More U.N. peacekeepers than ever fail to stop African wars
105 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;43415033]You just said "peacekeeping isn't working".
You didn't say anything about methods, you literally used the words peacekeeping isn't working
we don't need another suggestion, we just need to become better at peacekeeping.[/QUOTE]
Because by itself it isn't working. Which is way I also said "in conjunction with out current peace keeping efforts." Saying that we just need to become better is pretty blanket statement.
It could only really apply to children/people whose family members have been affected or destroyed by war, and that doesn't make the general populace war-weary at all.
Unless you count kids, teens, and young adults who got frustrated when they kept losing at their combat shooters as "war-weary".
[QUOTE=ExplosiveCheese;43415123]Because by itself it isn't working. Which is way I also said "in conjunction with out current peace keeping efforts." Saying that we just need to become better is pretty blanket statement.[/QUOTE]
Depends what you mean by "it isn't working"
if by that you mean it's having no appreciable effect, you're totally wrong
if you mean "it hasn't solved the entire problem in the country" you're asking too much.
Isn't this the reason why the African Union exists?
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;43415144]Depends what you mean by "it isn't working"
if by that you mean it's having no appreciable effect, you're totally wrong
if you mean "it hasn't solved the entire problem in the country" you're asking too much.[/QUOTE]
Of course it has an appreciable effect.
Is that not the purpose of the peacekeeping? To act as mediator in the conflict in question for opposing forces? If we have not accomplished that, then I'm not asking to much, I'm saying it has failed, and continued to fail (hence the thread title) due to variables within the UN itself, ect. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, I'm saying a different tactic should be utilized, perhaps that could be some policy changes. Among other things. Every conflict is different, like Megafan pointed out.
[QUOTE=katbug;43412246]why do we think it's our job to stop these wars
Set up camps, have a DMZ of x number of meters, let anyone who wants to escape the shitfest in. Done.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;43412275]It can be like Escape from New York, but with africa.
[I]Escape from Central African Republic[/I][/QUOTE]
I feel morbid for thinking it, but that's a good game idea.
(probably not the right time to say that...)
[QUOTE=katbug;43412246]why do we think it's our job to stop these wars[/QUOTE]
Because it is
[quote=UN Charter, Article 1]The Purposes of the United Nations are:
1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;[/quote]
[QUOTE=smurfy;43415403]Because it is[/QUOTE]
I know that's in the UN
But I don't understand why we think it should be that way (I.E. why we made the charter agree to fighting or stopping other countries wars)
[QUOTE=Camundongo;43412713]The UN Peacekeepers can't do shit unless people target them, I believe, it's in their mandate, and people are loathe to give them more power. It's like the UN in general, stuck in an impossible place - it's derided as powerless, but if it tried to to exert more power then people would decry it as being too powerful and threatening the sovereignty of member states.[/QUOTE]
It varies for each mission. The main 'force' parts of the UNMISS mandate laid out in [url=http://unscr.com/en/resolutions/doc/1996]Resolution 1996[/url] are:
[quote=UNSCR 1996, Paragraph 3][The Security Council] Decides that the mandate of UNMISS shall be to consolidate peace and security ... and accordingly authorizes UNMISS to perform the following tasks;
...(b)...
(iv) Advising and assisting the Government of the Republic of South Sudan, including military and police at national and local levels as appropriate, in fulfilling its responsibility to protect civilians, in compliance with international humanitarian, human rights, and refugee law;
(v) Deterring violence including through proactive deployment and patrols in areas at high risk of conflict, within its capabilities and in its areas of deployment, protecting civilians under imminent threat of physical violence, in particular when the Government of the Republic of South Sudan is not providing such security;
(vi) Providing security for United Nations and humanitarian personnel, installations and equipment necessary for implementation of mandated tasks, bearing in mind the importance of mission mobility, and contributing to the creation of security conditions conducive to safe, timely, and unimpeded humanitarian assistance;[/quote]
[quote=UNSCR 1996, Paragraph 4]4. Authorizes UNMISS to use all necessary means, within the limits of its capacity and in the areas where its units are deployed, to carry out its protection mandate as set out in paragraphs 3 (b) (iv), 3 (b) (v), and 3 (b) (vi);[/quote]
I have a even better solution:
Place every african country under UN control, dismantle and put all ethnicities haveing their country
overkill best kill
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;43415712]I have a even better solution:
Place every african country under UN control, dismantle and put all ethnicities haveing their country
overkill best kill[/QUOTE]
An occupation and mass relocation would kill more people.
snip
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;43414746]Tell that to the kids that don't have moms and dad's anymore. Or the parents that have to explain why "daddy aint got legs". Or parents telling their kids "dont point at that man, sure he's got no arms and legs, that's war". It's all over the fucking news, people watch it all the time, it's whats talked about around the kitchen table. While they aren't sitting there ACTIVELY being blown up, they've not had peace either.[/QUOTE]
The number of soldiers the US has (in proportion to the total population) is tiny. An even tinier number die or get badly mauled and injured.
