• Cliff Bleszinkski responds to 'Tropes vs. Women' furor
    215 replies, posted
[QUOTE=person11;39886932]Blaming such things on stupidity is an easy out and deflection of the problem. [B]It's like guys defending rape culture by saying that guys are like animals[/B] and can't help it, and that it's up to women to live in fear and protect themselves. Males are all smart enough on average to understand the basics of my previous post, they just willingly deny it because of the atmosphere they have grown up in, in which everything in their childhoods and teenage lives, including video game stories, has given them certain ideas about women and men in society. Stupidity is no longer an excuse. Also, being shitty to women does not mean you believe the actual stories of the video games or their validity 100%; the effects of patriarchal culture are a lot more subtle than that.[/QUOTE] No, it's more akin to saying stupid people are going to rape women no matter if society encourages it or not. Which is my point, stupid people are going to think of themselves and break laws and harm others no matter what society tells them to do.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887418]No, it's more akin to saying stupid people are going to rape women no matter if society encourages it or not. Which is my point, stupid people are going to think of themselves and break laws and harm others no matter what society tells them to do.[/QUOTE] Said no social study ever. Society is very powerful in shaping how people act.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39887441]Said no social study ever. Society is very powerful in shaping how people act.[/QUOTE] Society is already against rape, yet it still happens because people think of themselves, get drunk and can't resist the urge?
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887447]Society is already against rape, yet it still happens because people think of themselves, get drunk and can't resist the urge?[/QUOTE] Most rape happens in relationships because the guy thinks they're entitled. It has nothing to do with legislature.
But saying it is stupid and that it will always happen is akin to defending it. It is not stupid to rape, it is absolutely disgusting and evil, and when people do it, even if they do not call it rape, they know it is wrong. If you say an evil will never go away, and that efforts to stop the evil are useless and should therefore be ignored or ridiculed, even if you admit it is an evil, you are defending the evil. Inevitability of shitty things does not preclude fighting against said things, in any form, including videos on youtube.
[QUOTE=person11;39887484]But saying it is stupid and that it will always happen is akin to defending it. It is not stupid to rape, it is absolutely disgusting and evil, and when people do it, even if they do not call it rape, they know it is wrong. If you say an evil will never go away, and that efforts to stop the evil are useless and should therefore be ignored or ridiculed, even if you admit it is an evil, you are defending the evil. Inevitability of shitty things does not preclude fighting against said things, in any form, including videos on youtube.[/QUOTE] Not sure if you're responding to me. But you're saying that because I say rape happens, that means I support it? What the flying fuck?
How did this thread turn into a discussion about rape.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39887456]Most rape happens in relationships because the guy thinks they're entitled. It has nothing to do with legislature.[/QUOTE] Which just continues to support my point, society doesn't have anything to do with it, it's idiots that can't control themselves. Everyone knows rape is wrong, yet still a lot of people do it. They're the bad people, it's not anyone or anything that has taught them to do it, it's they who can't control themselves. Pointing fingers or blaming media doesn't help jack shit, you need to learn people how to control themselves and learn people to take measures to protect themselves against it. And it feels like this discussion has really fallen off the topic. [QUOTE=elowin;39887513]How did this thread turn into a discussion about rape.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887503]Not sure if you're responding to me. But you're saying that because I say rape happens, that means I support it? What the flying fuck?[/QUOTE] You justify rape as an acceptable inevitability of life. Because its a 'stupid' act done by 'stupid' people which are always going to exist regardless what we try to improve. Which is a pretty horrific simplification.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39887531]You justify rape as an acceptable inevitability of life. Because its a 'stupid' act done by 'stupid' people which are always going to exist regardless what we try to improve. Which is a pretty horrific simplification.[/QUOTE] I have nowhere justified rape, why would you even think that? I say it happens, I don't say it should happen, I say it does. I'm stating facts of reality, nothing else. Why would you even jump to such a conclusion.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887548]I have nowhere justified rape, why would you even think that? I say it happens, I don't say it should happen, I say it does. I'm stating facts of reality, nothing else. Why would you even jump to such a conclusion.[/QUOTE] How did "You justify rape as an acceptable inevitability of life." Get reduced to "You justify rape". If they were the same thing then why would I have used so many words :downs:
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39887555]How did "You justify rape as an acceptable inevitability of life." Get reduced to "You justify rape". If they were the same thing then why would I have used to many words :downs:[/QUOTE] I've never said it's inevitable, I'm saying it is happening, and not for the reasons people claim it to happen. I'm not saying that it's always going to happen. And even if I said it was inevitable that doesn't mean I think it's right, nor support it. Your logic is flawed.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887503]Not sure if you're responding to me. But you're saying that because I say rape happens, that means I support it? What the flying fuck?[/QUOTE] You defend it if you say its inevitability makes fighting against it not valid. You said that people are too stupid not to rape, and that it will therefore always happen as a way to say that video game sexism will always happen, to which your conclusion was that fighting against it is not necessary. ANd if you think not fighting against something is not necessary, you may as well be defending it.
