[QUOTE=ewitwins;35112665]Isn't there a Stephen King novel about this?[/QUOTE]
Sort of, its a short story about a man that gets bitten by a snake and enters a coma like state where he is pronounced dead but he is awake during his autopsy and they find out he is alive because he gets a hard on when the nurse touches his dick.
[QUOTE=Bomimo;35110469]Plants are living. They have no consciousness. Therefore a fully functional body with brain death is alive. Please go away.[/QUOTE]
I stick plants in my butt and they dont fight back, thus non sentient.
In a case like this i would rather be an organ donor because in the possiblility of being trapped within my body, i'd rather die. Organ donoation is one of the most genial things you can do, you die, but pieces of you benifit others and thats a piece of you still living on, and unforgotten.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35111174]Question How are you going to prove that they're more likely to let you die in court?[/QUOTE]
Random workers in hospitals are paid by safety officals to report any wrongdoing
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35110973]
Speaking as someone who wants to go to medical school, too. Sometimes, the acts of the field I hope to go into disgust me.[/QUOTE]
Don't be disgusted by the field as a whole, the whole point of medicine is the help people live a full and healthy life, there are a few details on how best to distribute resources that are in question and who has a priority, but these are minor details. Good luck in Med school, I hope you get where you want to be, and don't let tiny details like this get in your way of arguably one of the most rewarding career paths you can go down.
[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;35110502]I'm going to disagree, the person is still breathing and the blood is still pumping and the body is healing. Even though they are declared brain dead the body is still alive and quite obviously working.[/QUOTE]
Okay, their autonomic functions are still operating.
Its the equivalent of having a computer with no Operating System, sure it is functioning, but it isn't going to do anything, ever.
I'm registered as a donor but I have a suspicion that by the time they get to them my organs will be pretty wrecked, generally speaking my family live for a pretty long time so i'll be pretty decrepit when they open me up.
[QUOTE=inconspicious;35113575]Okay, their autonomic functions are still operating.
Its the equivalent of having a computer with no Operating System, sure it is functioning, but it isn't going to do anything, ever.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to say "Oh this is terrible what if the people are still feeling everything! doctors are evil" BUT the fact that the body is actually doing its main function of keep itself alive is kind of alarms, especially the fact that the nervous system is still intact and working, they need to update the criteria.
We've advanced in technology so much since the 70's that I think we should atleast do many more tests.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Also, I'm going to note that I'm completely for Organ Donation as my friend is on the transplant waiting list for new lungs.
[quote]But BHCs—who don't receive anesthetics during an organ harvest operation—react to the scalpel like inadequately anesthetized live patients, exhibiting high blood pressure and sometimes soaring heart rates. Doctors say these are simply reflexes.[/quote]
I really like this bit. They don't elaborate on it further. It's like they're trying to get you to criticize what a doctors says. entire article is just dumb.
read from front page thinking this was "The dark side of Orgasms" or "The dark side of Origin"
I am more creeped out than i expected, but can you really blame them? one healthy people dies and the viable organs will save or extend the life of over 5 people! (optimistically speaking).. Forcing this however is beyond stupid
I am sorry but this is a load of bullshit. First of all define the term "brain death" correctly. In today's legal and medical setting (religions have differing opinions, but they usually go with the prevailing medical and ethical opinion) the definition of death is brain-stem death or lack of brain stem reflexes.
Brain stem is the piece of nervous tissue (actually a part of the brain) that sits between the spinal cord and the brain (so in the base of the skull goes into the brain and is also connected to the spinal cord) that is responsible from the most basic and autonomous of reflexes and muscle activity. This includes your autonomic breathing reflexes. Basically if your brain stem is dead (if you are brain stem dead) you do not breathe on your own, it is that simple.
Now the problem is, while we like to think the body as a whole, it is more like a jumble of individual tissues working together to survive, but obviously death of one tissue does not mean immediate death for others. Heart activity is independent of the brain (well not completely independent, but that is not required knowledge here) what that means is as long as the heart muscle is adequately oxygenated it will keep on beating on its own at a set rhythm continuously. However even a very short lapse in oxygenation can and will cause a heart attack (the heart tissue will die)
In the past this wasn't really much of an issue, because if something caused you to lose your brain stem reflexes it usually meant that your body and especially your heart wasn't oxygenated properly and you went into cardiac arrest, rest of your brain died etc... Nowadays though with ventilators you can keep someone artificially breathing almost indefinitely. Since the heart happily beats on its own and you supply artificial oxygenation, the body can be kept functioning. This is good news for organ donation because the organs can be kept viable for so much longer since they are in the body and are being properly oxygenated.
