Israel quietly watches Egyptian turmoil - Polidicks

Israel intervenes : ZIONIST INVADER SCUM Israel doesn't intervene: APATHETIC JEWISH SWINE

[QUOTE=Garrus.;27777974]Israel's probably shitting itself thinking that this rebellion might spread...[/QUOTE] I think the Saudis and Jordanians are more worried, to be honest. [editline]31st January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=TH89;27775315]Really? Since when? Last I heard the Egyptian military was doing crowd control.[/QUOTE] Who is giving said crowds rides on their tanks and encouraging anti-government graffiti to be drawn on same vehicles.

[QUOTE=Oneperson;27778170]Israel intervenes : ZIONIST INVADER SCUM Israel doesn't intervene: APATHETIC JEWISH SWINE[/QUOTE] Welcome to FP, home of the double standard.

[QUOTE=Garrus.;27777974]Israel's probably shitting itself thinking that this rebellion might spread...[/QUOTE] Not really, what do you think we have to rebel about?

AmazingAtheist made a pretty good rant. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SVrRSBWPgU[/media]

[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;27781354]AmazingAtheist made a pretty good rant. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SVrRSBWPgU[/media][/QUOTE] That guy said the Mensheviks were the ones that believed in majoritarian rule, menshe means less. He has no idea what he's talking about.

[QUOTE=TH89;27775315]Really? Since when? Last I heard the Egyptian military was doing crowd control.[/QUOTE] The media's being careful not to explicitly state the military's allegiance (probably because even the military as a whole haven't stated whose side they're on). However, considering they simply stood next to protesters and watched on as they torched police stations and government buildings to the ground and didn't even try to intervene I'd say they're probably more on the protesters side than the government's side. There was one military commander who took off his uniform and jumped down from an APC and joined the protesters in the crowd stating that he'd help them protest on the condition that the protesters dispersed at night time and at least partially obeyed the curfew so that the military could draw a line between who was a legitimate protester, and who was a looter. Other than asking people nicely to obey curfew they haven't actually made any real attempt to enforce it, however.

I don't get why you guys are arguing with Sobotnik, he's pretty much right. Revolution only happens when the government is too weak to efficiently control its populace. The country could be full of daisies and sunshine but if the government is weak then there is a good chance of revolution assuming there is a very ideologically driven person to lead the rebels. [QUOTE=Van-man;27774155]Or the people is too strong to be controlled by a dictator with a warped sense of reality and human rights.[/QUOTE] China is one of the most closed down societies in the world yet it is still able to keep its people in check through brute force. [QUOTE=Haxxer;27774218]or that millions and millions of pissed off, angry, fed up people can make a change?[/QUOTE] Not with a strong central government with a loyal military. [QUOTE=TH89;27775315]Really? Since when? Last I heard the Egyptian military was doing crowd control.[/QUOTE] Their version of crowd control is shooting over the crowd's heads, which the protesters take as a sign of support.

[QUOTE=TH89;27775315]Really? Since when? Last I heard the Egyptian military was doing crowd control.[/QUOTE] :downs:

[QUOTE=yawmwen;27789975]I don't get why you guys are arguing with Sobotnik, he's pretty much right. Revolution only happens when the government is too weak to efficiently control its populace.[/QUOTE] The reason could be that many facepunchers have not read enough history to realize this. In pretty much every nation in the world that has fallen due to revolution it is mainly due to the inability of the government rather than the people.

Makes perfect sense to me, Egypt was against the foundation of Israel and their relations have never been good. I don't see why Israel would choose to intervene really.

