[QUOTE=karimatrix]I don't know how many times i must repeat that. NONE OF OUR SOLDIERS TANKS OR SOMeTHING ELSE CROSSED BORDERS OF GEORGIA. ALL VIDEOS OF GEORGIAN CITYES BEIGN ATTACKED IS FICTION!!! EVEN BOMB SOUND IN BACKGROUND SOUND LIKE PUKE UNLIKE REAL BOMBS! We will stay in south osetia and won't go further. Attack Georgia means get in their trap. Please repeat those words in your mind because it's like 10th time when i must say that.[/QUOTE]
>>[B]TBLISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Dozens of Russian warplanes bombed civilian and military targets in the former republic of Georgia on Saturday, and a Russian ambassador said that as many as 2,000 people had been killed in in the capital of separatist Georgian province South Ossetia.[/B]<<
[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html[/url]
I remembered I had a Soviet flag I swapped with a Russian guy for my Scottish one at a football match.
It's finally found a use hanging on my wall.
I just read about this! Shit, the Georgian Parliament has initiated Martial Law!
[QUOTE=Sporkfire]I'm still arguing with that other guy who insists the Russians are only staying in S. Osetia.[/QUOTE]
Arguening on internet is fail it means you are troll... anyway South Osetia is not part of Georgia for many years -read this sum up -
BIG POST!
Originally Posted by LesGunKid:
EVERYONE
THE REASON THE RUSSIANS ARE INVADING IS BECAUSE GEORGIA BOMBED THE CAPITAL OF OSSETIA, AND THEN INVADED THEM
WHEN THEY DID THIS, THEY BROKE ABOUT 10 TREATIES WITH RUSSIA
SO NOW THAT ALL THESE TREATIES ARE BROKEN, RUSSIA CAN/AND IS FUCKING UP GEORGIA
GEORGIA IS NOW BEING INVADED FOR FUCKING UP THE PEACE IN OSSETIA BY INVADING AND BOMBING IT
Originally Posted by Toline:
We've been bitching about who the international community should back.
Pro-Russia:
The people in South Ossetia are Russian citizens
The Georgians killed several Russian citizens
The South Ossetians wanted to join Russia anyway
South Ossetia isn't ruled by Georgia it's just in their territory
Pro-Georgia:
Russia invaded a sovereign nation(Georgia)
Russia has been planning this all along
Russia shouldn't have used military action to rescue it's citizens
Then there was some news...
Like, the Cossacks have joined up against Georgia
Russia is bombing Georgian military bases
Russia invaded Abkhazskaya
Originally Posted by MercZ:
I guess I'll go ahead and post this for those of you who don't know the history for this region. I'm not taking a stance on either side though.
Second rate, third rate, doesn't matter, a country like Georgia has no chance against a Behemoth like Russia. We just assume that the Russians have shit skill, but really they aren't as bad as what the jokes and media shows us. There's more under the belt now. And seeing that Georgia is actually an army and they're not fighting rebels like they do in Chechnya, this won't be an issue.
If you guys don't have any knowledge of this, this is what happened. Ossetia is a border region home to a small ethnic group, the Ossetia was split when Georgia became independent. Since then, Ossetians in South Ossetia, Georgia, have been causing issues on matters of their autonomy and rights, and Russia has been taking advantage of this since the late 1990s. The Ossetians in Georgia want to be back with their fellows in North Ossetia (in Russia), and have been revolting against Tbilisi for awhile, in the form of rebellions and political parties.
The people in Ossetia and Abkhazia (another breakaway province) declared their independence when Georgia declared its independence from the Soviet Union. Unlike Georgia though, Ossetia and Abkhazia demanded to be recognized as subjects of the USSR. This prompted Georgia to send in their own forces during the early 90s to secure these regions for Georgia. This resulted in a number of issues, with ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia, and disorderly conduct by Georgian soldiers in Ossetia and Abkhazia.