Where am I going with this? YOU ARE NOT ALIVE IF YOU ARE BRAIN STEM DEAD. If your brain stem reflexes are absent (which include some visual/auditory reflexes as well) there is no current medical procedure to bring back those reflexes and allow you to regain autonomic respiratory function. And since the brain stem is also responsible from the interaction between the higher brain functions and the autonomic system a brain stem death simply means the end. Artificially keeping your heart beating does not mean you are alive or you are coming back.
Finally, doctors do not let patients die to harvest their organs, the tests to determine brain stem death might seem simple but that does not mean they are ineffective, and the choice of calling someone brain stem dead is never an easy.
[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;35113625]I'm not going to say "Oh this is terrible what if the people are still feeling everything! doctors are evil" BUT the fact that the body is actually doing its main function of keep itself alive is kind of alarms, especially the fact that the nervous system is still intact and working, they need to update the criteria.
We've advanced in technology so much since the 70's that I think we should atleast do many more tests.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
Also, I'm going to note that I'm completely for Organ Donation as my friend is on the transplant waiting list for new lungs.[/QUOTE]
The brain stem is working, that is all that this means, obviously there is no other 100% sure way to ensure that the concious sections of the brain won't snap back into life at any moment.
[QUOTE=inconspicious;35113797]The brain stem is working, that is all that this means, obviously there is no other 100% sure way to ensure that the concious sections of the brain won't snap back into life at any moment.[/QUOTE]
Consciousness isn't an all or none thing, your limbic system (various structures suggested to be involved with emotion in the lower brain/stem) is located near your medulla, which dictates your autonomic functions or a majority of them outside of your endocrine system. So if your autonomic functions are still going, chances are that area of the brain hasn't been damaged as much as your frontal lobe, or cortex has. so you could still be capable of feeling emotions, maybe not be able to express or interpret them as it is suggested that a functioning frontal lobe/cortex is needed to interpret these signals, but it goes to show that since your autonomic functions (medulla) and your limbic systems are closely related in proximity from each other in structures, it could be argued that you can still feel emotion as long as your heart has the ability interact with your changing environment. (IE increase BP or heart rate when sliced open)
[QUOTE=ScoutKing;35113863]Consciousness isn't an all or none thing, your limbic system (various structures suggested to be involved with emotion in the lower brain/stem) is located near your medulla, which dictates your autonomic functions or a majority of them outside of your endocrine system. So if your autonomic functions are still going, chances are that area of the brain hasn't been damaged as much as your frontal lobe, or cortex has. so you could still be capable of feeling emotions, maybe not be able to express or interpret them as it is suggested that a functioning frontal lobe/cortex is needed to interpret these signals, but it goes to show that since your autonomic functions and your limbic systems are closely related in proximity from each other in structures, it could be argued that you can still feel emotion as long as your heart has the ability interact with your changing environment. (IE increase BP or heart rate when sliced open)
But ill put it into a term you can understand inconspicious Just because your OS is down, doesn't mean your mobo can't do basic functions.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, they even said that one donor moved when the scalpel started cutting. So the, as you stated, limbic system potentially reacted to this causing the body to move.
You'll never know if someone decided to kill you while in coma. It simply doesn't matter because you won't experience it, so fearing it is a bit pointless.
I don't mind knowing there's a possibility someone might kill me because they think i am unsavable while i actually was savable. I don't want it to happen, but when it does, i won't know about it.
[QUOTE=Fetret;35113699]wall of text talking about brain-stem death.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't a patients BP changing or heart rate adjusting to the stimuli of the removal of an organ during harvesting suggest that part of the limbic system is working, as this shows a working (okay maybe not 100% working, but sort of working) fight or flight response, which requires a brain-stem to transmit these signals to the cardiovascular system via hormones being released by the endocrine system, which is dictated by the pituitary gland, also above the brain-stem?