[QUOTE=omggrass;39885628] also video games doesn't have as much of an effect on us as you think, because god help us if it did.[/QUOTE] lmao you for real?
[QUOTE=elowin;39887513]How did this thread turn into a discussion about rape.[/QUOTE] My fault.
[QUOTE=person11;39887584]You defend it if you say its inevitability makes fighting against it not valid. You said that people are too stupid not to rape, and that it will therefore always happen as a way to say that video game sexism will always happen, to which your conclusion was that fighting against it is not necessary. ANd if you think not fighting against something is not necessary, you may as well be defending it.[/QUOTE] I said stupid people rape regardless of what society tells them is right or wrong. Now you're just outright putting bullshit in my mouth.
Also, everyone knows that rape is wrong, but the way our society is structured makes people more likely to do it anyway, in a way that makes men feel entitled to sex for the smallest things. This is known as Rape Culture.
I have never ever heard anyone say that you are in any way entitled to sex at any moment ever, as a matter of fact I tend to hear the opposite.
So even if SOME rape is inevitable, making changes in our society would greatly reduce it. There is a reason to fight against it, even if the problem can't always be avoided. I just don't like the logic that stupidity is a valid excuse for disgusting acts in society. In that regard your logic is flawed, even if I were wrong to compare it to you defending rape.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887598]I said stupid people rape regardless of what society tells them is right or wrong. Now you're just outright putting bullshit in my mouth.[/QUOTE] "Which is my point, stupid people are going to think of themselves and break laws and harm others no matter what society tells them to do." This is what you said when you attacked person11's point about people defending rape because they feel its 'natural' and can't be helped. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=jiggu;39887630]I have never ever heard anyone say that you are in any way entitled to sex at any moment ever, as a matter of fact I tend to hear the opposite.[/QUOTE] Oh please, I've known guys get arsey with their girlfriends because they didn't get a blowjob on their birthday.
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887630]I have never ever heard anyone say that you are in any way entitled to sex at any moment ever, as a matter of fact I tend to hear the opposite.[/QUOTE] Refer back to my first post in this thread, in which I say that these forces are usually subtle and operate in the subconscious. THe least subtle forms I know of are Nice Guys, who think they get sex for being nice to girls... which is probably something they get from movies and video games with damsel in distress type stories! Whew, back on subject.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;39887635]"Which is my point, stupid people are going to think of themselves and break laws and harm others no matter what society tells them to do." This is what you said when you attacked person11's point about people defending rape because they feel its 'natural' and can't be helped.[/QUOTE] I hate to say this. But you may have to retake a few courses in english. What my sentence means is that no matter if media goes around and says "RAPE IS WRONG", there are going to be people who won't listen to it. It doesn't mean that rape is inevitable, it means that what society tells people won't stop hideous crimes like this. It may reduce them slightly, but seriously, nobody is skewed enough to think that rape is right. [editline]12th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=person11;39887654]Refer back to my first post in this thread, in which I say that these forces are usually subtle and operate in the subconscious. THe least subtle forms I know of are Nice Guys, who think they get sex for being nice to girls... [B]which is probably something they get from movies [/B]and video games with damsel in distress type stories! Whew, back on subject.[/QUOTE] And this is where you make a baseless assumption which I disagree with. Well since you two seems so hell bent on discussing rape you can do it together. I'm trying to argue over the fact that video games doesn't affect us in ways that people tend to just assume out of the blue. This has nothing to do with rape, rape is an awful act and I do not support it, nor does society support it. I'll just quit this thread since you seem to have decided that I'm your enemy.
