[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029609]i'm not against legalization. people were asking how feminists or anyone could be against prostitution. i was answering that. prostitution is harmful, but it is more harmful in black markets.[/QUOTE]
well that makes sense. i still think that the added civil liberties allowed by heavy government regulation of the market would probably outweigh most ethical/philosophical problems with the idea, but i can most definitely see why certain feminists would be resistant to it.
I don't see any problem with prostitution. People resort to prostitution because it's a relatively easy way of earning money when other economic or educational avenues aren't open to them.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029513]except this thing is a person's sexuality. it means that a woman's body is just a product to be bought.[/QUOTE]
That is human trafficking.
Which occurs heavily in regions where prostitution is banned.
Instead of them selling sex for money, they are literally sold as objects.
Sex is unique. The demand never goes away. Prohibiting the exchange of sex for money creates a market for slavery that is all too readily filled. If you cannot remove the demand, and banning it creates a problem which is far worse, then the functional solution for any government should be to legalize and regulate for the safety of everyone involved.
There is no other logical and feasible solution to the problem.
[QUOTE=Killuah;43029348]Not saying there is but lets just speculate here:
What if there was conclusive evidence that would show that legalized prostitution drove more women into the job because of the lower entry barrier?
Interesting thought and kind of a dilemma.[/QUOTE]
So we should ban people from working in fast food outlets too?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029609]prostitution is harmful[/QUOTE]Prostitution is only as harmful as we allow it to be. Its at its worst when we try to prevent it all together, that's when you get sex slaves lacking the consent or safety. Wouldn't the better approach be to educate the populous about prostitution? Make it something socially acceptable while simultaneously insuring that those in the field are afforded necessary protections and that people understand they are more than just property? I'd argue that's a better goal for feminism to strive for.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029638]no i was asking a serious question. there was huge demand for slavery for thousands of years. how did that demand begin to drop? how did we get to the point where we looked at slavery as a disgusting practice? maybe that can guide us to eventually make prostitution an undesired aspect of society.[/QUOTE]
Slavery was against the slaves' will. Prostitution is not.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029609]i'm not against legalization. people were asking how feminists or anyone could be against prostitution. i was answering that. prostitution is harmful, but it is more harmful in black markets.
they are renting their body then. that's a more accurate way to phrase it.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anybody models their understandings of a human female on prostitution
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43029666]Slavery was against the slaves' will. Prostitution is not.[/QUOTE]
that has nothing to do with what i said
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029638]there was huge demand for slavery for thousands of years. how did that demand begin to drop?[/QUOTE]
It dropped because people started to understand how it was wearing down innocent people who have no control over their lives through torture and hard labor, and in most cases got them killed.
The prostitution industry on the other hand is made of people who chose the job, consent to it and actually get paid in the end.
The only prostitutes who are actually being treated like slaves are the ones who have been taken hostage by cartels, and illegalizing prostitution would only make the amount of those go through the roof.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43029666]Slavery was against the slaves' will. Prostitution is not.[/QUOTE]
In what perfect world do you live where all people do the job they are doing by their own will, even if it's all legal work? Because I sure would love to live there.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029688]that has nothing to do with what i said[/QUOTE]
How the fuck it has nothing to do with what you've said?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029638]no i was asking a serious question. there was huge demand for slavery for thousands of years. how did that demand begin to drop? [/QUOTE]
We realized it was a disgusting practice.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029638]how did we get to the point where we looked at slavery as a disgusting practice? [/QUOTE]
Because we realized that doing things to other people against their will is wrong.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029638]maybe that can guide us to eventually make prostitution an undesired aspect of society.[/QUOTE]
Well prostitution isn't against the prostitute's will so no.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;43029690]It dropped because people started to understand how it was wearing down innocent people who have no control over their lives through torture and hard labor, and in most cases got them killed.
The prostitution industry on the other hand is made of people who chose the job, consent to it and actually get paid in the end.
The only prostitutes who are actually being treated like slaves are the ones who have been taken hostage by cartels, and illegalizing prostitution would only make the amount of those go through the roof.[/QUOTE]
so your understanding is that people just gradually thought of slavery as disgusting and people willingly stopped using slave labor?
[QUOTE=Killuah;43029707]In what perfect world do you live where all people do the job they are doing by their own will, even if it's all legal work? Because I sure would love to live there.[/QUOTE]
If someone is forcing you to do a job, call the cops, that's human trafficking or slavery and it's illegal.
[QUOTE=Killuah;43029707]In what perfect world do you live where all people do the job they are doing by their own will, even if it's all legal work? Because I sure would love to live there.[/QUOTE]
Reality.
Where bans on prostitution have resulted in more humans working as slaves than at any point in human history. Where a human being can be purchased for 100 dollars. In a tight market, they might go for a thousand. During the peak of slavery in the United States, a slave would have cost the equivalent of 40,000 dollars.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;43029690]It dropped because people started to understand how it was wearing down innocent people who have no control over their lives through torture and hard labor, and in most cases got them killed.
The prostitution industry on the other hand is made of people who chose the job, consent to it and actually get paid in the end.
The only prostitutes who are actually being treated like slaves are the ones who have been taken hostage by cartels, and illegalizing prostitution would only make the amount of those go through the roof.[/QUOTE]
In the 10 years of decriminalization of prostitution here the situation of prostitutes didn't change in measurable amounts.
