• Don't supply weapons to Israel; Says Britain.
    210 replies, posted
They still have the potential to kill, and until they're gone, Israel will bomb any site which appears to have rocket launching sites on it. It's all necessary for the defence of the land.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21442392]They still have the potential to kill, and until they're gone, Israel will bomb any site which appears to have rocket launching sites on it. It's all necessary for the defence of the land.[/QUOTE] You don't seem to understand. You could launch rockets from a building, be gone in 5 minutes, and never return. It's not as if they're using stationary sites like in WW2.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21442406]You don't seem to understand. You could launch rockets from a building, be gone in 5 minutes, and never return. It's not as if they're using stationary sites like in WW2.[/QUOTE] I have full understanding. Then Israel will destroy those buildings that they are fired from. With UAVs and other equiptment, Israel can get live intel on where these rocket sites are. And when they're spotted, they're normally engaged very quickly.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21442420]I have full understanding. Then Israel will destroy those buildings that they are fired from. With UAVs and other equiptment, Israel can get live intel on where these rocket sites are. And when they're spotted, they're normally engaged very quickly.[/QUOTE] You don't seem to understand. The chances that they're actually killing the militants launching the rockets are pretty slim. Oh, and do you know how many Israelis died from rocket attacks during the Gaza War of 08-09? 3. From 2001-2010, 27 Israelis died in rocket attacks. How does that justify the deaths of thousands of Palestinian civilians?
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21442447]You don't seem to understand. The chances that they're actually killing the militants launching the rockets are pretty slim.[/quote] I do understand - stop stating what is wrong. You've got no evidence to support your claim. Infact, it's easy to point out the opposite. The IDF releases nose cams from UAVs and Apaches showing the destruction of enemies and their weapons. [QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21442447]Oh, and do you know how many Israelis died from rocket attacks during the Gaza War of 08-09? 3.[/QUOTE] While in comparison to the amount of civilian deaths in the Gaza, that's slim, but it's not an excuse for letting any more of their people die.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21442471]I do understand - stop stating what is wrong. You've got no evidence to support your claim. Infact, it's easy to point out the opposite. The IDF releases nose cams from UAVs and Apaches showing the destruction of enemies and their weapons. While in comparison to the amount of civilian deaths in the Gaza, that's slim, but it's not an excuse for letting any more of their people die.[/QUOTE] better yet stop provoking hamas
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21442496]better yet stop provoking hamas[/QUOTE] Or better yet, Hamas should stop provoking the more powerful Israeli Government. It's pretty much a catch-22.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21442541]Or better yet, Hamas should stop provoking the more powerful Israeli Government. It's pretty much a catch-22.[/QUOTE] hay everybody let's make more settlements in the west bank that surely won't anger the palestinian militants
11
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21442563]11[/QUOTE] We're talking about an area slightly bigger than Delaware. 11 new settlements is a lot.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21442557]hay everybody let's make more settlements in the west bank that surely won't anger the palestinian militants[/QUOTE] What the hell happened to my post? haha I said befoer, Hamas don't control the West Bank. Get it right.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21442599]What the hell happened to my post? haha I said befoer, Hamas don't control the West Bank. Get it right.[/QUOTE] i like how i said hamas
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21442614]i like how i said hamas[/QUOTE] Hamas is who we're talking about...
Brb sending weapons to Israel
[QUOTE=GunFox;21424193]...and they make? I'm actually serious. I'm running through a list of all the British hardware I know, and aside from some aircraft that might be produced in the UK, I'm coming up blank.[/QUOTE] BAe ring any bells?
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21441985]Then why were 1,400 civilians killed? They have every right to defend themselves, but no right to take a civilian life. They did not use enough precision, and as a result civilian lives were lost.[/QUOTE] Only around 300 civilians were killed during the Gaza war, get your facts right.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21443486]Only around 300 civilians were killed during the Gaza war, get your facts right.[/QUOTE] That's completely bullshit and you know it. [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8245433.stm[/url] [url]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46348000/gif/_46348507_gaza_casualties466.gif[/url]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21441471]I've started a thread about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, please move all discussion there: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=21441320#post21441320[/url][/QUOTE] No. This is a news thread for individual news stories. [editline]11:02AM[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;21441575]I'm looking and most of the UK arms manufacturers on that list are defunct, produce strictly civilian armaments, or produce weapons which aren't actually used by virtually anyone. Seriously. Modern British hardware which is exported and used in large numbers. Name some. Because I can't. Obviously the UK is exporting weapon parts, otherwise they wouldn't have the numbers seen, but what actual complete military hardware are they exporting? If anything, I would expect the Challenger 2 would be exported in an export version. But only one country has bought any. (Oman)[/QUOTE] Are you trolling or just collecting boxes? A 5 second google. [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3741979.stm[/url] [b]BRITAIN'S ARMS INDUSTRY[/b] Second biggest arms exporter Combined turnover of £17bn a year Employs 345,000 in the UK [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3084718.stm[/url] [b]TOP MILITARY EXPORTERS (2001)[/b] US - $9.7bn UK - $4bn Russia - $3.6bn France - $1bn China - $500m Israel - $300m [b]UK DEFENCE DELIVERIES (2001)[/b] Air sector - £3.25bn Land - £341m Sea - £50m Not specified - £524m TOTAL ORDERS - £4.16bn [img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39315000/gif/_39315124_military_sales3_416gra.gif[/img]
The news part of the discussion like GunFox's questions should remain here, but I don't see how the Gaza war or past history is more related to this subject than the Israel - Palestine thread. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war#Casualties[/url] It depends on which numbers are you looking at, Israel claim that Gaza's armed police forces are not civilians but combatants, bringing the number of civilian casualties to 295. The human rights NGO claims they are civilians and thus the number is 926. So if you look through Israel's side I'm absolutely correct, while neither side supports your claim of 1,400 dead civilians.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21443684]The news part of the discussion like GunFox's questions should remain here, but I don't see how the Gaza war or past history is more related to this subject than the Israel - Palestine thread. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war#Casualties[/url] It depends on which numbers are you looking at, Israel claim that Gaza's armed police forces are not civilians but combatants, bringing the number of civilian casualties to 295. The human rights NGO claims they are civilians and thus the number is 926. So if you look through Israel's side I'm absolutely correct, while neither side supports your claim of 1,400 dead civilians.[/QUOTE] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7811386.stm[/url] 'Who is a Civilian?'