America hasn't seen a real proper bloody castastrofuck of a war that really hit people hard since probably the civil war. The World Wars are a bit dubious since the continental USA never saw a full scale invasion, mass bombing, rationing, mass civilian casualties, etc.
Compare say the former Yugoslav countries, which saw a great deal of violence and various war crimes over the past quarter of a century and only started to calm down recently. Most people there know they were in a violent and horrific conflict. Americans haven't had that experience.
[QUOTE=katbug;43415491]I know that's in the UN
But I don't understand why we think it should be that way (I.E. why we made the charter agree to fighting or stopping other countries wars)[/QUOTE]
Because trying to bring about global peace (as much as possible) is the right thing to do?? Those of us with the resources to actually contribute to this goal should feel obligated to try our hardest??? To not be shitty humans????
It's not hard to work out why we chartered this stuff, just think about it for longer than 5 seconds.
Oh well. Africa is a lost cause, it's a shit hole that refuses to fix itself. If you dropped them tools to build a better tomorrow they'd just kill each other with the tools
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43415916]Because trying to bring about global peace (as much as possible) is the right thing to do?? Those of us with the resources to actually contribute to this goal should feel obligated to try our hardest??? To not be shitty humans????
It's not hard to work out why we chartered this stuff, just think about it for longer than 5 seconds.[/QUOTE]
But it costs money!!!
[editline]4th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheTalon;43416104]Oh well. Africa is a lost cause, it's a shit hole that refuses to fix itself. If you dropped them tools to build a better tomorrow they'd just kill each other with the tools[/QUOTE]
Wow
[QUOTE=TheTalon;43416104]Oh well. Africa is a lost cause, it's a shit hole that refuses to fix itself. If you dropped them tools to build a better tomorrow they'd just kill each other with the tools[/QUOTE]
Yeah africa is a savage filled shithole that needs to be turned into lebensraum for more civilised folk btw i'm not racist
- Signed, Facepunch
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43416157]Yeah africa is a savage filled shithole that needs to be turned into lebensraum for more civilised folk btw i'm not racist
- Signed, Facepunch[/QUOTE]
Quit stealing my bits
[QUOTE=TheTalon;43416104]Oh well. Africa is a lost cause, it's a shit hole that refuses to fix itself. If you dropped them tools to build a better tomorrow they'd just kill each other with the tools[/QUOTE]
Which part of Africa?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43416187]Which part of Africa?[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00407/map_nica126573412_407180c.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=The Aussie;43413482]Wow. It would be better to just lets thousands of people die, just let them fight it out, let countless atrocities be committed because YOU fucking think they won't get better? Hey, you've got yours right? So fuck 'em, right? Why should you bother helping them, it's obviously their fault they were born there? It could never get better right? That area of the world is just fucked right? Fuck you.
Lemme tell you my favourite story to tell to people like you. Cambodia is a tiny, desperately poor country in the middle of south east asia. Sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam. During the vietnam war, something happened that a lot of people don't know about. The UN did of course, they just kept on fighting in vietnam. The khmer rouge happened. Pol Pot, a guy i think is roughly on par with Adolf Hitler. Pol Pot was a fanatical communist who took power from the democratically elected Cambodian government way back in the 70's. He was supplied with weapons by his communist friends in North Vietnam, and using that, waged a terrible civil war that caught almost the entire country in it's grasp. The Americans carpet bombed most of east Cambodia as well, destroying pretty much everything. This isn't actually the bad part. It was the precursor to the hell that the Cambodians would suffer with for the next few years. See, Pol Pot hated intelligent people, he hated city people. He believed that Cambodia would be strong if everyone got out of the cities and worked the land. So, as the armies of the Khmer rouge marched into Phnom Phen, the capital, they were welcomed as liberators. With in 12 hours, phnom phen was completely empty. Sent to live off in the countryside. Families were of course split up. That's when the real horror began. Remember when i said Pol Pot didn't like intelligent people? He responded to this by killing them. Their families. Anyone who they were associated with. Each would be photographed, tortured to produce a confession, and then killed. Bullets were expensive. Children, even babies were subject to no such special treatment. In fact, at a certain killing field, there is a big tree where the heads of babies were smashed against trees. You can still see teeth on the ground, forty fucking years later. What qualified as being intelligent? Well, any sort of degree, speaking another language, old governmental positions, no matter how small, and glasses. Wearing glasses got you and your entire family killed. Oh, and i don't know why, but the Kher Rouge loved mines. Mines to deter attackers, mines to keep people in, all kinds. Big ones, little ones, ones that shoot out glass. Cambodia is one of the worlds most heavily mined countries. It also has one of the worlds highest amputee rates.
