• Don't supply weapons to Israel; Says Britain.
    210 replies, posted
They didn't, they actually opposed Israel's creation in the UN vote. [editline]11:33PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Billiam;21431772]Um, if Israel pulled out of the West Bank the two political parties in control of Gaza would take control, Hamas and Fatah. It would take sometime to stabilize the region, but a military occupation and destruction of Palestinian housing kind of hurts the Palestinian people. Also that shit about the settlers just proves that the Israeli government is incompetent.[/QUOTE] Yes, the government is sometimes incompetent, there are quite a lot of nations which don't support their government much. (or did in recent past, *cough* US *cough*.) The time it will take to stabilize and the risk of the West Bank becoming a terrorist-controlled state like Gaza is too much of a risk for Israel to take. The settlers enroaching on the West Bank aren't state-supported and once peace will be achieved Israel will pull them out just like it pulled out many families from Gaza. [QUOTE=Billiam;21431772] That also doesn't excuse the embargoes that Israel has on Gaza which limit medical supplies, electricity, and water.[/QUOTE] No, but the smuggling of weapons and ammunition into Gaza does.
[QUOTE=Billiam;21431772]Um, if Israel pulled out of the West Bank the two political parties in control of Gaza would take control, Hamas and Fatah. It would take sometime to stabilize the region, but a military occupation and destruction of Palestinian housing kind of hurts the Palestinian people. [/QUOTE] This is where you're very wrong. Hamas kills it's oponents - Fatah. They killed many members in order to come to power. Hamas is a horrible political organization and if they had full power over Gaza, it would become just another dictatorship where most people keep suffering.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21432015]They didn't, they actually opposed Israel's creation in the UN vote.[/QUOTE] What the Hell are you talking about? The British greatly supported the creation of a Jewish state the Middle East to promote their imperialism. [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917[/URL] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21432015]Yes, the government is sometimes incompetent, there are quite a lot of nations which don't support their government much. (or did in recent past, *cough* US *cough*.)[/QUOTE] So because other governments suck, Israel's government can suck? A lot of people voice their disapproval for a lot of countries too. [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21432015]The time it will take to stabilize and the risk of the West Bank becoming a terrorist-controlled state like Gaza is too much of a risk for Israel to take.[/QUOTE] It's pretty damn stupid to call Hamas a terrorist organization, sure they employ terrorist tactics, but they were elected democratically through election. The terrorist tactics are also only employed because they're being oppressed. Hamas and Fatah are both platforms for the people of Palestine, now I don't endorse their means, but if you give them room to govern maybe we can finally have that peace? [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21432015]The settlers enroaching on the West Bank aren't state-supported and once peace will be achieved Israel will pull them out just like it pulled out many families from Gaza.[/QUOTE] Hey. Maybe the state should let everyone know that they don't support them by not signing treaties for further expansionism during peace talks. [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21432015]No, but the smuggling of weapons and ammunition into Gaza does.[/QUOTE] So instead of either A) supplying the people of Gaza with supplies themselves or B) negotiating with Hamas a method where they can receive supplies from an outside source, they C) instate an embargo on all goods which doesn't even stop the trade of weaponry? [editline]04:59PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Crhem van der B;21432432]This is where you're very wrong. Hamas kills it's oponents - Fatah. They killed many members in order to come to power. Hamas is a horrible political organization and if they had full power over Gaza, it would become just another dictatorship where most people keep suffering.[/QUOTE] Uh, the Hamas-Fatah killings were a result of political tension. Both parties hated the others philosophies, this isn't odd in an underdeveloped nation. The important thing is they are trying to centralize a government. The Al-Qassam brigades need to be disbanded however.
Your source is regarding 1917, a lot before the UN was created. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_181#The_vote[/url] Here you can see the UK abstained, it did so because it didn't want to piss off Israel in an obvious manner. After the vote the British withdrew their troops very fast, so Israel will be unprotected. They hoped the Arabs could weaken Israel, who will then ask them for help. I didn't say it's because other governments suck, what I meant was no country was perfect, we all had a president or prime minister most of the country didn't actually like, does it mean the whole government is evil? [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#International_Designation_of_Hamas[/url] United States: Lists Hamas as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization" Canada: Describes Hamas as a "a radical Sunni Muslim terrorist organization." European Union: Lists Hamas among the entities against which it applies restrictions in order to combat terrorism. Also just because a party wins the elections fairly doesn't mean they are democratic and peace-loving. The Nazis got into power by a democratic vote, after all. The government also helped people in Gaza before pulling out of it, we did pull out in the end. Israel is supplying Gaza with medical supplies and electricity: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008-2009_Gaza_Strip_aid[/url] - "Injured Palestinian civilians have been taken to Israel medical facilities for care,[18] including Ashkelon's Barzilai Hospital - which was under Hamas rocket fire during the war - and Schneider Children's Hospital.[32][33] Magen David Adom, the Israeli version of the Red Cross, has been working extensively on the Israeli-Gaza border to treat the injured, with 600 ambulances available around the clock.[34][35][36][37] Physicians for Human Rights-Israel donated about $1 million for medical equipment and medicine to Gaza residents" [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Economy[/url] - "Israel supplies the Gaza Strip with electricity."