During the late 1990s, Georgia has accused Russia (quite rightly) that Russia has been supporting these nationalists in Ossetia and Abkhazia. The youth in these regions have been energized by revolutionary frevor and hold active political demonstrations against the Georgian government.
The people in both regions, for the most part, have no wish to be a part of Georgia. Abkhazia has watered down a bit, since they have more of a federal structure compared to the more unitary form of Georgia's government, but deep down the want independence as well. During their war against Georgia in the early 1990s, they successfully forced Georgian soldiers to pull out of the region, and gave legitimacy to their autonomy. After a short scuffle between opposing parties, they became stable and continue voicing their demands in the Georgian government (for comparison, this is much like the struggle of the Kurds who forced out Republican Guard soldiers in the early 1990s, had their own little in-fighting, and unified as "Iraqi Kurdistan" but still an autonomous province within Iraq). If these two provinces would rather be a part of Russia (or be on friendly terms like Tannu Tuva was in the 1930s before it was annexed), then in Georgia, it gives you a picture of how bad Georgia's infrastructure and politics are if they'd rather be a part of the Russians who have serious issues of their own as we all know (corruption, harsh gov't, etc etc)
During the past few months, another uprising took place in South Ossetia, prompting Georgian forces to come in with the army and slam down the hammer on the revolutionaries. Russia took offense to this crackdown and installed peacekeepers to "defend" the civilians in the region. The pretext to this was that many of the Ossetians own Russian papers so that they can visit their families in Russia, and therefore are Russian subjects.
Earlier this August, some of the soldiers and revolutionaries came into a struggle with one another, prompting further escalations. Russian peacekeepers evacuated willing Ossetians into North Ossetia in Russia, while voicing concern against the Georgian action.
These past two days was an intensive operation on the side of the Georgians, sending a fairly large armored division to stop the revolution in Ossetia. They surrounded the capital, Tskhinvali (echoing the 1992 siege), shelling it for hours and from this the civilian toll began to increase. They began bombarding evacuation routes of civilians fleeing to North Ossetia in Russia, prompting Russia to take offense, saying Georgia is taking harsh actions against the civilians.
In a sign of solidarity, Abkhazia revolutionaries have formed militias to support the Ossetian revolutionaries against Georgian oppression. Russia sees their opportunity, and taking the mantle of the defender of the poor Ossetians, started military operations as we see. Ossetian patriots in the oblast of North Ossetia-Alania in Russia (I referred to this as North Ossetia previously) have also joined in with their own volunteer regiments, moving along with the Russian Army to support their kin in South Ossetia.
What Russia's goal is, we don't know. Whether they just want to take Abkhazia and Ossetia, or possibly bring Georgia back under its heel (which I hope they won't do, but Russia's never been known to be very rational, cautious, or benevolent), Georgia has to be very careful. I doubt this'll be like the Winter War the Russians screwed up with the Fins, this will be a very terrible time for the Georgian Army. I don't think their patriotism can help them too much unfortunately.
Historically, I have a feeling this'll be like when California and Texas declared their independence from Mexico. Abkhazia will probably be like Texas, trying to be a republic but ultimately yielding to the United States. I see Ossetia like California, which was supported by the US to revolt against Mexico and declare independence, but was shortly afterwards annexed.
Another important thing to keep in mind is that while the US and Western Europe backs Georgia, it's really in order to check Russia. Just like a nearby ally, Turkey, it has its stretch of human rights violations and other issues that send messages of double standards to the world.
Russians took offense to Kosovo's independence (I support their independence by the way), saying that it wasn't fair that enemies of the West were getting their lands carved up for the ethnic divisions, while nations like Turkey, Georgia, and what not have ethnic groups of their own who are just as, if not more deserving of a nation. I'm not saying that Russia is a champion of self-determination, Chechnya shows us that.