[QUOTE=archie200034;27793116]Makes perfect sense to me, Egypt was against the foundation of Israel and their relations have never been good. I don't see why Israel would choose to intervene really.[/QUOTE] You're misinformed. [editline]1st February 2011[/editline] The current Egyptian dictator sucks Israel's cock. The people are trying to overthrow Mubarak and Israel does not like this and has expressed support for Mubarak and the end of the protests. [editline]1st February 2011[/editline] [B]It seems almost everyone is misunderstanding the OP. The title and the article is not meant to make israel look apathetic. If you had the slightest knowledge on geopolitics you'd know of Egypt's extreme pro Israel stance, Israel enjoys this. The first reaction most people wanted to know was Israel's since this will effect them extremely. Israel has decided to remain silent at the time of the article, but later expressed support for Mubarak. [/b] [editline]1st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Oneperson;27778170]Israel intervenes : ZIONIST INVADER SCUM Israel doesn't intervene: APATHETIC JEWISH SWINE[/QUOTE] My above post was primarily directed at you and the 11 idiots who rated agree.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;27789975]I don't get why you guys are arguing with Sobotnik, he's pretty much right. Revolution only happens when the government is too weak to efficiently control its populace. The country could be full of daisies and sunshine but if the government is weak then there is a good chance of revolution assuming there is a very ideologically driven person to lead the rebels.[/QUOTE] Good point, merciless authoritarianism is the only form of government which does not lead to revolution

[QUOTE=TH89;27794248]Good point, merciless authoritarianism is the only form of government which does not lead to revolution[/QUOTE] And a democratic republic :smug:

[QUOTE=TH89;27794248]Good point, merciless authoritarianism is the only form of government which does not lead to revolution[/QUOTE] It took Russia 300 years and even then it was because they lost a war.

Why is there a thread for this? Israel does stupid shit sometimes but why is this news worthy? They're literally going out of their way to find things to accuse them of. "ISRAEL DOES NOTHING. THEY MUST BE PLOTTING." But I don't get because if they [i]were[/i] actually doing something everyone would flip shit because Israeli is messing with foreign affairs they shouldn't tread on. Israel can literally do nothing and still make the news for being an evil Jewish state.

[QUOTE=Ridge;27794259]And a democratic republic :smug:[/QUOTE] Whoosh

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;27794548]Why is there a thread for this? Israel does stupid shit sometimes but why is this news worthy? They're literally going out of their way to find things to accuse them of. "ISRAEL DOES NOTHING. THEY MUST BE PLOTTING." But I don't get because if they [i]were[/i] actually doing something everyone would flip shit because Israeli is messing with foreign affairs they shouldn't tread on. Israel can literally do nothing and still make the news for being an evil Jewish state.[/QUOTE] Can you guys not read a few posts above, which is in bold.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;27793191] but later expressed support for Mubarak. [/QUOTE] Source please.

[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27809872]Source please.[/QUOTE] [URL]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2044929,00.html[/URL] [editline]2nd February 2011[/editline] [URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8293536/Egypt-crisis-Israel-rallies-to-support-of-Egyptian-regime.html[/URL] [editline]2nd February 2011[/editline] [URL]http://www.france24.com/en/20110131-israel-seeks-support-mubarak-report[/URL]

[QUOTE=Starpluck;27809906][URL]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2044929,00.html[/URL] [editline]2nd February 2011[/editline] [URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8293536/Egypt-crisis-Israel-rallies-to-support-of-Egyptian-regime.html[/URL] [editline]2nd February 2011[/editline] [URL]http://www.france24.com/en/20110131-israel-seeks-support-mubarak-report[/URL][/QUOTE] So, do you know why? Is the explanation that Israel supports dictators good enough for you or do you actually know why they would express such opinions?

[QUOTE=Devodiere;27809997]So, do you know why? Is the explanation that Israel supports dictators good enough for you or do you actually know why they would express such opinions?[/QUOTE] Because Mubarark supports Israel. Isn't this clear?

[QUOTE=Devodiere;27809997]So, do you know why? Is the explanation that Israel supports dictators good enough for you or do you actually know why they would express such opinions?[/QUOTE] Because Mubarak supports Israel.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;27810006]Because Mubarark supports Israel. Isn't this clear?[/QUOTE] More than that. If another regime was to come into place, they are uncertain that they would even be peaceful. Most of the world is confident that something good will come but Israel isn't. They also have more to lose as if the new regime has a more hostile approach to Israel, they could be in for another war, they lose a very helpful player in the Israel-Palestine talks, a lot of work goes down the drain. They cannot intervene directly and other than trying for diplomatic support, all it's up to is the hope that it won't turn nasty. And it's not "support", they are allies. Support makes it seem like Egypt is subservient to them, both countries benefit from the peace and diplomatic relations.

