Feminists fight to ban prostitution in Germany - Polidicks

[QUOTE=hexpunK;43030642]I've never said anything about the legality so I dunno why you keep coming back to this. Yes a more regulated and legal prostitution market would solve almost all the issues prostitutes face thanks to pimps being shitlords mostly, and human traffickers knowing people want prostitutes.[/QUOTE] He keeps coming back to it because thats what the article is about?

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;43030604]Obvious you wouldnt tell me. [/QUOTE] what sobotnik is referring to is when i worked on a beach farming these: [img]http://geoduckrecipes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/geoduck-size.jpg[/img] elephant penis factory.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;43030638]Why are you even comparing volunteer labor to sexual services?[/QUOTE] Because they are the same. Volunteer labor = Labor Services Sexual Services = Volunteer Sex

[QUOTE=hexpunK;43030442]You pay a masseuse for the massage, yeah they use their body to provide the massage, but they provide the actual service through a skill they learned, something they spent the time understanding how to perform properly. You pay a model to pose, yeah they use their body to pose for shoots, but they provide the actual service through a skill they learned, something they spent time understand how to do properly. You pay basic physical workers for manual labour, yeah they use their body to provide the labour, but they provide the actual service through skills they learn. See where I'm going here? You pay a prostitute for sex, yeah they use their body to provide the sex, and that's the end of it really. You are paying for their body (and occasionally skill as I've already said), not necessarily their skill as a piece of ass. But merely because they happen to have the sex organs you are looking for. [B]That[/B] is the distinction that I have had to repeat constantly. It's not a bullshit position, you [B]are[/B] paying explicitly for the use of their body, not necessarily the use of their time or skill.[/QUOTE] But you [B]are [/B]paying for prostitutes' time and service, which is them letting you do something with their bodies. It is a service nevertheless. Regardless of any skills being used. And it's done with their consent, hence they are not a commodity. Their service is. Just like any other service. And what when a massage or modeling is be done without any experience or skill? Would it fall to the same category? It is bullshit position because you've started with "prostitution is exploitation and treating women as commodity" and then looked for arguments to back it up and they don't work when challenged. [QUOTE=hexpunK;43030442]Where are you pulling this "sex is some magical shit we can't talk about" shit from? I've only seen one post remotely like that in the thread and it wasn't anything to do with me or my stances on the matter.[/QUOTE] Wasn't directed specifically at you.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;43030642]I've never said anything about the legality so I dunno why you keep coming back to this. Yes a more regulated and legal prostitution market would solve almost all the issues prostitutes face thanks to pimps being shitlords mostly, and human traffickers knowing people want prostitutes.[/QUOTE] Not considering prostitution a service/job and instead viewing it as pure exploitation is one of the main reasons people oppose legalization.

[QUOTE=GunFox;43029650]That is human trafficking. Which occurs heavily in regions where prostitution is banned. Instead of them selling sex for money, they are literally sold as objects. Sex is unique. The demand never goes away. Prohibiting the exchange of sex for money creates a market for slavery that is all too readily filled. If you cannot remove the demand, and banning it creates a problem which is far worse, then the functional solution for any government should be to legalize and regulate for the safety of everyone involved. There is no other logical and feasible solution to the problem.[/QUOTE] yawmwen your argument ended here because you never responded to him

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43030689]Not considering prostitution a service/job and instead viewing it as pure exploitation is one of the main reasons people oppose legalization.[/QUOTE] Well, you've not read any of my posts apparently. Prostitution is inherently exploitative right now, I've explained that much already. With regulation and legality it becomes less exploitative, but it can still be quite so. Taking advantage of people who may only be offering their bodies for sex due to severe money issues, whilst consenting is exploitative. Doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal (in reality there should be things in place to prevent that scenario outright).

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;43030706]yawmwen your argument ended here because you never responded to him[/QUOTE] i already said prostitution should be legal

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;43030672]But you [B]are [/B]paying for prostitutes' time and service, which is them letting you do something with their bodies. It is a service nevertheless. Regardless of any skills being used. And it's done with their consent, hence they are not a commodity. Their service is. Just like any other service. And what when a massage or modeling is be done without any experience or skill? Would it fall to the same category? It is bullshit position because you've started with "prostitution is exploitation and treating women as commodity" and then looked for arguments to back it up and they don't work when challenged[/QUOTE] So like, can you prove I started off at that position and attempted to find arguments from there? I entered the thread, stated my position, and provided arguments (that are pretty valid just saying). You are paying for the use of their body, turning their body into a commodity that can be part of a service (sexing). Making this shit a car analogy, you hire a car, not neccesarily because the car is good, but because you need a car (the commodity) to get you places (transportation, the service).

