• The dark side of Organ Donors
    107 replies, posted
[QUOTE=hexpunK;35110538]A fully functional human body with no conciousness if pretty bloody useless though. Especially if that person is brain-dead, so why not harvest the organs and help someone else? Just because you can't consent to how they treat the harvesting process doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Oh and plants are pretty aware, they move to maximise sunlight, react to physical changes, etc. A brain-dead body doesn't do anything.[/QUOTE] Dude, it was said at least 5 times in the article that brain-dead cadavers react.
Don't really care what happens to my dead body. They can donate it to cannibal necro-rapists for all I care, it'll be the least of my problems.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35110831]Speaking as someone who finds the concept of brain death and what causes it fascinating and has studied it(though I don't pretend to have done so extensively,) my opinion is that there should be more extensive tests to consider whether or not brain death means that a human is still capable of feeling what's happening to him or her. Logically, though, there is more evidence that they can than there is that they cannot. In any case, seeing as we're never going to know for sure because Brain Death is usually irrevocable, I'd rather keep my organs anyways. The point another poster made about doctors being more willing to let someone die to get their organs is also another reason I didn't sign up to be an organ donor.[/QUOTE] What worries me is that they've just gone "EEG isn't worth it, we'll just poke their eyes and say they are dead."
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35110865]So are you seriously saying you'd rather feel doctors cut you open and extract your organs - without anesthetic - before dying instead of living in a mind prison? At any rate, doctors should at least let the body actually die before taking the organs out. In all honesty, this is only a way for doctors to get organs at peak freshness, and it really pisses me off to think about it.[/QUOTE]Aren't you required to put the person to sleep before operation? I mean they can't be this stupid, right?
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;35110902]Aren't you required to put the person to sleep before operation? I mean they can't be this stupid, right?[/QUOTE] Couldn't this ruin the organs though?
My plan is to live forever. Barring that, I'll take being revived some time in the future as an acceptable substitute. So I'm going to keep my organs.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;35110902]Aren't you required to put the person to sleep before operation? I mean they can't be this stupid, right?[/QUOTE] No, they aren't required to at all. As it says in the article, BHCs have no legal rights; the doctors could do pretty much anything they want to you, because basically you're treated as an animal once you're braindead. I think it's pretty fucking presumptuous to do that, though, considering we don't actually know jack shit about what brain death means besides "lol it meenz ur brian iz not rite an ur nott breethign on ur ownz!!1" [editline]12th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=toaster468;35110933]Couldn't this ruin the organs though?[/QUOTE] No. It just means the organs won't be perfectly fresh, and the doctors cannot accept that. They'd rather take the chance that the donor is alive and in agony. [editline]12th March 2012[/editline] Speaking as someone who wants to go to medical school, too. Sometimes, the acts of the field I hope to go into disgust me.
[QUOTE=toaster468;35110886]Dude, it was said at least 5 times in the article that brain-dead cadavers react.[/QUOTE] Well it would, the nervous system is still there and will still be functional. That doesn't mean that the person is actually there and knows it's happening to them. There's a difference between your body being paralysed and you being brain-dead, the big one being, you are still capable of measurable concious thought when paralysed, and not when you're brain-dead.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;35110875]Are you some rich millionaire? Because if not I doubt that's going to happen. Rest in space.[/QUOTE] Someday :v:
[QUOTE=hexpunK;35111011]Well it would, the nervous system is still there and will still be functional. That doesn't mean that the person is actually there and knows it's happening to them. There's a difference between your body being paralysed and you being brain-dead, the big one being, you are still capable of measurable concious thought when paralysed, and not when you're brain-dead.[/QUOTE] The nervous system is still there. It's difficult to explain what defines consciousness, but even if you aren't conscious, you are still going to feel it when they cut your body open and pull out your fucking heart, don't you think? Here. Let me simplify it for you all. There are two ways that it could go. First is that you are simply not concious at all. If this is the case, you will still feel it if they cut you open. If not, you don't know you're there, and you'll eventually die without even knowing you've spent any amount of time braindead, so it doesn't matter either way. Second is that you're fully aware, but you can't move or do anything. If this is the case, you'll feel it - and get to watch - when they cut you open and remove your organs without even anesthetizing you. Either way, you're screwed if you become braindead and are an organ donor.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35111043]The nervous system is still there. It's difficult to explain what defines consciousness, but even if you aren't conscious, you are still going to feel it when they cut your body open and pull out your fucking heart, don't you think?[/QUOTE] Going by what I understand, and as far as I can remember being taught, probably not seeing as we aren't aware of any kind of nervous system input. The reactions are just normal for a live body, that doesn't mean the person is actually feeling it. Though obviously we don't know fully because medical science has still only got so far in this field. Either way, if it's clear somebody isn't going to recover, and the body is still alive, it's worth using their organs, just ensure that the mind and body is killed entirely before operating in a decent manner.
