Cliff Bleszinkski responds to 'Tropes vs. Women' furor
215 replies, posted
[QUOTE=.Isak.;39892204]The concept behind hatred of women and sexual objectification of women are so absolutely different that fitting them under a single umbrella term is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Bollocks.
Its misogynistic to reduce women to simple objects of desire. Because you don't value the woman beyond something to rub your dick in.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39891211]ffs do you know what sex-positive feminism is?
no one has ever actually explained this to me.
[editline]12th March 2013[/editline]
people say "oh anita sarkeesian is sex-negative or anti-sexuality" and "sex-positive" feminism is SO much better but no one seems to coherently explain what it is.[/QUOTE]
Most people actually don't understand those videos by Investig8veJournalism, they just vomit up what they hear on the internet because it's negative and coincides with their view on things.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;39892204]The concept behind hatred of women and sexual objectification of women are so absolutely different that fitting them under a single umbrella term is ridiculous. It's ridiculous to define lust and hate in the same word - they're unrelated. Misogyny is hatred of women, and hatred does not extend to lust, because lust is simply sexual
Why am I upsetting myself over dictionary definitions, Christ. Apologies to you - I understand your points. Time for me to abstain from pointless internet debates for a while and focus on the Zen spirituality that I'm doing incredibly poorly on.[/QUOTE]
If you don't think women are worth getting your lust under control for then you probably hate women.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;39892381]If you don't think women are worth getting your lust under control for then you probably hate women.[/QUOTE]
I just find that to be a jump to an unrealistic conclusion. Games were developed for the pre-teen male market for a long time, and sex sells, especially to that group. Pre-teens are typically incredibly lustful, and they do eventually get that under control. Gaming as an art-form is passing through it's pre-teen phase, per se, and now it's maturing quickly.
I'm far from hating women, or anyone at all, and my spurts of anger on here are just a result of how impersonal the internet is as a mode of communication. I'm not typically quite so spiteful and angry and I apologize again for being so negative and dismissive about the opinions of others. I'm in no position to tell anybody that their perspectives are right or wrong, as everyone has differing perspectives and ideals in the world and attempting to change them through yelling over the internet is unnecessary, unhelpful, and unproductive.
I don't hate the feminist movement - I think a majority of the ideas are fantastic. I just get irked when people make big deals out of tiny issues like tropes. Hypocritical of me to delve into word definitions and whatnot, sorry.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;39892514]I just find that to be a jump to an unrealistic conclusion. Games were developed for the pre-teen male market for a long time, and sex sells, especially to that group. Pre-teens are typically incredibly lustful, and they do eventually get that under control. Gaming as an art-form is passing through it's pre-teen phase, per se, and now it's maturing quickly.
I'm far from hating women, or anyone at all, and my spurts of anger on here are just a result of how impersonal the internet is as a mode of communication. I'm not typically quite so spiteful and angry and I apologize again for being so negative and dismissive about the opinions of others. I'm in no position to tell anybody that their perspectives are right or wrong, as everyone has differing perspectives and ideals in the world and attempting to change them through yelling over the internet is unnecessary, unhelpful, and unproductive.
I don't hate the feminist movement - I think a majority of the ideas are fantastic. I just get irked when people make big deals out of tiny issues like tropes. Hypocritical of me to delve into word definitions and whatnot, sorry.[/QUOTE]
Well I'm very reassured to know that - thank heavens - they're just being sexist to make more money! All is right with the world.
[editline]12th March 2013[/editline]
but that was probably very petty of me, sorry
[QUOTE=Hellduck;39892619]Well I'm very reassured to know that - thank heavens - they're just being sexist to make more money! All is right with the world.
[editline]12th March 2013[/editline]
but that was probably very petty of me, sorry[/QUOTE]
Money's a far stronger motivator than moral correctness.
I like the idea, I just hate the way she went about making her series. The first episode has no relevance to modern gaming as she not only used no modern examples from any game other than Mario, who's plot hasn't gotten any different from the last 50 or so games, but she doesn't understand that these games weren't out there to hurt the female image. She used a reference to the Krystal video game, which was canceled for clearly obvious reasons other than "strong female characters", and she calls an old school beat-em-up for a game about you saving a girl from a group of thugs as a terrible thing. There has been barely any recent video games that revolve around the plot of "save the princess", because the plot is no longer relevant. On the NES, story was near impossible to create due to limited size capabilities, and rather than tell you to move forward for no reason, they decided to give you a minimalistic plot to use so you would have purpose to move ahead. Now you have [del]movies[/del] games like Heavy Rain and The Walking Dead where plots are much more open and free, and even Call of Duty has a better and more advanced plot than "save the princess".