I doubt this'll escalate any further past a regional conflict. The only thing worth anything in Georgia is an oil pipeline that travels through it, but in terms of annexing Georgia in its entirety, I'd imagine Russia wouldn't really bother. This is more of a dual thing they are doing here- sending a message to other pro-Russian allies in countries with a pro-Western government, and showing these more vocal countries like Georgia that they aren't going to stand by and watch.
And no, I'm not saying this because of "RUSSIA ARE COMMIES ERGO THEY ARE COOL LOL", just setting facts straight. Georgia isn't really as much of a victim as they are making themselves out to be.
Yeah i think we ned to repost it more often.
And never post any News for CNN - CNN is full of cakes! It being said before!
[QUOTE=Toline]Fun fact: Not true, Russia uses AK-74's and t-80's/90's along with updated air craft and naval Craft.[/QUOTE]
The updated aircrafts are still from the 70ies and 80ies, their primary fighters/interceptors are Su-37 and Mig-29.
[QUOTE=Conscript]The russian army is still residing in S. Osettia. There's only cross-border bombings of military bases in cities.
That's according to news reports anyway.[/QUOTE]
Again different meanings. I view it as beyond S. Osetia if they are bombing targets outside of it.
Do I really have to argue with someone who has a hammer and sickle in their avatar?
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy]T-72 is a tank. :eng101:[/QUOTE]
Didn't know :lol:
[QUOTE=Sporkfire]Again different meanings. I view it as beyond S. Osetia if they are bombing targets outside of it.
Do I really have to argue with someone who has a hammer and sickle in their avatar?[/QUOTE]
I see it as a way to prevent any short-term military response from georgia.
mmm, soviet onion
and what about you, do i seriously have to argue with a fucking spork, mr. fire?
Sporkfire, really, both of them are at fault, but Georgia is not innocent. They should have thought about what they were doing. They could have simply tried to grant more rights to these people and win them over, but they chose rather to be aggressive. They've been doing this since the 1990s, and now they are reaping what they are getting. They choose to scapegoat these minorities, demonize them, and so on to distract the Georgian populace from political corruption and economic instability. They should at least thought things through before they bombed refugee routes and leveled Tskhinvali.
Russia expected them to act arrogantly and now they have an excuse to slap around Georgia and wreck their NATO chances.
The president of Georgia (I won't bother copy-pasting his name again) is a cry baby really. I won't be surprised if he is forced to resign after this is all over.
[QUOTE=karimatrix]Arguening on internet is fail it means you are troll... anyway South Osetia is not part of Georgia for many years -read this sum up -
BIG POST!
Originally Posted by LesGunKid:
EVERYONE
THE REASON THE RUSSIANS ARE INVADING IS BECAUSE GEORGIA BOMBED THE CAPITAL OF OSSETIA, AND THEN INVADED THEM
WHEN THEY DID THIS, THEY BROKE ABOUT 10 TREATIES WITH RUSSIA
SO NOW THAT ALL THESE TREATIES ARE BROKEN, RUSSIA CAN/AND IS FUCKING UP GEORGIA
GEORGIA IS NOW BEING INVADED FOR FUCKING UP THE PEACE IN OSSETIA BY INVADING AND BOMBING IT
Originally Posted by Toline:
We've been bitching about who the international community should back.
Pro-Russia:
The people in South Ossetia are Russian citizens
The Georgians killed several Russian citizens
The South Ossetians wanted to join Russia anyway
South Ossetia isn't ruled by Georgia it's just in their territory
Pro-Georgia:
Russia invaded a sovereign nation(Georgia)
Russia has been planning this all along
Russia shouldn't have used military action to rescue it's citizens
Then there was some news...
Like, the Cossacks have joined up against Georgia
Russia is bombing Georgian military bases
Russia invaded Abkhazskaya
Originally Posted by MercZ:
I guess I'll go ahead and post this for those of you who don't know the history for this region. I'm not taking a stance on either side though.