Because Israel fears the installation of a Muslim-Brotherhood-esque Islamic theocracy that could threaten Israel's tentative position of peace in the Middle East. Comments made the other day suggest that Israel is not opposed to the replacement of Mubarak with a stable leadership which would maintain peace with Israel. However, given the rising support for the Brotherhood, that seems less apparent everyday. Thus, Israel support's Mubarak, because it's safer for them than the alternative. Is this good for the Egyptians? No. However, should Israel put a greater priority on the well-being of Egyptians than on the well-being of Israelis? No. My source - [url]http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFLDE71022X20110201[/url]

[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;27810084]Because Israel fears the installation of a Muslim-Brotherhood-esque Islamic theocracy that could threaten Israel's tentative position of peace in the Middle East. Comments made the other day suggest that Israel is not opposed to the replacement of Mubarak with a stable leadership which would maintain peace with Israel. However, given the rising support for the Brotherhood, that seems less apparent everyday. Thus, Israel support's Mubarak, because it's safer for them than the alternative. Is this good for the Egyptians? No. However, should Israel put a greater priority on the well-being of Egyptians than on the well-being of Israelis? No. My source - [URL]http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFLDE71022X20110201[/URL][/QUOTE] The possibility of something like that coming to power was exaggerated and was a poorly made effort to keep Mubarak in power. Israel and possibly Mubarak are using them as a scapegoat to justify Mubarak’s continual dictatorship amongst the people. This should be clear. [URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/31/egypt-protesters-islamists-muslim-brotherhood[/URL] [quote] Egypt's Islamist opposition has vowed to "respect the will of the Egyptian people" if Hosni Mubarak's regime falls, amid concern from western leaders that religious extremism might proliferate following the anti-government uprising. Tony Blair, the Middle East peace envoy, warned that Egypt might take a backward step "into a very reactionary form of religious autocracy". But his words carried limited resonance in Egypt, where the Muslim Brotherhood – the country's largest opposition force – has played little more than a walk-on role in the unprecedented protests that have shaken one of the Middle East's oldest and most entrenched dictatorships. [B]"There is widespread exaggeration about the role of the Brotherhood in Egyptian society, and I think these demonstrations have exposed that," said Khalil al-Anani, an expert on Egypt's political Islamists at Durham University. "At first the movement showed little interest in the protests and announced they weren't going to participate; later they were overtaken by events and forced to get involved or risk losing all credibility."[/B] [B]Egypt's ongoing intifada or uprising has been largely leaderless, planned initially by secular online activist groups and quickly gathering a momentum of its own, as protesters managed to beat riot police off the streets and inspire belief that Mubarak's security forces could be overcome.[/B] [B]Even on Friday, when the Brotherhood finally threw its weight behind efforts to bring down the government – a stance its leadership initially held back from – Islamist slogans were noticeable by their absence, and the formal contribution of the movement remained limited.[/B] [B]"Like many others, I participated in these protests not as a Brotherhood member but as an Egyptian, even though both labels apply to me," said Mohamed al-Assas, a 35-year-old media production worker in Cairo. "Many of the older political leaders, not just of the Brotherhood, but of other formal parties as well, were not so enthusiastic about the demonstrations. But that doesn't matter because this is a youth revolution – we don't need leaders to tell us what to do."[/B] The group was formed in 1928 and is still officially outlawed. Hundreds of Brotherhood members have been jailed in periodic crackdowns, yet it is from the existence of the Brotherhood, and the regime's perceived ability to suppress its influence, that Mubarak has derived much of his legitimacy in international circles. [B]This, combined with the fact that the Brotherhood's current leadership has often devoted more of its energies to "dawa", or social evangelism, than overtly political projects, has led many analysts to accuse it of a symbiotic relationship with the government it claims to resist. At crucial moments of popular public tension with the Mubarak regime in recent years, such as the killing of three people in the Delta town of El Mahalla El Kubra in April 2008, and during an attempted general strike one year later, the Brotherhood has opted to take a relatively non-combative stand towards the authorities.[/B] [B]"The Mubarak regime was adept at inflating the influence of the Brotherhood and painting them as a threat to Egyptian society and to the west," said Anani. "It was the pretext for Mubarak's rule, and it was a lie. I think that if Egypt held free and fair elections tomorrow the Brotherhood would not get a majority; it would enjoy a significant presence in parliament, but the overall makeup of seats would be pluralistic."