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21433173]Your source is regarding 1917, a lot before the UN was created. [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_181#The_vote[/URL] Here you can see the UK abstained, it did so because it didn't want to piss off Israel in an obvious manner. After the vote the British withdrew their troops very fast, so Israel will be unprotected. They hoped the Arabs could weaken Israel, who will then ask them for help.[/QUOTE] That still reiterates my point that Israel was created for British interests. [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21433173]I didn't say it's because other governments suck, what I meant was no country was perfect, we all had a president or prime minister most of the country didn't actually like, does it mean the whole government is evil?[/QUOTE] No, but the fact that this has been going on for decades is borderline evil. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#International_Designation_of_Hamas"][QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21433173]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#International_Designation_of_Hamas[/URL] United States: Lists Hamas as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization" Canada: Describes Hamas as a "a radical Sunni Muslim terrorist organization." European Union: Lists Hamas among the entities against which it applies restrictions in order to combat terrorism.[/QUOTE] Okay, so the United States one of Israel's closest allies declares Hamas a terrorist organization and that's suppose to be an unbiased decision? Then Canada and the EU the US's butt-buddies declare Hamas a terrorist organization and that's suppose to be an unbiased decision? The UK and Australians both recognize Al-Qassem Brigades' as the terrorists, which is true since they're the branch carrying out the attacks. [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21433173]Also just because a party wins the elections fairly doesn't mean they are democratic and peace-loving. The Nazis got into power by a democratic vote, after all.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum[/url] Has Hamas oppressed the people under it? No, not really, but disagreeing political philosophies have led to the clashes. Hamas as a whole is a valid political party, the militant groups under it are not. Hamas is a reflection of how the Palestinians feel about the Israel, they're living under oppression so naturally they're going to vote into the aggressive party. The fact that they severed ties even further after 2006 just adds to the power. [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21433173]The government also helped people in Gaza before pulling out of it, we did pull out in the end. Israel is supplying Gaza with medical supplies and electricity: [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008-2009_Gaza_Strip_aid[/URL] - "Injured Palestinian civilians have been taken to Israel medical facilities for care,[18] including Ashkelon's Barzilai Hospital - which was under Hamas rocket fire during the war - and Schneider Children's Hospital.[32][33] Magen David Adom, the Israeli version of the Red Cross, has been working extensively on the Israeli-Gaza border to treat the injured, with 600 ambulances available around the clock.[34][35][36][37] Physicians for Human Rights-Israel donated about $1 million for medical equipment and medicine to Gaza residents" [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Economy[/URL] - "Israel supplies the Gaza Strip with electricity."[/QUOTE] Aid =/= Supply Palestine doesn't need aid now, they need supply which Israel has cut off, Magen David Adom is just another HRO trying to help, but they can't. It's convenient that you left out the parts in your article where Israel hinders the economic development of Gaza. The CIA world fact book citation also states that Israel is only supplying Gaza 100,000 kWH which cannot sustain a population of 1.5 million.
[QUOTE=starpluck;21426361]Only reason why Hamas is considered terrorist is because they don't have a full proper army. Zionists terrorists were no longer called terrorists once they developed an army. Though Israel still does sponsor terrorism. [URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1524552/Israel-celebrates-Irgun-hotel-bombers.html[/URL][/QUOTE] That makes them a Paramilitary force nor a terrorist force. People really need to learn their terminology.
Paramilitaries can also be terrorists. The mujahideen is an example.
doesnt britain hate israel ?
[QUOTE=Jessesmith1;21436349]doesnt britain hate israel ?[/QUOTE] No.
"British Arms" So we can make guns and sell them to other countries, but not own them?
Good, the less equipment available for Israelis to murder innocent people and aggressively expand, the better.
I've started a thread about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, please move all discussion there: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=21441320#post21441320[/url]
[QUOTE=thisispain;21429840]i'm sorry gunfox but that's below the expectations i've had for you [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufacturers[/url][/QUOTE] I'm looking and most of the UK arms manufacturers on that list are defunct, produce strictly civilian armaments, or produce weapons which aren't actually used by virtually anyone. Seriously. Modern British hardware which is exported and used in large numbers. Name some. Because I can't. Obviously the UK is exporting weapon parts, otherwise they wouldn't have the numbers seen, but what actual complete military hardware are they exporting? If anything, I would expect the Challenger 2 would be exported in an export version. But only one country has bought any. (Oman)
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21430640]You make good arguments which I support, I think Israel could have done more to prevent casualties, but the fact is that Israel did quite a lot. Tell me of one other army in the world which tells it targets where and when it's about to bomb, asking them to flee so they won't die.[/QUOTE] What, so the israeli government can shit all over their homes and buisnesses? Provide a source, as you say.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21441471]I've started a thread about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, please move all discussion there: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=21441320#post21441320[/url][/QUOTE] cool beans man didn't know you were a mod
I asked TH89 before opening the thread and he told me to go ahead, will provide source for Keesh in a sec.