[QUOTE=hexpunK;43030777]So like, can you prove I started off at that position and attempted to find arguments from there? I entered the thread, stated my position, and provided arguments (that are pretty valid just saying). You are paying for the use of their body, turning their body into a commodity that can be part of a service (sexing). Making this shit a car analogy, you hire a car, not neccesarily because the car is good, but because you need a car (the commodity) to get you places (transportation, the service).[/QUOTE] So bodyguards are illegal now too? They are literally there to take abuse in your place. BODY is in the name. Why aren't they illegal? They get paid for something that takes little more than brute force.

[QUOTE=GunFox;43030863]So bodyguards are illegal now too? They are literally there to take abuse in your place. BODY is in the name. Why aren't they illegal? They get paid for something that takes little more than brute force.[/QUOTE] bodyguard work is almost as bad but in a different way.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43030657]what sobotnik is referring to is when i worked on a beach farming these: [img]http://geoduckrecipes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/geoduck-size.jpg[/img] elephant penis factory.[/QUOTE] what the heck is that [editline]1st December 2013[/editline] anyway, i'm not for the banning of prostitution but there seems to be some pretty idealistic views here re: legalization. legalization doesn't stop sex trafficking and infact makes sex trafficking more legitimate, i.e. woman gets taken from eastern europe to germany on false pretenses, now has no money and no way home, only way out in a country where she doesn't speak the language and knows noone is to accept the only job she's offered by the people who brought her there, which is prostitution. and another thing is acting like prostitution is treated as just another job or service, when it's not just like stripping isn't. the people that run these industries don't run them like just another boss. i don't think prostitution should be illegal, but i am all for the changing of attitudes to the point where it's not really wanted

[QUOTE=hexpunK;43030777]So like, can you prove I started off at that position and attempted to find arguments from there? I entered the thread, stated my position, and provided arguments (that are pretty valid just saying). You are paying for the use of their body, turning their body into a commodity that can be part of a service (sexing). Making this shit a car analogy, you hire a car, not neccesarily because the car is good, but because you need a car (the commodity) to get you places (transportation, the service).[/QUOTE] But that's the point I've been trying to get you to understand. You don't buy their body. You buy their time and service that they need their body to perform. Just like any other (skill-less so be it) service. Their body is not something you own. They tell you what you can do and for how long and how much you pay. You can't do whatever you want. Their body is not a commodity. Their service is. Their body is a tool to provide the service you've bought. If you were buying a girl against her will and she would become your property, THEN she would be a commodity. And to your analogy: You hire a car to get you places. That's the service. The car is a tool of providing it to you. The service is the commodity here. Unless you are buying a car to own, THEN the car is the commodity.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029478]the problem with prostitution is that it treats women as a commodity to be bought and sold for money.[/QUOTE] Which is wrong, but on some level we need to recognize that it will happen anyway until our current culture shifts. Putting in safety measures to protect those being sold and used is the least we can do. Change doesn't happen overnight.

Wow these Feminist's can't help themselves can't they?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43030907]what the heck is that[/QUOTE] it's a geoduck(pronounced: gooey-duck).

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43029478]the problem with prostitution is that it treats women as a commodity to be bought and sold for money.[/QUOTE] bit like wage slavery then? :P

[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;43029037]Feminism is known for its hypocrisy. No surprises here.[/QUOTE] the feminist critique of prostitution is that women who are forced into prostitution as a means of keeping themselves alive (aka paying bills for food and shelter) are being coerced into sex. if the choice is between sex and starvation and the cold, it's not really much of a choice. it's effectively a form of rape in that regard - either fuck for money or die. granted this does not reach all women in the sex trade, some may enter it willingly for sure. it's a very conflicting issue, because there's a pretty legitimate logic behind it, however the legal status of prostitutes is a definite aid in getting them access to legal recourse and to protect them. so idk. [editline]30th November 2013[/editline] OOPS IM GONNA SKIP FIVE PAGES OF DISCUSSION

[QUOTE=JustExtreme;43031075]bit like wage slavery then? :P[/QUOTE] it's a bit worse than the way the normal wage system exploits workers because of the nature of the industry. however, you can make the same comparison between any proletariat and a prostitute. the proletariat sells his body for 8 hours a day to make profit for his boss, the prostitute sells her body for hours a day to make profit for her pimp.