You assume that society is 100% against rape. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture[/url]
[QUOTE=jiggu;39887679] And this is where you make a baseless assumption which I disagree with.[/QUOTE] And this isn't a baseless assumption? "it means that what society tells people won't stop hideous crimes like this [...] It may reduce them slightly." Rape was common and acceptable in ancient Rome. Not so much today. What is the difference? Society.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;39883252]The thing is, Tropes vs Women really has no point. "Lots of teenage and young adult gamers play our games. We should add hot women into these games to make them appeal to this audience." It's not really a hard problem to figure out.[/QUOTE] Except if you actually, I don't know, [I]watch the frigging video she released[/I] you'll see how she's not just talking about that. And just because YOU don't think the series "has a point", she still has the right to do it without being harassed this much by immature twats.
And it is true that I do not have definitive proof of how Nice Guys come to be, but it seems obvious. In every story, movies, books, video games, anything starring a male lead always leads to a romantic plot or subplot, that always leads to him "getting the girl" at the end, either through his saving her (ie, damsel in distress story), or by simply being good enough to her. A guy can potentially develop a horribly skewed way of looking at women in this environment, in which all he needs to do is be nice enough to get a woman to have sex with him. If he is unsatisfied enough, rape may suddenly be justified for him. So I have no academic papers or books to cite for this, but I am sure other posters here can see that what I am saying makes sense. Continuing to have a culture and society like this contributes to all sorts of toxic things in society, and dismissing these things as a product of stupidity is almost akin to defending them. It is easy to blame individual stupidity, harder to look at how society is built and to say "this needs to be changed".
[QUOTE=Derposaurus;39883470]I could say that I skimmed her first video and could say that it made sense, but then again [B]all she said was that women in videogames are stereotyped and shit like that.[/B] But when you're marketing to a mostly male community, sex sells[/QUOTE] But she didn't, though. She just examined why and how a specific 'trope' was so popular in games of a certain era, and why it's misogynistic (and the damsel in distress cliche [I]is[/I] fairly misogynistic).
I think the video series would be a kind of good thing to have. That is, if it was made by someone who had their priorities in place and not her.
[QUOTE=person11;39887695]You assume that society is 100% against rape. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture[/url][/QUOTE] Oh here we go, someone busts out "Rape Culture" again. The whole theory is based on flawed (and sometimes even "fixed") information, interpreted by some psycho, man hating, new age feminazis. What could go wrong there? Also the pay gap studies in the western world are bullshit. Once you adjust for factors like danger, distance from civilization, and other things, the difference shrinks to a fraction of the 74 cents to a dollar or whatever crap they claim. Women have some problems even in the modern world, but to claim that there is some oppressive patriarchy pushing women down is a god damn joke. I have seen 2 studies so far showing that in the workplace, other women are far more likely to be the obstacle women face than men. You can observe the same things in schools with women's social groups. As for the media portrayal of women, that has been changing a lot. Even shit-tier sitcoms present a large range of body types and personalities than ever before, including women as the head of the household. Literature adopted this ages before. I don't imagine it will take much longer for video games to adjust. Also, Anita Sarkeesian. I have commented on her a lot before and don't feel like doing it again. All I can say is I urge you to read her study that got her a degree. It's fucking trash. I have no idea how she made it through university with shit like that.
[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;39887791]I think the video series would be a kind of good thing to have. That is, if it was made by someone who had their priorities in place and not her.[/QUOTE] What's even so wrong with her anyway? I mean, the video she did wasn't exactly top-notch feminist literary criticism, but there really weren't many points she made that I could really see people intelligently disputing.
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