[QUOTE=DogGunn;21427671]Ummmmm, they just pulled out of a heap of settlements, and now they're moving back into the same areas.[/QUOTE]
Um, no they're not. Where did you get that from? They just expanded settlements, in the middle of an attempt of peace negotiations.
Dogunn, you're baised.
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21428402]Dogunn, you're baised.[/QUOTE]
What side are you on?
Dr. Pepper, regarding your comment regarding Gaza and the West bank, did you speak sarcastically? Because it sounded like it.
[QUOTE=Dr Pepper;21428446]What side are you on?[/QUOTE]
Palestine i suppose. The hamas has commited alot of wrongs, but the people of the gaza strip are being punished for the crimes of the hamas.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21428471]Dr. Pepper, regarding your comment regarding Gaza and the West bank, did you speak sarcastically? Because it sounded like it.[/QUOTE]
No, correct me if I was wrong or not.
And the innocent people of Israel are being punished for the alleged crimes of the IDF.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21428538]And the innocent people of Israel are being punished for the alleged crimes of the IDF.[/QUOTE]
not nearly as badly.
I can't say you're wrong, but you're also not right.
I'm not saying the Palestinians don't deserve Gaza or the West bank, but what I would like to make clear is that Israel doesn't want neither.
Israel pulled out of Gaza, and in the recent Gaza war it could have easily occupied it but didn't, this should be proof enough that Israel doesn't want it.
And regarding the West Bank, Israel holds it to secure relative peace, I'll quote myself from the last thread:
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21394725]So many idiotic stuff said here... Commenting on them all will take years.
I think I'll just explain why Israel just CANT pull out of the West Bank.
There are 3 possible outcomes of pulling out:
1: The West Bank will go into civil war, total anarchy, no order whatsoever, until a terrorist group takes control of the "country" and do some really fucked up shit.
2. The West Bank will be rather stable, but still most probably a terrorist group will take control of the country, probably through rigged elections or something, and will not stop acts of aggression against Israel (Just like Gaza didn't stop after Israel pulled out in 2005).
3. The West Bank will be stable and it's government will recognize Israel and will act for true peace, no more conflict. However this is the most unlikely outcome.
The people who are building settlements in the West Bank aren't state supported or motivated, but if the government will act against them it will be upset many people and will thus be unpopular, so our stupid PM's and government officials care more about their popularity than justice, and this allows these settlers to expand. It's bad I know, but once peace will be in the near future it'll be easier for the government to move them out of the West Bank just like it did 5 years ago from Gaza.[/QUOTE]
If anyone has any questions regarding this issue don't be afraid to post them.
[editline]08:33PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21428559]not nearly as badly.[/QUOTE]
As old_atlas said, it doesn't matter who suffers more, it's not a tragic story competition, it's who is right and who is wrong.
Sounds right to me
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21428402]Dogunn, you're baised.[/QUOTE]
I'm actually not. I can see the flaws in both sides. You on the otherhans decided to give your version of the history of Israel, complete with your bias and all.
But your comment hinted that the Palestinian's desire for independence is wrong. Actually it is quite right and justified, it's just that there are too many problems getting there that it's going to take some time, and if the Palestinians will stop using terror to threaten Israel, it will be a lot easier for us to give them independence.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21428717]I'm actually not. I can see the flaws in both sides. You on the otherhans decided to give your version of the history of Israel, complete with your bias and all.[/QUOTE]
I'm not baised, i established my opinion after looking at both sides of the argument.
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21428827]I'm not baised, i established my opinion after looking at both sides of the argument.[/QUOTE]
Ahh dude, I think you should go back and read your post again. The way it's written says otherwise.
[editline]03:53AM[/editline]
Your "history" generally isn't well established and is flat out wrong in some cases.
If you really want to take a stand that you are sure is the truth, I suggest looking at all the facts and arguments. This discussion started earlier than this thread, you can read it all here: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=924559[/url]
I hope you can do the right think and not just read a couple of posts and base your stand on that.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21428957]Ahh dude, I think you should go back and read your post again. The way it's written says otherwise.
[editline]03:53AM[/editline]
Your "history" generally isn't well established and is flat out wrong in some cases.[/QUOTE]
Err. A baize is not when you swing one way more than another in a debate, a baize is when you're personally effected by the topic in some way to make you swing one way more than a another.
Ughhhh.... Brain hurts....
The amount of stupidity and ignorance in this thread would make a bunch of backwoods hillbillies look like the friggin upper-class citizens!
