimpy outfits and whatever I just sigh. Do people really think gamers are this stupid? HUMANITY IS THIS STUPID. Stupid people are going to do stupid things until stupidity is erased by some super drug in the future, until then we're going to see a lot of problems that don't have any cause other than idiots doing wrong things and trying to teach them how to do it correctly wont work. I'd like to see one case of a person actually believing in video game fiction(without being mentally insane). Is that even possible?[/QUOTE] Much like guns in games reinforces violent tendencies, sexism in games reinforces sexist tendencies.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885414]Alright now I know you're just trying to start a shitstorm or something. Marx criticized capitalism because he believed socialism to be a better solution for society, that was his goal. It's obvious.[/QUOTE] no thats very much not true, his ideas about communism (not socialism) came out of his critical theory work. theres a strong separation between his political work and his critical theory work
[QUOTE=thisispain;39885404]the point of critical analysis and critical theory is to not be based on subjective opinions but rather be based on evidence and facts which constitute a "soft" science anita does a shitty job at that, but thats what shes going for[/QUOTE] Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's for a good cause, but she's doing a shitty job at it and that's a problem because she has somehow become the main representative of her side. Which just leads to people already on her side being the only ones who take her videos seriously, and that makes her videos useless for purposes beyond raising general awareness.
[QUOTE=Flyingman356;39885416]Much like guns in games reinforces violent tendencies, sexism in games reinforces sexist tendencies.[/QUOTE] But the only people that are actually sexist won't stop being sexist just because games doesn't contain it. That's my point. Idiots will always be idiots, games won't affect that. For example anyone who steals a car and murders someone and then claims they got it from GTA. The problem isn't that he got his idea from GTA, it's that he was crazy enough to do it. Even if I think it would be hot if all the hot chicks ran around in super skimpy dresses all day I don't think that's normal, it's silly. I don't expect anyone to do it and I won't let it affect my thinking, it's a silly fantasy.
[QUOTE=Eric95;39885423]Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's for a good cause, but she's doing a shitty job at it and that's a problem because she has somehow become the main representative of her side.[/QUOTE] its obvious why shes the main representative. she provides a very simplistic youtube video that can easily be shared and turned into youtube controversy by people sharing her shit on forums or imageboards if she wrote a book like every proper social critic no-one would care and no-one would talk about it [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] lets face it if anyone on the internet actually gave a shit about what anita had to say theyd order books about feminist media theory and try to find out about the issue youre not gonna understand shit about feminism or the problems women face by watching bad youtube videos
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885428]But the only people that are actually sexist won't stop being sexist just because games doesn't contain it. That's my point. Idiots will always be idiots, games won't affect that.[/QUOTE] Sexism is basically brought on by us being told things by society, and the only thing being an idiot makes you is impressionable to things without any particular credibility, such as things that aren't meant to be taken seriously.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885428]But the only people that are actually sexist won't stop being sexist just because games doesn't contain it. That's my point. Idiots will always be idiots, games won't affect that.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconcious[/url] youre not crazy or an idiot if you are sexist or do sexist things. i do sexist things, but i do them subconsciously and thats why bringing it to light is important
[QUOTE=Flyingman356;39885442]Sexism is basically brought on by us being told things by society, and the only thing being an idiot makes you is impressionable to things without any particular credibility, such as things that aren't meant to be taken seriously.[/QUOTE] If people really took their values from games, shouldn't all men be trying their hardest to be super strong and heroic? The facts are right here, we don't learn reality from games because we know they're fiction. Also I don't really see if that post is arguing against me, or with me. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;39885450][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconcious[/url] youre not crazy or an idiot if you are sexist or do sexist things. i do sexist things, but i do them subconsciously and thats why bringing it to light is important[/QUOTE] If you can't control yourself I would consider you crazy. And I'm not arguing over sexism not existing, I'm saying that gaming doesn't affect it.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885456] If you can't control yourself I would consider you crazy.[/QUOTE] ive never heard a convincing argument for free will lmao maybe you wanna give it a shot [QUOTE=jiggu;39885456]And I'm not arguing over sexism not existing, I'm saying that gaming doesn't affect it.[/QUOTE] its the other way around. media is a watermark of how a culture looks at itself, and when we see something in this "spectacle" we accept it and interact with our expectations which means that media then reflects that. [img]http://singularityhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Mass-Media-Feedback-Loop.png[/img] everything in culture is a loop. if a game is sexist its representative of a sexist attitude in culture, and the fact that we then accept that game as a piece of media creates a system where that media is perpetuated making more of it commercialism in action
That still relies on the assumption that people actually think the way you act in games, and the way people are portrayed is somewhat real.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39885499]That still relies on the assumption that people actually think the way you act in games, and the way people are portrayed is somewhat real.[/QUOTE] umm where do you see that assumption?? the assumption is that people participate in mass media culture i dont see how what you are talking about relates to mass media culture. we see something that mass media culture creates and we either accept it and buy into it; creating more demand; or we dont buy into it and there is no demand if a game is sexist the sexism is perpetuated purely by the virtue of us buying it, because that tells mass media that sexism sells games and companies just by their function do whatever sells the most [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] if you knew anything about marx youd know why that is
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