And it's not even her first example that is what's wrong with her program, nearly no video games have any of the things she will bring up in totally serious situations. Ivy from the Soul Caliber series was placed in a completely fictional world where she taunts the other player while doing mid-air jump kicks to shove her foot in 15 foot man's face. You won't see this sort of behavior in a game with a serious or realistic plot, as in those type of games you will be introduced to a rather non silly plot and non silly characters who the developers want you to relate to. Half life wouldn't get better to have Alyx Vance be in her underwear because the world is dystopian, it's full of evil policemen and a threat far bigger than Gordon Freeman alone, and none of the other characters are put in roles of "Male power fantasy (gee I can't believe I'm saying that non-ironically)". Even in games that were made for that, Call of Duty and Gears of War don't use that type of symbolism for their plots. Call of Duty has very little female characters at all, and being held hostage by Russian Terrorists, while far fetched already, would be a very large possibility as she's the President's daughter and thus very important. It wasn't because of her gender, they'd take the president hostage instead if they could, it was done in relevance of who's more powerful and will give us a bigger advantage than "let's kidnap the girl". So most if not all her plot points are clearly irrelevant to the point as she neither understands what's truly wrong with the gaming industry, nor uses correct examples to get her point across.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;39891717] Sex-negative feminism wants to censor anything offensive[/QUOTE]
lol
name a sex-negative feminist for me
[QUOTE=.Isak.;39891717]Sure, there's heavily overly-sexualized flukes like Lollipop Chainsaw, but the transition of Tomb Raider from oversexualized to realistic is an example that sexist behavior in video games is already changing. [/QUOTE]
For every Tomb Raider there's a Duke Nukem, and another Gears of War, Bulletstorm, and GTA in the background. Strong female characters aren't a new thing (just look at Beyond Good & Evil), but they have always been and continue to be a small minority.
[QUOTE=thisispain;39893659]lol
name a sex-negative feminist for me[/QUOTE]anita sarkesian
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;39895788]anita sarkesian[/QUOTE]
anyone who says anita sarkesian is a sex-negative feminist has no idea what sex-negative feminism is (hint: no-one calls themselves sex-negative)
anti-porn is not anti-sex
If sex were a disease I'd be sex-negative
DOHOHO
[QUOTE=catbarf;39895264]For every Tomb Raider there's a Duke Nukem, and another Gears of War, Bulletstorm, and GTA in the background. Strong female characters aren't a new thing (just look at Beyond Good & Evil), but they have always been and continue to be a small minority.[/QUOTE]
i actually think things like duke nukem aren't that derogatory towards women, oddly enough. while on its face it is incredibly sexist, it is really making fun of itself more than it is objectifying or marginalizing women. it's nothing but a giant joke, and in fact could be said to be an exaggerated and humorous reflection of subtle ideas in our own culture.
whether the game developers intended duke nukem to be some societal commentary or not(probably not), it can certainly be interpreted that way.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;39895888]If sex were a disease I'd be sex-negative
DOHOHO[/QUOTE]
the only thing left is to self-medicate
[QUOTE=thisispain;39895872]anyone who says anita sarkesian is a sex-negative feminist has no idea what sex-negative feminism is (hint: no-one calls themselves sex-negative)
anti-porn is not anti-sex[/QUOTE]
Yeah, there are actually a huge number of legitimate, non religious or conservative oriented reasons to be against porn and the porn industry. But tell any liberal guy that he should not be looking at most porn, and he will suddenly sound like Ron Paul.
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;39883224]Since when did someone's opinion become news? And isn't Cliffy who also said that PC is a dead platform full of only pirates?[/QUOTE]
A statement being released by a prominent figure can be news. And it's fallacious to dismiss his (good) argument because of what else he may have said, completely unrelated to this present issue, in the past.
[QUOTE=person11;39895961]Yeah, there are actually a huge number of legitimate, non religious or conservative oriented reasons to be against porn and the porn industry. But tell any liberal guy that he should not be looking at most porn, and he will suddenly sound like Ron Paul.[/QUOTE]
Aye, let's hear them.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;39891987]I've yet to see a single example of actual misogyny in video games.