Anyways, the easiest way to solve this dispute is by saying this - Israel has dropped CLUSTER BOMBS. Those fething things kill plenty more civilians, and are not even SUPPOSED to be used.
TL;DR
Stop arguing and just be brothers, and love eachotther.
Also, this is directed at nobody in particular.
[QUOTE=JSK-Fox;21429081]Ughhhh.... Brain hurts....
The amount of stupidity and ignorance in this thread would make a bunch of backwoods hillbillies look like the friggin upper-class citizens!
Anyways, the easiest way to solve this dispute is by saying this - Israel has dropped CLUSTER BOMBS. Those fething things kill plenty more civilians, and are not even SUPPOSED to be used.
TL;DR
Stop arguing and just be brothers, and love eachotther.
Also, this is directed at nobody in particular.[/QUOTE]
Any sources?
Just blow the country up after evacuating the old ladies and children.
maybe if we didn't give israel weapons they'd be forced to make strong, serious peace negotiations instead of just blowing them off
the only reason we don't is AIPAC
The 3rd article actually gives Israel's justification to the use of cluster bombs. It says that investigations to these claims found no evidence that the cluster bomb's use was against international law.
Unfortunately the IDF doesn't reveal a lot about it's operations, out of fear of this information reaching it's enemies and then used by them to exploit weaknesses.
I also replied earlier to someone saying Israel used illegal weapons during the Gaza war with the same explanation.
Yes, because Israel definitely doesn't have any munitions in reserve and they don't make their own weapons at all, how very clever.
[QUOTE=GunFox;21424105]The UK exports weapons?[/QUOTE]
i'm sorry gunfox but that's below the expectations i've had for you
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufacturers[/url]
Both sides have commited murder, plain and simple.
I just think that, if Israel must kill off hamas, which is justified, it should make a more active effort to avoid civilian casualties, because two wrongs don't make a right, and it's much easier to avoid civilian casualties with a properly formed military than a poorly formed militia.
The innocents of gaza are suffering because of the crimes of others.
[editline]06:54PM[/editline]
It doesn't matter if it's illigal or not. It matters if it's [b]WRONG[/b] or [b]RIGHT[/b]
[QUOTE=GunFox;21424105]The UK exports weapons? What does the UK even make that Israel would import weapon-wise?
EDIT: Oh looks like components used in the hardware they are getting from the US. Whooptee do. Now the contracts will go to another factory in another country and Israel will continue on totally unscathed while the UK economy suffers as a result. That...doesn't seem to help anyone.[/QUOTE]
The UK is the 4th largest exporter of arms on the planet :downs:
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21430069]Both sides have commited murder, plain and simple.
I just think that, if Israel must kill off hamas, which is justified, it should make a more active effort to avoid civilian casualties, because two wrongs don't make a right, and it's much easier to avoid civilian casualties with a properly formed military than a poorly formed militia.
The innocents of gaza are suffering because of the crimes of others.
[editline]06:54PM[/editline]
It doesn't matter if it's illigal or not. It matters if it's [b]WRONG[/b] or [b]RIGHT[/b][/QUOTE]
You make good arguments which I support, I think Israel could have done more to prevent casualties, but the fact is that Israel did quite a lot. Tell me of one other army in the world which tells it targets where and when it's about to bomb, asking them to flee so they won't die.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21428652]If anyone has any questions regarding this issue don't be afraid to post them.[/QUOTE]
Um, if Israel pulled out of the West Bank the two political parties in control of Gaza would take control, Hamas and Fatah. It would take sometime to stabilize the region, but a military occupation and destruction of Palestinian housing kind of hurts the Palestinian people. Also that shit about the settlers just proves that the Israeli government is incompetent.
That also doesn't excuse the embargoes that Israel has on Gaza which limit medical supplies, electricity, and water.
[editline]04:17PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21430069]Both sides have commited murder, plain and simple.
I just think that, if Israel must kill off hamas, which is justified, it should make a more active effort to avoid civilian casualties, because two wrongs don't make a right, and it's much easier to avoid civilian casualties with a properly formed military than a poorly formed militia.
The innocents of gaza are suffering because of the crimes of others.
[editline]06:54PM[/editline]
It doesn't matter if it's illigal or not. It matters if it's [B]WRONG[/B] or [B]RIGHT[/B][/QUOTE]
You talk about dismissing the fact that both sides committed murder yet you fail to mention the water, medicine, and electricity embargo Israel has on Gaza along with the occupation and settler expansion they've been doing in the West Bank.
Didn't Britain CREATE Israel?
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