Source: The city I live in.
[url]http://www.kiel.de/rathaus/gleichstellung/veroeffentlichungen/prostitution/index.php[/url]
Prostitution being legal doesn't change shit. Many prostitutes in Germany are trafficked to Germany and forced into LEGAL MARRIAGE.
Source:
[url]http://www.contra-sh.de/de/frauenhandel-ehe.htm[/url]
If anything it does more bad than good by creating sugercoating opinions like yours.
[I]"Whelp, prostitution is legal now I guess the problems are solved" [/I] is exactly what these women DON'T need.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029723]so your understanding is that people just gradually thought of slavery as disgusting and people willingly stopped using slave labor?[/QUOTE]
Why did you think the American civil war happened?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029592]how did we stop using slaves?[/QUOTE]
The difference between prostitutes and slaves is that (ideally) prostitutes can choose to go into the profession, and set their own prices.
[QUOTE=Advancedrock;43029509]Kids cutting their neighbors lawns turns them into commodities to be bought and sold for money!!!1[/QUOTE]
Sorry, this is a fuck terrible comparison and you really shouldn't be commenting on such matters if you're going to do this.
Selling sex makes the person a commodity, you are paying someone based on their looks, sexual experience, etc. to let you use their body for things. Someone offering to mown lawns for money, or someone washing cars for money is in no way the same as they are providing a service that is not use of their body. You don't hire them because they look good, or might have particularly sexy sex parts. You hire them because you need your lawn mown and your car cleaned. You aren't paying for the person, you pay for the service.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43029751]The difference between prostitutes and slaves is that (ideally) prostitutes can choose to go into the profession, and set their own prices.[/QUOTE]
would indentured servitude be acceptable if the slave got to choose his own selling price?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029780]would indentured servitude be acceptable if the slave got to choose his own selling price?[/QUOTE]
You're still completely ignoring the fact that legal prostitutes chose the job and went into the industry at their own risk.
Slaves are captured and forced into it.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029780]would indentured servitude be acceptable if the slave got to choose his own selling price?[/QUOTE]
Of course.
The person could set the price to be so high that nobody in their right mind would buy them.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;43029799]You're still completely ignoring the fact that legal prostitutes chose the job and went into the industry at their own risk.
Slaves are captured and forced into it.[/QUOTE]
not an indentured servant.
[QUOTE=Oizen;43029025]Wouldn't they want to legalize it?
[/QUOTE]
It objectifies and oppresses women they say. They use this same logic to push for the banning of all porn.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;43029799]You're still completely ignoring the fact that legal prostitutes chose the job and went into the industry at their own risk.
Slaves are captured and forced into it.[/QUOTE]
Many of them don't, legal or not doesn't change whether you do your job by your own will.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029780]would indentured servitude be acceptable if the slave got to choose his own selling price?[/QUOTE]
There's no yes rating, indentured servitude is inherently different because both sides have terms and agreements that were usually upheld by courts. Or at least there were until indentured servants were abused or otherwise mistreated for cheap labor.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43029778]Sorry, this is a fuck terrible comparison and you really shouldn't be commenting on such matters if you're going to do this.
Selling sex makes the person a commodity, you are paying someone based on their looks, sexual experience, etc. to let you use their body for things. Someone offering to mown lawns for money, or someone washing cars for money is in no way the same as they are providing a service that is not use of their body. You don't hire them because they look good, or might have particularly sexy sex parts. You hire them because you need your lawn mown and your car cleaned. You aren't paying for the person, you pay for the service.[/QUOTE]
So being a model should be illegal?
And if you're paying for a person that's slavery or human trafficking.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43029778]Sorry, this is a fuck terrible comparison and you really shouldn't be commenting on such matters if you're going to do this.
Selling sex makes the person a commodity, you are paying someone based on their looks, sexual experience, etc. to let you use their body for things. Someone offering to mown lawns for money, or someone washing cars for money is in no way the same as they are providing a service that is not use of their body. You don't hire them because they look good, or might have particularly sexy sex parts. You hire them because you need your lawn mown and your car cleaned. You aren't paying for the person, you pay for the service.[/QUOTE]
Why is sex different from any other service? Why is sex special? I thought people like you wanted sex to be more acceptable, but here you guys are saying that sex is unique and different from every other activity ever.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43029850]So being a model should be illegal?
And if you're paying for a person that's slavery or human trafficking.[/QUOTE]
I never said anything about the legality of it. Stop jumping to conclusions you fucking guy.
You are paying for a person, not ownership of the person, but use of their body (sex). Which is significantly different to use of their time (doing other jobs).
[QUOTE=Killuah;43029841]Many of them don't, legal or not doesn't change whether you do your job by your own will.[/QUOTE]
If you are forced to do a job, call the cops. That's human trafficking or slavery. This has nothing to do with prostitution being legal. You might as well be captured and forced to tell jokes. Ban.
[QUOTE=Advancedrock;43029875]Why is sex different from any other service? Why is sex special? I thought people like you wanted sex to be more acceptable, but here you guys are saying that sex is unique and different from every other activity ever.[/QUOTE]
"people like you".
You too, stop jumping to conclusions, you look silly doing it. I never said anything about banning prostitution, just that you are paying for the use of that persons' body, not their time.
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