Second rate, third rate, doesn't matter, a country like Georgia has no chance against a Behemoth like Russia. We just assume that the Russians have shit skill, but really they aren't as bad as what the jokes and media shows us. There's more under the belt now. And seeing that Georgia is actually an army and they're not fighting rebels like they do in Chechnya, this won't be an issue.
If you guys don't have any knowledge of this, this is what happened. Ossetia is a border region home to a small ethnic group, the Ossetia was split when Georgia became independent. Since then, Ossetians in South Ossetia, Georgia, have been causing issues on matters of their autonomy and rights, and Russia has been taking advantage of this since the late 1990s. The Ossetians in Georgia want to be back with their fellows in North Ossetia (in Russia), and have been revolting against Tbilisi for awhile, in the form of rebellions and political parties.
The people in Ossetia and Abkhazia (another breakaway province) declared their independence when Georgia declared its independence from the Soviet Union. Unlike Georgia though, Ossetia and Abkhazia demanded to be recognized as subjects of the USSR. This prompted Georgia to send in their own forces during the early 90s to secure these regions for Georgia. This resulted in a number of issues, with ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia, and disorderly conduct by Georgian soldiers in Ossetia and Abkhazia.
During the late 1990s, Georgia has accused Russia (quite rightly) that Russia has been supporting these nationalists in Ossetia and Abkhazia. The youth in these regions have been energized by revolutionary frevor and hold active political demonstrations against the Georgian government.
The people in both regions, for the most part, have no wish to be a part of Georgia. Abkhazia has watered down a bit, since they have more of a federal structure compared to the more unitary form of Georgia's government, but deep down the want independence as well. During their war against Georgia in the early 1990s, they successfully forced Georgian soldiers to pull out of the region, and gave legitimacy to their autonomy. After a short scuffle between opposing parties, they became stable and continue voicing their demands in the Georgian government (for comparison, this is much like the struggle of the Kurds who forced out Republican Guard soldiers in the early 1990s, had their own little in-fighting, and unified as "Iraqi Kurdistan" but still an autonomous province within Iraq). If these two provinces would rather be a part of Russia (or be on friendly terms like Tannu Tuva was in the 1930s before it was annexed), then in Georgia, it gives you a picture of how bad Georgia's infrastructure and politics are if they'd rather be a part of the Russians who have serious issues of their own as we all know (corruption, harsh gov't, etc etc)
During the past few months, another uprising took place in South Ossetia, prompting Georgian forces to come in with the army and slam down the hammer on the revolutionaries. Russia took offense to this crackdown and installed peacekeepers to "defend" the civilians in the region. The pretext to this was that many of the Ossetians own Russian papers so that they can visit their families in Russia, and therefore are Russian subjects.
Earlier this August, some of the soldiers and revolutionaries came into a struggle with one another, prompting further escalations. Russian peacekeepers evacuated willing Ossetians into North Ossetia in Russia, while voicing concern against the Georgian action.
These past two days was an intensive operation on the side of the Georgians, sending a fairly large armored division to stop the revolution in Ossetia. They surrounded the capital, Tskhinvali (echoing the 1992 siege), shelling it for hours and from this the civilian toll began to increase. They began bombarding evacuation routes of civilians fleeing to North Ossetia in Russia, prompting Russia to take offense, saying Georgia is taking harsh actions against the civilians.
In a sign of solidarity, Abkhazia revolutionaries have formed militias to support the Ossetian revolutionaries against Georgian oppression. Russia sees their opportunity, and taking the mantle of the defender of the poor Ossetians, started military operations as we see. Ossetian patriots in the oblast of North Ossetia-Alania in Russia (I referred to this as North Ossetia previously) have also joined in with their own volunteer regiments, moving along with the Russian Army to support their kin in South Ossetia.