[/B] Mindful of the limitations of their popular support, and the danger of their involvement in protests being used as an excuse for the west to maintain support for Mubarak, the leadership of the Brotherhood therefore stood back as the past week's revolt unfolded. Only in the past two days have senior figures begun publicly taking part in the jockeying for position in a post-Mubarak Egypt, and they have done so as unobtrusively as possible, mandating the non-Islamist Nobel peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei to help lead any transitional government and promising a "populist stance" in the future. "The Brotherhood realises the sensitivities, especially in the west, towards the Islamists, and we're not keen to be at the forefront," announced Mohamed el-Beltagui, a senior Brotherhood leader, on Monday. "We're trying to build a democratic arena before we start playing in it," said Essam El Arian, a reformist leader, and one of dozens of Brotherhood members who have escaped from jail in recent days following the disappearance of the country's police force. "The Brotherhood does not take decisions on its own," he insisted. The Brotherhood's leadership continues to claim it does not aim to take control. "We are not for governing, we have no ambitions in this area," media coordinator Waleed Shalabi told the Guardian today. "What the Brotherhood really want to get out of this revolution is official recognition, the end of legal prohibition," said Anani. "That's its minimum demand, but beyond that, if a post-Mubarak Egypt offers genuine avenues of political participation and a fair electoral system, then the movement will be happy." [B]But amid all the discussion about the impact the Muslim Brotherhood is having on Egypt's uprising, another story of these remarkable few days might be about the impact the uprising is having on the Brotherhood. Anani believes the protests have shifted the balance of power within the organisation, boosting the influence of younger reformists and weakening the more conservative old guard.[/B] "Egypt is witnessing the creation of a new regime, and is reconfiguring all its internal political structures - obviously the Muslim Brotherhood will not be immune to that process," Anani said. "The revolution has brought us into much closer contact with other secular protest groups with whom we're working now on a regular basis. The elder leadership respects those new links, because they have to," confirmed Assas, the 35 year old Brotherhood member. Indeed many believe the triumphant surge of youth activism seen in Egypt this past week could have as significant effect on the Brotherhood as on Mubarak's beleaguered National Democratic Party. "Ongoing internal debate within the MB leadership oddly mirrors claims of an old-guard/new-guard clash within the ruling NDP," observed the US ambassador to Cairo, Margaret Scobey, in a secret cable in 2009. "The concern expressed by the current leadership of both the NDP and the MB about the impact of rapid or aggressive reform is a common thread. "All of Egypt is changing, and of course the Brotherhood is part of that," said Assas. "The youth is leading the way, and leaders are heeding our call."[/quote] [editline]2nd February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;27810053]More than that. If another regime was to come into place, they are uncertain that they would even be peaceful. Most of the world is confident that something good will come but Israel isn't. They also have more to lose as if the new regime has a more hostile approach to Israel, they could be in for another war, they lose a very helpful player in the Israel-Palestine talks, a lot of work goes down the drain. They cannot intervene directly and other than trying for diplomatic support, all it's up to is the hope that it won't turn nasty. And it's not "support", they are allies. Support makes it seem like Egypt is subservient to them, both countries benefit from the peace and diplomatic relations.[/QUOTE] No, it is support. When Mubarak bans the Cairo antiwar conference only because they criticized Mubarak’s lack of action against Israel you can be damn sure it’s full-support. If another regime did come to power, it is extremely likely they will be peaceful as I posted above, however, they will not share the same extreme support for Israel like Mubarak (aid blockade, walling Gazans in e.g). They’re not going to outright attack Israel or anything most people seem to be insinuating, but they will merely lose a major supporter and Israel fears this. There’s nothing wrong with this at all. A lot of people say this as if it’s a bad thing, Israel doesn’t even deserve support in the first place. The threat of something like an extremist group coming to power is a false pretext to keep Mubarak in power.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;27810817]The possibility of something like that coming to power was exaggerated and was a poorly made effort to keep Mubarak in power. Israel and possibly Mubarak are using them as a scapegoat to justify Mubarak’s continual dictatorship amongst the people. This should be clear. [URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/31/egypt-protesters-islamists-muslim-brotherhood[/URL][/QUOTE] So what, Israel actually desires Mubarak in power because he's a mean dictator? No, what IS clear is that Israel's main concern is the safety of itself and its people. If there could be a guaranteed transition to a moderate, stable government, Israel would support it (as suggested in my link), as there would be no threat to Israel. However, history has shown that "peoples revolutions" have a horrible habit of producing something worse. One example of this is the Russian Revolution; however, the more poignant in this circumstance is the Iranian revolution against the corrupt shah, which ultimately ended up with a brutal theocracy in its place. This is Israel's concern, and a valid one - that Egypt will become a nation not only led by a theocratic, anti-Israeli regime, but a regime with access to a military boosted by years of US arms supplies. This may come from the anti-Israeli Muslim Brotherhood (recently, they called for Egyptians to prepare for an attack on Israel) , or it may come from another source. Personally, it'll take more than one article to convince me the MB isn't a threat, but regardless of where from, the threat remains and is valid - thus, Israel has a right to be concerned, and wish to desire the status quo in lieu of reasonable alternatives. A source: [url]http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=206130[/url]