[QUOTE=Desuh;35110459]I am paranoid about this. I am afraid that if I become a organ donor that I will more likely let to die so they can get my organs.[/QUOTE] If it makes you feel better, it's totally illegal for them to do that, and the lawsuits can go so high that they'd never dare to, at least in the EU, and presumably for all other 1st world countries. Organ donors are treated identically to non-donors. I'm registered as an organ donor, if I'm going to be a brain in a shell, I'd sooner be dead, and I'd sooner give sight to 2 people (cornea transplants) and life to however many others (liver, heart, kidney e.t.c, each can potentially save a life) that are possible.
[QUOTE=Terminutter;35111149]If it makes you feel better, it's totally illegal for them to do that, and the lawsuits can go so high that they'd never dare to, at least in the EU, and presumably for all other 1st world countries. Organ donors are treated identically to non-donors. I'm registered as an organ donor, if I'm going to be a brain in a shell, I'd sooner be dead, and I'd sooner give sight to 2 people (cornea transplants) and life to however many others (liver, heart, kidney e.t.c, each can potentially save a life) that are possible.[/QUOTE] Question How are you going to prove that they're more likely to let you die in court?
I remember once I went to hospital for a bad back and they declared me brain dead to try and take my organs.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35111174]Question How are you going to prove that they're more likely to let you die in court?[/QUOTE] Simple, They splash water in their ears and poke them in the eye with a stick until they confess.
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35111174]Question How are you going to prove that they're more likely to let you die in court?[/QUOTE] Your family will demand information and there is an inquiry as to how you died anyway. If it's then revealed that medication was held back or treatment was denied, there'd be hell to pay.
[QUOTE=Profanwolf;35110600]This reminds me of that monty python scene where they butcher someones husband to take his organs :v:[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;aclS1pGHp8o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclS1pGHp8o[/video]
[QUOTE=areolop;35110468]What organ is #5&6[/QUOTE] My extensive internet research points to something ominously called "people bacon."
Are there any Nazis living on the dark side of the Organ Donors?
In Canada, I remember that if you're under 18 and you die and had a donor card on you, your parents can decide after you pass whether or not your organs should be donated despite your wishes. I don't know if that's changed or not.
Isn't there a Stephen King novel about this?
Hahaha this thread is hilarious. People here don't know shit
[QUOTE=The Baconator;35110351]If you are brain dead you are dead. Your consciousness is inside your brain.[/QUOTE] Did you even read the article? He argues that some legally declared "brain dead" patients still show signs of activity in the cortex (the thinking part of the brain). And this; [QUOTE]What if there is sound evidence that you are alive after being declared brain dead? In a 1999 article in the peer-reviewed journal Anesthesiology, Gail A. Van Norman, a professor of anesthesiology at the University of Washington, reported a case in which a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma began breathing spontaneously after being declared brain dead. The physicians said that, because there was no chance of recovery, he could still be considered dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move, and then react to the scalpel with hypertension.[/QUOTE]
This isn't news, this is a blog post. If anything this belongs in General Discussion or Mass Debate.