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;43031076]the feminist critique of prostitution is that women who are forced into prostitution as a means of keeping themselves alive (aka paying bills for food and shelter) are being coerced into sex. if the choice is between sex and starvation and the cold, it's not really much of a choice. it's effectively a form of rape in that regard - either fuck for money or die. [/QUOTE] so if i take a job i hate so i don't starve to death, that's okay. but as soon as i'm selling sex then suddenly it's rape?

[QUOTE=hexpunK;43030524]Paying to rake leaves is paying for someones time to do a task. Paying for a bodyguard is sorta-similar to prostitution in that someone is providing you their body, but also their skill to keep people from fucking you up. Sure raking leaves is totally devoid of skill, but you are not paying for the person, you are paying for the task. When it comes to prostitution, you are paying for the person as you personally use their body. If you're going to call an argument incredibly weak, put some effort in yourself.[/QUOTE] When I work stockrooms, I'm paid to lift the objects in the room that the people who do the floor stocking are not capable of lifting. I am no different from a whore in this sense. My job is no different from a whores. Do not act like there is some line where there is none.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;43031060]it's a geoduck(pronounced: gooey-duck).[/QUOTE] do they taste good?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43031114]When I work stockrooms, I'm paid to lift the objects in the room that the people who do the floor stocking are not capable of lifting. I am no different from a whore in this sense. My job is no different from a whores. Do not act like there is some line where there is none.[/QUOTE] I'm fairly certain selling your body for simple primal gratification sucks worse than carrying crates.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43031114]When I work stockrooms, I'm paid to lift the objects in the room that the people who do the floor stocking are not capable of lifting. I am no different from a whore in this sense. My job is no different from a whores. Do not act like there is some line where there is none.[/QUOTE] 'whores' there is a line, we live in societies where promiscuous women are shunned and ridiculed. prostitution is seen as one of the most degrading jobs there is. don't even try to act like your job is the same

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43031133]'whores' there is a line, we live in societies where promiscuous women are shunned and ridiculed. prostitution is seen as one of the most degrading jobs there is. don't even try to act like your job is the same[/QUOTE] If society didn't treat them like shit this wouldn't be the case. I do not support treating prostitutes like that. Apparently being paid to do physical tasks of a physical nature and nothing else is different from doing physical tasks of a physical nature when you guys say it is? I'm not arguing it sucks more to be a prostitute. I'm not arguing they are treated properly currently. Don't go sticking words in my mouth so you have an argument here. [editline]30th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;43031126]I'm fairly certain selling your body for simple primal gratification sucks worse than carrying crates.[/QUOTE] what if that's what you wanted to do? something you felt comfortable doing? I think it depends on the situation but I think the idea that your ability to have sex is something that you can't pay for, where as anything else that a person can physically do is a-okay to pay for is a weird and totally arbitrary line based on how we currently view sex.

Dude, I'm just trying to point out that you're making a comparison between menial labor and selling your insides to be used.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43031133]'whores' there is a line, we live in societies where promiscuous women are shunned and ridiculed. prostitution is seen as one of the most degrading jobs there is. don't even try to act like your job is the same[/QUOTE]Which is a serious problem. But going "We should try to keep them from the field and hide them away." only exacerbates the stigma.

My muscles are being used. They are inside me. simple as that, I am being paid for my insides?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;43031149]If society didn't treat them like shit this wouldn't be the case. I do not support treating prostitutes like that. Apparently being paid to do physical tasks of a physical nature and nothing else is different from doing physical tasks of a physical nature when you guys say it is? I'm not arguing it sucks more to be a prostitute. I'm not arguing they are treated properly currently. Don't go sticking words in my mouth so you have an argument here.[/QUOTE] yeah i guess, that's why i feel this should be more of an argument about changing peoples ways of thinking rather than changing laws. and again, sex working is completely different. for one thing, sex isn't a purely physical activity. and sex working doesn't just take a purely physical toll especially when you take into account all the degradation and self-loathing that society causes to come with it

What you do with your body is what you do. I'd rather prostitution legalized while we attempt to reach equality instead of ban it and let it sink into the way it works in the US.