[QUOTE=Starpluck;27810817]No, it is support. When Mubarak bans the Cairo antiwar conference only because they criticized Mubarak’s lack of action against Israel you can be damn sure it’s full-support. If another regime did come to power, it is extremely likely they will be peaceful as I posted above, however, they will not share the same extreme support for Israel like Mubarak (aid blockade, walling Gazans in e.g). They’re not going to outright attack Israel or anything most people seem to be insinuating, but they will merely lose a major supporter and Israel fears this. There’s nothing wrong with this at all. The threat of something like an extremist group coming to power is a false pretext to keep Mubarak in power.[/QUOTE] Hmm, the "Popular Campaign for the Support of Resistance in Palestine and Iraq and Against Globalization", yes. Mubarak details or silences anyone who opposes his policies so I don't see why that conference would be any different. Not like it's even some kind of official conference as the highest officials present were minor political figures and ex-politicians. There was also the problem that it was a mostly anti-US conference and Mubarak's government was getting USAID money. Mubarak banned far worse so don't point it's only cause to Israel. From Funk's article [quote]"Israel believes that the global community must demand that any Egyptian government preserve the peace treaty with Israel," the statement added.[/quote] I don't think Israel particularly cares about getting a new government, as long as they are as open to peace as Mubarak. The Rafah crossing is not Israel forcing Egypt to fence them in, they do that on their own. Egypt is important in the Palestinian negotiations so they aren't keen to lose that either. The aid blockages are the same shit that Israel does and they do it so they don't get shot either. The fact that Egypt is not actively waging war on Israel like many extremists want makes them as much of a target as anyone else. On several occasions Hamas have killed [url=http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news/egypt-building-30-meter-towers-along-gaza-border]Egyption border guards[/url] so they have as much of an interest as keeping weapons out of the hands of Hamas as anyone else. You are always so aggressive and think that Israel is promoting who you consider a dictator. They are scared shitless. Who gives a fuck what they are actually like, the threat to them is real and they aren't going to take the chance of increasing the conflict just so people who have nothing to do with it can call them supporting a dictator.

I'd like to add that Egypt isn't playing Israel's lackey in holding up the Gaza Blockade. As well as Mubarak's strident anti-Islamist stance, it's a lot better for Egypt if Hamas is weakened than if they're strong - it isn't really "Israel v. the Middle East" anymore.

[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;27775616]I like this ElBaradei guy if he can turn Egypt into a fully working democracy, give him a Nobel peace price. This is starting to look good even in my eyes! I'm very pleased with the amazing videos that made it out of Egypt.[/QUOTE] Uh he already has one.