But then things got better. Pol Pot was ousted by the Vietnamese after the war. They stayed behind and helped rebuild the country. It was a slow process, but things are getting better. The region stabilised. Help was given. Mines were cleared. 800 people died a year from mines in 2004, now it's only 250, largely due to the efforts of overseas charities. Things are still bad, but it's incredible for a country recovering from literal total destruction. In the end, the death toll was one third of Cambodians population. Equal across men, women and children. Would you guess that this national horror left the Cambodians bitter? Fuck no. They are the nicest people i've ever met, hands down. The people i've met there are some of the most genuinely lovely people. Things do get better, and there is no excuse to stop trying at all. Maybe if America, instead of bombing the fuck out of east Cambodia to settle their grudge match had, say done some God damn peacekeeping in a country that needed it's help far more than Vietnam did maybe this wouldn'tve happened. It doesn't have to even be the US, god knows they are fucking shitty at peacekeeping. Australia's involvement in East Timor is an example of it done right.
I don't have the solution. People smarter than me are much better suited. But the answer in no way is to just fucking "let them duke it out". I can not put into words the level of fucking ignorance, teenage edginess and disregard for humanity your comment contains. I can't actually put into words how much this comment pisses me off. Your mindset. Your fucking mindset is what's wrong. The mindset of i've got mine so who fucking cares is the problem with first world thinking. I just can't understand. Is the lives of few for the lives of many so hard for you to get? This isn't "meddling" as some of you put it. This is about preventing a large scale war that is almost guaranteed to be bloody and end up in the deaths of many, many innocent people. This isn't an Afghanistan situation, it's a Rwanda one.[/QUOTE]
I apologize for causing offense, but I am speaking from the American viewpoint, where everywhere we fucking go we make it worse.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;43416249]I apologize for causing offense, but I am speaking from the American viewpoint, where everywhere we fucking go we make it worse.[/QUOTE]
you said you wanted 3rd world 'shitholes' to kill themselves off because they have no value.
But thank you, Ambassador of The Third- er Freudian slip - America.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43416272]you said you wanted 3rd world 'shitholes' to kill themselves off because they have no value.
But thank you, Ambassador of The Third- er Freudian slip - America.[/QUOTE]
You're welcome.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;43416249]I apologize for causing offense, but I am speaking from the American viewpoint, where everywhere we fucking go we make it worse.[/QUOTE]
This is where we start having problems. Hell, I'm pretty sure I pointed this out the last page.
[QUOTE=The Aussie;43413482]Wow. It would be better to just lets thousands of people die, just let them fight it out, let countless atrocities be committed because YOU fucking think they won't get better? Hey, you've got yours right? So fuck 'em, right? Why should you bother helping them, it's obviously their fault they were born there? It could never get better right? That area of the world is just fucked right? Fuck you.