Misogyny is hatred of women. Misogyny is not sexualization of women. Is there a single video game that has a genuine example of hating women?[/QUOTE]
Misogyny is not "blarghhhh i hate women" (though it can be that). It's an ever lingering presence in the background of society that's fueled by the feedback loop between media and its audience
[QUOTE=person11;39895961]Yeah, there are actually a huge number of legitimate, non religious or conservative oriented reasons to be against porn and the porn industry. But tell any liberal guy that he should not be looking at most porn, and he will suddenly sound like Ron Paul.[/QUOTE]
tbh do people actually still watch and like porn industry porn? Giant fake tits bigger than your head, silicon injections everywhere, stupid shit. But some naked erotic magazine of someone not all dolled up doesn't portray anything negative
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39891211]ffs do you know what sex-positive feminism is?
no one has ever actually explained this to me.
[editline]12th March 2013[/editline]
people say "oh anita sarkeesian is sex-negative or anti-sexuality" and "sex-positive" feminism is SO much better but no one seems to coherently explain what it is.[/QUOTE]
sex-positive "feminism" is a cool way for idiots to shame people for having agency over their body when they don't want to have sex. the only people i've ever interacted with that self-identify as this are idiot manchildren anarchists
[QUOTE=person11;39895961]Yeah, there are actually a huge number of legitimate, non religious or conservative oriented reasons to be against porn and the porn industry. But tell any liberal guy that he should not be looking at most porn, and he will suddenly sound like Ron Paul.[/QUOTE]
Don't mean to but in here but do you mind listing them? I'm guessing the reasons (that aren't what the typical heavily religious and/or conservative person would say):
1. Porn objectifies Women
2. Porn sets unrealistic standards for appearance therefore having negative mental and possibly physical effects (I would say fashion magazines and such displaying ultra-thin supermodels have a more pronounced influence on women).
Am I in the ballpark for your reasons or am I just cosmically missing your reasons for being against porn? If so then list them as stated earlier.
my problem with all this kind of stuff is that, shouldn't someones creation be entirely up to the creator? like, in any artistic medium i don't feel that you should have to change what you envision just to please others. but then again i'm not sure if that's what this is about either? if it's just identifying this kinda stuff then yeah it's cool & interesting (like, the damsel in distress shit going all the way back to ye olde times) but i wouldn't agree with trying to convince people to change their creations just to make people happy. but yeah if noones saying that then i'm just confused and nevermind
[QUOTE=zizzleplix;39896512]Don't mean to but in here but do you mind listing them? I'm guessing the reasons (that aren't what the typical heavily religious and/or conservative person would say):
1. Porn objectifies Women
2. Porn sets unrealistic standards for appearance therefore having negative mental and possibly physical effects (I would say fashion magazines and such displaying ultra-thin supermodels have a more pronounced influence on women).
Am I in the ballpark for your reasons or am I just cosmically missing your reasons for being against porn? If so then list them as stated earlier.[/QUOTE]
That, and the fact that porn websites, etc, are literally the last frontier in which we explicitly categorize women by size, race, nationality, etc for consumption by a male audience. It's toxic. The industry is also known to do horrible things to lower ranks of porn actresses. Stars that we know of do wonderfully and talk about porn as empowering them, but how about the masses of exploited actresses who are abused on camera, for guys to enjoy? The fact of the matter is that most of this "official porn" is completely unregulated, and could easily be filmed abuse.
In more extreme cases, I have heard of, but have not seen proof of, widespread cases of filmed date rapes, which would make those videos truly terrible.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;39896849]my problem with all this kind of stuff is that, shouldn't someones creation be entirely up to the creator? like, in any artistic medium i don't feel that you should have to change what you envision just to please others. but then again i'm not sure if that's what this is about either? if it's just identifying this kinda stuff then yeah it's cool & interesting (like, the damsel in distress shit going all the way back to ye olde times) but i wouldn't agree with trying to convince people to change their creations just to make people happy. but yeah if noones saying that then i'm just confused and nevermind[/QUOTE]
That might hold true for a much more technologically austere medium but videogame development is quite logistically complex so already a large part of the developers' artistic vision is going to be diluted. I actually believe that a lot of the sexualization of women in videogames comes from publishers wanting to compromise the artistic vision by appealing to male gamers in the first place, so if anything feminist critique like this shouldn't be harmful from an artistic perspective.