What Russia's goal is, we don't know. Whether they just want to take Abkhazia and Ossetia, or possibly bring Georgia back under its heel (which I hope they won't do, but Russia's never been known to be very rational, cautious, or benevolent), Georgia has to be very careful. I doubt this'll be like the Winter War the Russians screwed up with the Fins, this will be a very terrible time for the Georgian Army. I don't think their patriotism can help them too much unfortunately.
Historically, I have a feeling this'll be like when California and Texas declared their independence from Mexico. Abkhazia will probably be like Texas, trying to be a republic but ultimately yielding to the United States. I see Ossetia like California, which was supported by the US to revolt against Mexico and declare independence, but was shortly afterwards annexed.
Another important thing to keep in mind is that while the US and Western Europe backs Georgia, it's really in order to check Russia. Just like a nearby ally, Turkey, it has its stretch of human rights violations and other issues that send messages of double standards to the world.
Russians took offense to Kosovo's independence (I support their independence by the way), saying that it wasn't fair that enemies of the West were getting their lands carved up for the ethnic divisions, while nations like Turkey, Georgia, and what not have ethnic groups of their own who are just as, if not more deserving of a nation. I'm not saying that Russia is a champion of self-determination, Chechnya shows us that.
I doubt this'll escalate any further past a regional conflict. The only thing worth anything in Georgia is an oil pipeline that travels through it, but in terms of annexing Georgia in its entirety, I'd imagine Russia wouldn't really bother. This is more of a dual thing they are doing here- sending a message to other pro-Russian allies in countries with a pro-Western government, and showing these more vocal countries like Georgia that they aren't going to stand by and watch.
And no, I'm not saying this because of "RUSSIA ARE COMMIES ERGO THEY ARE COOL LOL", just setting facts straight. Georgia isn't really as much of a victim as they are making themselves out to be.
Yeah i think we ned to repost it more often.
And never post any News for CNN - CNN is full of cakes! It being said before![/QUOTE]
That's how Russia has operated for DECADES. They slowly muscle/intimidate and influence whatever region they want. When Pro-Russians attacked those who were still loyal to Georgia, did the the "peacekeepers" do anything about? No.
I guess if the U.S started handing out passports to Iraqis, they would be able to claim it as their own right? If you got citizens and "peacekeepers" a region is yours? Brilliant!
[QUOTE=Beafman]>>[B]TBLISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Dozens of Russian warplanes bombed civilian and military targets in the former republic of Georgia on Saturday, and a Russian ambassador said that as many as 2,000 people had been killed in in the capital of separatist Georgian province South Ossetia.[/B]<<
[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Pictures are from Tshinval.I seen them 12 hours ago. CNN DAMN YOU AND YOUR LIES!
[b]Edit:[/b]
[QUOTE=Sporkfire]That's how Russia has operated for DECADES. They slowly muscle/intimidate and influence whatever region they want. When Pro-Russians attacked those who were still loyal to Georgia, did the the "peacekeepers" do anything about? No.[/QUOTE]
Where you live? Name the country or region please.
Russia shall roll out the new T-95 and blow Georgia into space, scaring Bush back in to bed with his teddy bears.
[QUOTE=Sporkfire]That's how Russia has operated for DECADES. They slowly muscle/intimidate and influence whatever region they want. When Pro-Russians attacked those who were still loyal to Georgia, did the the "peacekeepers" do anything about? No.[/QUOTE]
Not really, the populace of Askhbazia and Ossetia really seem to be more friendly towards the Russians then they are with the Georgians. Russia simply saw an opening here and took advantage of it. Most countries do that really. Doesn't give Georgia an excuse to bomb civilians to hell really though.
Well 1st. - Georgia started to bomb the South Osetia, and russian peacekeepers and citizens. Russia said Georgia to stop but G eorgia just ignored it ! Then Russia enetered 150 tanks and 20 trucks with soldiers to the South Osetia... and started to bomb Georgia. Georgia still does NOT stop.
[QUOTE=karimatrix]Pictures are from Tshinval.I seen them 12 hours ago. CNN DAMN YOU AND YOUR LIES!