I have to write a research paper about if donors family should receive money, and what the criteria should be to begin harvesting. So bookmarked. Just because you're out cold, and none responsive, and have a low EEG, or no EEG activity, doesn't necessarily mean you're not there. There are cases where patients have gone from little to no EEG activity, to recovering without assistance from a ventilator in a rapid time (as rapid you can recover from such an event that would cause no EEG activity, IE trauma, massive stroke etc etc). The truth is, we have no real understanding of what being dead is like; just because you have lost the means to physically respond to various types of stimuli, doesn't mean you're gone. I think they should make routine EEG diagnostics a requirement for brain dead, if not already, and incorporate various other tests, besides just the splash in the eyes, and shutting off the vent for a brief amount of time.
This thread reminds me that one day I am going to die. :C
[QUOTE=Desuh;35110459]I am paranoid about this. I am afraid that if I become a organ donor that I will more likely let to die so they can get my organs.[/QUOTE] [i]"Everybody lookin' at me, waitin' for me to die and take mah orgins away... They ain't takin' these! No sir!..."[/i] Why does that actually look like it could happen?... :ohdear:
[QUOTE=rodent-man;35110662] I'd imagine most doctors wouldn't bother trying to save somebody with something like a 5% survival chance[/QUOTE] So by your logic, doctors, nurses and EMTs shouldn't try to save cardiac arrest victims? because their survival rate is 5% as well. You'd be surprised how far doctors will go to try to save people who have no real chance, ranging from doing CPR for 1-2 hours, to other drastic measures, just because the survivability % is low, shouldn't mean you shouldn't give it all you got. Please don't go into medicine rodent, you be horrible at it. [editline]12th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=hexpunK;35110538] Oh and plants are pretty aware, they move to maximise sunlight, react to physical changes, etc. A brain-dead body doesn't do anything.[/QUOTE] I could of sworn that in the OP it mentioned that most brain-dead patients react to the physical stimuli of removing organs from the body? wait, ahahah it did "But BHCs—who don't receive anesthetics during an organ harvest operation—react to the scalpel like inadequately anesthetized live patients, exhibiting high blood pressure and sometimes soaring heart rates. " If there is a reaction to a stimuli, as a plant reacts to sunlight, by your logic, then a brain dead patient can still be considered alive, as they react to some degree of stimuli. Personally, i am a organ donor, and i would only like my organs to be harvested if I am biologically dead, as in my blood gas levels have a VERY low PH, very high lactic acid level (the point where life can no longer be supported on a cellular level), and that my heart is at a irreversible asystole (flat line).
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35110973]Speaking as someone who wants to go to medical school, too. Sometimes, the acts of the field I hope to go into disgust me.[/QUOTE]You want to be a medical student and you said LSD is [url=http://facepunch.com/threads/1169577?p=35098307&viewfull=1#post35098307]addicting and dangerous[/url]?
Also i would take some parts of this article with a grain of salt, from personal experience during my internship with the local hospital, i got into a few conversations on this issue with a RT (respiratory therapist; they play a major role in keeping brain-dead patients going, hence the respiratory part) and they told me it is a head-ache at times because the amount of proof the healthcare team has to get to get the family's "go" on pulling the plug. We were talking about brain-dead infants though, so that's a little different as people are much more willing to fight to keep a baby going compared to a 30 year old, also they are not organ donors or dont have the right to be due to age, so the whole consent responsibility being removed from the family isn't really found in this situation. But it goes to show it isn't always clear cut as the article suggests, there's more to it, but in some cases there should of been more done. I've also been in the room with what you could call a "brain-dead" patient, or well one that is on their way to being there if they don't stop deteriorating, and trust me the attitude isn't "oh this fucker is going to die, lets get that ice ready to splashy splashy, and get surgery ready", it's not as cynical as the article makes it out to be.
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