[QUOTE=God's Pimp Hand;39897139]I actually believe that a lot of the sexualization of women in videogames comes from publishers wanting to compromise the artistic vision by appealing to male gamers in the first place[/QUOTE]
No, it comes from the backwards idiots that manage to creep onto any development team, because most companies don't gauge how much of an asshole you are during technical interviews. Here's a quote about the design of the main female character in Bulletstorm:
[quote]Jessen: It was everything imaginable. It was width. It was the cleavage showing. It was height, from top to bottom. It was the level of bounciness. It was all of that. I'm in Adrian's office, like, "Adrian, come on. No! Are you crazy? Trishka, she's our badass. She's going kick your ass and take no prisoners! She's sexy because she has the confidence. She doesn't need to have giant breasts!" Adrian is like, [B]"She's so hot, she needs to have a giant rack. I love chicks in video games that have giant boobs."[/B] I could see his face was kind of sad. I think we came to a good middle ground. He genuinely wanted what he considers the most beautiful looking woman in the game. What I wanted is a believable, strong, not-stereotypical fighter chick.
If not for Jessen's intervention, Adrian's dreams would have come true, and gamers would be able to admire his vision of the most ideal-looking woman. Instead, the heroine's beauty will be watered down to make her more "non-stereotypical".[/quote]
(note that the 'non-stereotypical' character [URL="http://www.411mania.com/game_article_pictures/16460.jpg"]still looks like this[/URL])
That's the creative director I bolded. Not some random programmer, but the person in charge of creative art direction, in charge of the look and feel of the whole project. It's mouth-breathing chucklefucks like this that shoehorn rampant sexism in games where it doesn't belong. Don't try to blame the publisher, at most a publisher will say it needs to appeal to a particular demographic and how the devs do it is up to them.
[QUOTE=person11;39897023]That, and the fact that porn websites, etc, are literally the last frontier in which we explicitly categorize women by size, race, nationality, etc for consumption by a male audience. It's toxic. The industry is also known to do horrible things to lower ranks of porn actresses. Stars that we know of do wonderfully and talk about porn as empowering them, but how about the masses of exploited actresses who are abused on camera, for guys to enjoy? The fact of the matter is that most of this "official porn" is completely unregulated, and could easily be filmed abuse.
In more extreme cases, I have heard of, but have not seen proof of, widespread cases of filmed date rapes, which would make those videos truly terrible.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention excessive porn consumption can provide unrealistic expectations when they finally get girlfriends and realise that sexual relationships are nothing like they often see on the internet.
It can be damaging for such relationships.
You know who was a great video game gal? Samus. Steel-nerved bounty hunter who had everyone convinced she was a guy until she proved everyone wrong. AND THIS WAS IN THE 80s.
Then Other M fucked all that up.
[QUOTE=person11;39897023]That, and the fact that porn websites, etc, are literally the last frontier in which we explicitly categorize women by size, race, nationality, etc for consumption by a male audience. It's toxic. The industry is also known to do horrible things to lower ranks of porn actresses. Stars that we know of do wonderfully and talk about porn as empowering them, but how about the masses of exploited actresses who are abused on camera, for guys to enjoy? The fact of the matter is that most of this "official porn" is completely unregulated, and could easily be filmed abuse.
In more extreme cases, I have heard of, but have not seen proof of, widespread cases of filmed date rapes, which would make those videos truly terrible.[/QUOTE]
Well outright banning pornography will solve nothing and will only create a black market for it (people will want things they can't have). I don't really watch porn myself but I don't want censorship just because some may be offended. And if this widespread abuse you say is so rampant (and it's not the stereotypical anti-porn advocate just pulling "statistics" and "facts" out of their ass) then I suppose education about it is necessary just so this abuse is reduced and people know what their supporting. But anyway this is getting off topic to the actual discussion.
[QUOTE=zizzleplix;39899480]Well outright banning pornography will solve nothing and will only create a black market for it (people will want things they can't have). I don't really watch porn myself but I don't want censorship just because some may be offended. And if this widespread abuse you say is so rampant (and it's not the stereotypical anti-porn advocate just pulling "statistics" and "facts" out of their ass) then I suppose education about it is necessary just so this abuse is reduced and people know what their supporting. But anyway this is getting off topic to the actual discussion.[/QUOTE]
Who suggested banning pornography?
[QUOTE=Disgruntled;39898925]Then Other M fucked all that up.[/QUOTE]
THEBABYTHEBABYTHEBABYTHEBABY
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