I'd rather sell weapons to Israel than Palestine.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Israel[/url] "The army also dropped leaflets with similar messages and contact info to report about the whereabouts of militant leaders and weapons caches. [332] The leaflets also noted that "the Israeli army will respond if the rocket fire continues."[330] In war zones, leaflets warned local residents that they had to flee. It also warned residents that their homes would be targeted if they were located in an area of possible target.[333] Dr. Yaniv Levitan of the University of Haifa said that the aim of the flyers was not to demoralize the civil population, but to implant recognition in hearts and minds that Hamas has failed, that there is an option of choosing another path." "There was a mistrust of phone calls warning messages to people that they have "just minutes to evacuate before they bomb the house." According to a human rights lawyer at the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), despite the hundreds of phone calls to families warning their house is about to be blown up, only 37 were destroyed, presumably as of the January 3 date." I've already posted this in this thread BTW, and the last one too, I'm guessing you didn't read through it even though I asked you, oh well.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21441668]I asked TH89 before opening the thread and he told me to go ahead, will provide source for Keesh in a sec.[/QUOTE] My bad.
-snip-
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21441694][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Israel[/url] "The army also dropped leaflets with similar messages and contact info to report about the whereabouts of militant leaders and weapons caches. [332] The leaflets also noted that "the Israeli army will respond if the rocket fire continues."[330] In war zones, leaflets warned local residents that they had to flee. It also warned residents that their homes would be targeted if they were located in an area of possible target.[333] Dr. Yaniv Levitan of the University of Haifa said that the aim of the flyers was not to demoralize the civil population, but to implant recognition in hearts and minds that Hamas has failed, that there is an option of choosing another path." "There was a mistrust of phone calls warning messages to people that they have "just minutes to evacuate before they bomb the house." According to a human rights lawyer at the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), despite the hundreds of phone calls to families warning their house is about to be blown up, only 37 were destroyed, presumably as of the January 3 date." I've already posted this in this thread BTW, and the last one too, I'm guessing you didn't read through it even though I asked you, oh well.[/QUOTE] Just because they were warned doesn't make it fair dude. You still haven't answered if it's fair that Israel blows their homes and businesses to shit.
[QUOTE=Chekko;21441673]I'd rather sell weapons to Israel than Palestine.[/QUOTE] cool false dichotomy bro
Because they launched rockets at Israeli civilians? Israel didn't destroy homes just because it wanted to, it destroyed them because they were rocket launching sites.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21441769]Because they launched rockets at Israeli civilians? Israel didn't destroy homes just because it wanted to, it destroyed them because they were rocket launching sites.[/QUOTE] I will say this one last time. Just because Israel lost civilians from hamas, it does not justify that Gaza loose civilians from Israel. It's hypocracy. A phone call or a leaflet a few minutes before the bomb drops doesn't cut it. Why not send in a team of soldiers to destroy or capture the rockets with precision.
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21441870]I will say this one last time. Just because Israel lost civilians from hamas, it does not justify that Gaza loose civilians from Israel. It's hypocracy. A phone call or a leaflet a few minutes before the bomb drops doesn't cut it. Why not send in a team of soldiers to destroy or capture the rockets with precision.[/QUOTE] because then they wouldn't be able to shell civilians with white phosphorous
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21441909]because then they wouldn't be able to shell civilians with white phosphorous[/QUOTE] And other shells far too powerful for the job required.
Israel only exercised it's right of self-defense, none is arguing that destroying rocket launching sites is unjustified even at the cost of these buildings (who the Hamas originally took from civilians, these buildings were in complete control of the Hamas when they were destroyed). Please move all discussion to the Israel - Palestine thread, it's getting really annoying checking two threads when they're both on the same issue.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21441945]Israel only exercised it's right of self-defense, none is arguing that destroying rocket launching sites is unjustified even at the cost of these buildings (who the Hamas originally took from civilians, these buildings were in complete control of the Hamas when they were destroyed). Please move all discussion to the Israel - Palestine thread, it's getting really annoying checking two threads when they're both on the same issue.[/QUOTE] I could make my roof into a rocket launching site. You really have no clue how easy it is to launch a Qassam, do you? These things aren't exactly high-tech. [img]http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/05/12/qassam_7.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21441945]Israel only exercised it's right of self-defense, none is arguing that destroying rocket launching sites is unjustified even at the cost of these buildings (who the Hamas originally took from civilians, these buildings were in complete control of the Hamas when they were destroyed). Please move all discussion to the Israel - Palestine thread, it's getting really annoying checking two threads when they're both on the same issue.[/QUOTE] Then why were 1,400 civilians killed? They have every right to defend themselves, but no right to take a civilian life. They did not use enough precision, and as a result civilian lives were lost.
Here's one of those "rocket launching sites" you mentioned. [img]http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/palestine/qassam-launch.jpg[/img]
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.