[b]Edit:[/b]
Where you live? Name the country or region please.[/QUOTE]
And where do you live?
Got to go sleep - Russia go!!!
Yeah!
[img]http://www.russian-flag.org/russian-flag-640.jpg[/img]
Karim Tenchurin, Russia, Moscow, Good night, Good fight.
Does it really matter where who lives? It's not really relevant.
Just because someone doesn't think Russia is at fault doesn't mean they are head over heels horny for Russia (though unfortunately we have some of those USSR happy pricks in here), but just checking the history of the region sheds much more light on the situation than the news articles do.
We can lambast our Western media, but honestly they are much more accurate than Russian or Georgian state media. This misconception is arriving because the news media is just reporting what's going on. Yes, Russia did go into South Ossetia, but they don't cover the history of the region's issues, and that's expected, they can't make news articles too long.
Georgia's not a worthwhile ally for the West to keep under its wing if it continues acting in this manner. I doubt NATO wants anything to do with Georgia anymore.
[QUOTE=MercZ]Does it really matter where who lives? It's not really relevant.
Just because someone doesn't think Russia is at fault doesn't mean they are head over heels horny for Russia (though unfortunately we have some of those USSR happy pricks in here), but just checking the history of the region sheds much more light on the situation than the news articles do.
We can lambast our Western media, but honestly they are much more accurate than Russian or Georgian state media. This misconception is arriving because the news media is just reporting what's going on. Yes, Russia did go into South Ossetia, but they don't cover the history of the region's issues, and that's expected, they can't make news articles too long.
Georgia's not a worthwhile ally for the West to keep under its wing if it continues acting in this manner. I doubt NATO wants anything to do with Georgia anymore.[/QUOTE]
Agreed
next major event is to see if Russia will try and shoot down the USAF transports hauling Georgian equipment and men
if they do...
[b] ITS WORLD IN CONFLICT ALL OVER AGAIN! [/b]
[QUOTE=DireAvenger][b] ITS WORLD IN CONFLICT ALL OVER AGAIN! [/b][/QUOTE]
it's the beginning of WW3.
[QUOTE=MrSman]it's the beginning of WW3.[/QUOTE]
Not yet.
All tough, I will say, this is, as I understand, EXACTLY how Battlefield: Bad Company started...
[QUOTE=STeel]Fun Fact: Both armies use weapons, and machines from 30 years ago.[/QUOTE]
Umm, what about the Su-34s that just entered Russian service in 2007?
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN09481523[/url]
russia ain't fuckin' around
[QUOTE=LesGunKid]Umm, what about the Su-34s that just entered Russian service in 2007?[/QUOTE]
And however, it's almost 20 years old.
Ummm U.S. is [b]NOT[/b] the world judge
[QUOTE=Arachnidus]Not yet.
All tough, I will say, this is, as I understand, EXACTLY how Battlefield: Bad Company started...[/QUOTE]
Wasn't that because Haggard wanted gold and invaded a neutral coun...
Oh wait
[QUOTE=STeel]And however, it's almost 20 years old.[/QUOTE]
O really ?
[img]http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/600/putinvladimirs600x6001av2.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Sporkfire]
Do I really have to argue with someone who has a hammer and sickle in their avatar?[/QUOTE]
LOL ZING
I'm just kidding that was pretty pathetic. Did I fool you?
Oh god, the US better not act like they're the police of the planet again and try to interfere. Look what happened in Vietnam.
anyways, I'm rooting for Russia!
[img]http://russianet.googlegroups.com/web/Russian%20Flag.jpg?gda=Sne7ukEAAACOjFzJve04iSUOzGTvGtH-3fAcOn_80OZuuB4-vLWPBGG1qiJ7UbTIup-M2XPURDQrKXNKOOgZFYegnIAxD5N1NOfskmWVvHzB1T8lPOHyJg[/img]
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