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21443684]The news part of the discussion like GunFox's questions should remain here, but I don't see how the Gaza war or past history is more related to this subject than the Israel - Palestine thread. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war#Casualties[/url] It depends on which numbers are you looking at, Israel claim that Gaza's armed police forces are not civilians but combatants, bringing the number of civilian casualties to 295. The human rights NGO claims they are civilians and thus the number is 926. So if you look through Israel's side I'm absolutely correct, while neither side supports your claim of 1,400 dead civilians.[/QUOTE] I was wrong, but so are you. Israel is absolutely bullshit in saying that the police force were combatants, What makes them combatants.
"To claim that all of those offices are legitimate targets, just because they are affiliated with Hamas, is legally flawed and extremely problematic" - B’Tselem director Jessica Montel "Once you extend the definition of combatant in the way that IDF is apparently doing, you begin to associate individuals who are only indirectly or peripherally involved… it becomes an open-ended definition, which undermines the very object and purpose of the rules that are intended to be applied." Indeed, Hamas itself has been quoted as saying the fact that most Israelis serve in the military justifies attacks on civilian areas.
Israels side is wrong.
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;21443716]I was wrong, but so are you. Israel is absolutely bullshit in saying that the police force were combatants, What makes them combatants.[/QUOTE] Don't make stupid asides. It does nothing for either arugment and is just annoying. The whole are the Gaza Police combanants or not are is a completly different topic, but anyway. From the BBC article: "Analysts say Hamas policemen are responsible for quashing dissent and rooting out spies" "they can only be legally attacked when actually participating in military activities." This in essence makes them enemies of Israel.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21443804]Don't make stupid asides. It does nothing for either arugment and is just annoying. The whole are the Gaza Police combanants or not are is a completly different topic, but anyway. From the BBC article: "Analysts say Hamas policemen are responsible for quashing dissent and rooting out spies" "they can only be legally attacked when actually participating in military activities." This in essence makes them enemies of Israel.[/QUOTE] Because they aren't allowed to root out spies and shit like any countries police force does.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21443804]Don't make stupid asides. It does nothing for either arugment and is just annoying. The whole are the Gaza Police combanants or not are is a completly different topic, but anyway. From the BBC article: "Analysts say Hamas policemen are responsible for quashing dissent and rooting out spies" "they can only be legally attacked when actually participating in military activities." This in essence makes them enemies of Israel.[/QUOTE] I guess you forgot the bit in the article when Israel bombs a parade of trainees. Killing 40. They never participated in military activities. You missed the point of the article. [b]Also[/b] I just checked your quotes. Nice work in cutting them up into new meanings. Yours was suppose to say "However, campaign group Human Rights Watch (HRW) argues that even if police members do double as Hamas fighters, they can only be legally attacked when actually participating in military activities." Which goes against you're entire argument.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;21443830]I guess you forgot the bit in the article when Israel bombs a parade of trainees. Killing 40. They never participated in military activities. You missed the point of the article.[/quote] I didn't miss it, just chose not to mention it. The trainees should not have been targeted in my opinion. [QUOTE=NoDachi;21443830]I just checked your quotes. Nice work in cutting them up into new meanings. Yours was suppose to say "However, campaign group Human Rights Watch (HRW) argues that even if police members do double as Hamas fighters, they can only be legally attacked when actually participating in military activities." Which goes against you're entire argument.[/QUOTE] I made no attempt to give it new meaning. The removal (or ridding, whatever that means) of spies is military activity. Not sure how it goes against my entire argument. This is the problem with IvP (Israel vs Palestine) debate, it goes around in circles.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;21424756]ITT: More Israel bandwagon-bashing and Israel-trolling. Anyway, not sure why we're not letting them have weapons of ours.[/QUOTE] Did you even read the thread?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;21443883]I made no attempt to give it new meaning. The removal (or ridding, whatever that means) of spies is military activity. Not sure how it goes against my entire argument. This is the problem with IvP (Israel vs Palestine) debate, it goes around in circles.[/QUOTE] But the point being made in those quotes is that police and traffic cops [b]are not military targets[/b]. You can't simply use them for any other purpose than that. PS. Spies are charged as criminals in most societies, even ours. Not military targets.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;21443920]But the point being made in those quotes is that police and traffic cops [b]are not military targets[/b].[/QUOTE] No, that's not the point. One was a general quote from the article explaining the job of Gaza Police, and the other was a quote from a Human Rights Agency explaining when the IDF should engage according to International Law. [QUOTE=NoDachi;21443920]You can't simply use them for any other purpose than that. PS. Spies are charged as criminals in most societies, even ours. Not military targets.[/QUOTE] Do you think spies would even have a criminal trial, if that is what Hamas has setup for spies, if they were caught? The most likely scenario would be that they're shot. In most societies, yes you're right, you'd be tried as a criminal, not under military law, but I don't believe that criminal law would be followed in the case of a spy caught in Gaza, making it a military act.
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