Lemme tell you my favourite story to tell to people like you. Cambodia is a tiny, desperately poor country in the middle of south east asia. Sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam. During the vietnam war, something happened that a lot of people don't know about. The UN did of course, they just kept on fighting in vietnam. The khmer rouge happened. Pol Pot, a guy i think is roughly on par with Adolf Hitler. Pol Pot was a fanatical communist who took power from the democratically elected Cambodian government way back in the 70's. He was supplied with weapons by his communist friends in North Vietnam, and using that, waged a terrible civil war that caught almost the entire country in it's grasp. The Americans carpet bombed most of east Cambodia as well, destroying pretty much everything. This isn't actually the bad part. It was the precursor to the hell that the Cambodians would suffer with for the next few years. See, Pol Pot hated intelligent people, he hated city people. He believed that Cambodia would be strong if everyone got out of the cities and worked the land. So, as the armies of the Khmer rouge marched into Phnom Phen, the capital, they were welcomed as liberators. With in 12 hours, phnom phen was completely empty. Sent to live off in the countryside. Families were of course split up. That's when the real horror began. Remember when i said Pol Pot didn't like intelligent people? He responded to this by killing them. Their families. Anyone who they were associated with. Each would be photographed, tortured to produce a confession, and then killed. Bullets were expensive. Children, even babies were subject to no such special treatment. In fact, at a certain killing field, there is a big tree where the heads of babies were smashed against trees. You can still see teeth on the ground, forty fucking years later. What qualified as being intelligent? Well, any sort of degree, speaking another language, old governmental positions, no matter how small, and glasses. Wearing glasses got you and your entire family killed. Oh, and i don't know why, but the Kher Rouge loved mines. Mines to deter attackers, mines to keep people in, all kinds. Big ones, little ones, ones that shoot out glass. Cambodia is one of the worlds most heavily mined countries. It also has one of the worlds highest amputee rates.
But then things got better. Pol Pot was ousted by the Vietnamese after the war. They stayed behind and helped rebuild the country. It was a slow process, but things are getting better. The region stabilised. Help was given. Mines were cleared. 800 people died a year from mines in 2004, now it's only 250, largely due to the efforts of overseas charities. Things are still bad, but it's incredible for a country recovering from literal total destruction. In the end, the death toll was one third of Cambodians population. Equal across men, women and children. Would you guess that this national horror left the Cambodians bitter? Fuck no. They are the nicest people i've ever met, hands down. The people i've met there are some of the most genuinely lovely people. Things do get better, and there is no excuse to stop trying at all. Maybe if America, instead of bombing the fuck out of east Cambodia to settle their grudge match had, say done some God damn peacekeeping in a country that needed it's help far more than Vietnam did maybe this wouldn'tve happened. It doesn't have to even be the US, god knows they are fucking shitty at peacekeeping. Australia's involvement in East Timor is an example of it done right.
I don't have the solution. People smarter than me are much better suited. But the answer in no way is to just fucking "let them duke it out". I can not put into words the level of fucking ignorance, teenage edginess and disregard for humanity your comment contains. I can't actually put into words how much this comment pisses me off. Your mindset. Your fucking mindset is what's wrong. The mindset of i've got mine so who fucking cares is the problem with first world thinking. I just can't understand. Is the lives of few for the lives of many so hard for you to get? This isn't "meddling" as some of you put it. This is about preventing a large scale war that is almost guaranteed to be bloody and end up in the deaths of many, many innocent people. This isn't an Afghanistan situation, it's a Rwanda one.[/QUOTE]
Great post and one more people need to read. One thing that really boggles my mind, though, is why people readily accept this viewpoint in regards to Africa, but then when the discussion is about the Middle East suddenly the overwhelming sentiment is 'God, we can't make them play nice, let's just fuck off and ignore the whole thing'.
You have any idea why that is? I've got nothing.
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;43412996]We should just let everything solve itself because trying to meddle in foreign affairs NEVER results in long-term gains[/QUOTE]
Well I wouldn't go that far. The US did Korea, Japan and Europe some good.
[QUOTE=catbarf;43417190]Great post and one more people need to read. One thing that really boggles my mind, though, is why people readily accept this viewpoint in regards to Africa, but then when the discussion is about the Middle East suddenly the overwhelming sentiment is 'God, we can't make them play nice, let's just fuck off and ignore the whole thing'.
You have any idea why that is? I've got nothing.[/QUOTE]
Presumably it's because people look at the incompetence of the post-war reconstructions in Afghanistan and Iraq and assume that any attempt in the Middle East will always end the same way.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43415915]The World Wars are a bit dubious since the continental USA never saw a full scale invasion, mass bombing, rationing, mass civilian casualties, etc.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing#United_States]There [i]was[/i] rationing though[/url], perhaps not on the same scale as the rest of allies, but still a significant amount.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;43414624]They are an active combat force with APCs, tanks, IFVs, attack helicopters, and everything in between. The stereotype of the UN as pacifist bystanders is a fabrication.[/QUOTE]
They have limited ability to act. In Yugoslavia they would have to watch genocide happen and not be able to do anything.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43417842]They have limited ability to act. In Yugoslavia they would have to watch genocide happen and not be able to do anything.[/QUOTE]
The troops that didn't do anything to prevent the genocide in Srebrenica actually got medals.
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