Or do i have this all wrong, or is the article a load of bullshit when it address the increase in vital signs during organ harvesting?
To all that OS and motherboard stuff that is going on, thats a completely wrong analogy that sidetracks everyone from the actual facts:
-If a person is not brain stem dead, their organs are not harvested.
-If a person is brain stem dead, there is no bringing them back, at least not with the current medical knowledge we have. Body trying to do its job etc... is a bunch of bullshit, the body does not have a job. Each tissue tries to survive on its own and usually fails when there is no coordination. Central nervous tissue does not repair since it is highly specialized.
-If there is another cause for the cessation of breathing (paralysis, bunch of syndromes, for arguments sake let's say snake poison) the brain stem reflex tests are there to differentiate between proper brain stem death and symptoms caused by other problems.
[editline]13th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=ScoutKing;35113987]Wouldn't a patients BP changing or heart rate adjusting to the stimuli of the removal of an organ during harvesting suggest that part of the limbic system is working, as this shows a working (okay maybe not 100% working, but sort of working) fight or flight response, which requires a brain-stem to transmit these signals to the cardiovascular system via hormones being released by the endocrine system, which is dictated by the pituitary gland, also above the brain-stem?
Or do i have this all wrong, or is the article a load of bullshit when it address the increase in vital signs during organ harvesting?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.cvpharmacology.com/autonomic_ganglia.htm[/url] gives a pretty good idea about the innervation of the heart.
Sympathetic nervous system (the system that is responsible from raising the heart rate and BP) uses adrenergic receptors in the heart, which are responsive to noradrenaline (norepinephrine in the article). Noradrenaline and Adrenaline is also secreted from the adrenal glands (the glands on top of the kidneys) and these also have an effect on the receptors found on the heart. Any damage done to the body, such as surgery, might trigger the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline from these glands which will cause the heart rate and BP to rise. This is a completely normal reflex. In fact generally the sympathetic nervous system acts by innervating the adrenal glands to release adrenaline and noradrenaline which then have an effect on target organ(s).
This might not be the actual case and the reflex arc might be different, but this is one explanation of why vital signs might rise with no brain activity and/or brain stem death.
[QUOTE=Fetret;35114000]To all that OS and motherboard stuff that is going on, thats a completely wrong analogy that sidetracks everyone from the actual facts:
-If a person is not brain stem dead, their organs are not harvested.
-If a person is brain stem dead, there is no bringing them back, at least not with the current medical knowledge we have. Body trying to do its job etc... is a bunch of bullshit, the body does not have a job. Each tissue tries to survive on its own and usually fails when there is no coordination. Central nervous tissue does not repair since it is highly specialized.
-If there is another cause for the cessation of breathing (paralysis, bunch of syndromes, for arguments sake let's say snake poison) the brain stem reflex tests are there to differentiate between proper brain stem death and symptoms caused by other problems.
[editline]13th March 2012[/editline]
[url]http://www.cvpharmacology.com/autonomic_ganglia.htm[/url] gives a pretty good idea about the innervation of the heart.
Sympathetic nervous system (the system that is responsible from raising the heart rate and BP) uses adrenergic receptors in the heart, which are responsive to noradrenaline (norepinephrine in the article). Noradrenaline and Adrenaline is also secreted from the adrenal glands (the glands on top of the kidneys) and these also have an effect on the receptors found on the heart. Any damage done to the body, such as surgery, might trigger the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline from these glands which will cause the heart rate and BP to rise. This is a completely normal reflex. In fact generally the sympathetic nervous system acts by innervating the adrenal glands to release adrenaline and noradrenaline which then have an effect on target organ(s).
This might not be the actual case and the reflex arc might be different, but this is one explanation of why vital signs might rise with no brain activity and/or brain stem death.[/QUOTE]
That actually makes sense
I'm donating, I'm superior to all of you whahaha!
But seriously, I'll be dead so it wouldn't matter.
[QUOTE=TehWhale;35113296]You want to be a medical student and you said LSD is [url=http://facepunch.com/threads/1169577?p=35098307&viewfull=1#post35098307]addicting and dangerous[/url]?[/QUOTE]
Has it occurred to you
REALLLY think here, it'll only hurt for a moment
Has it possibly even maybe occurred to you that I was joking?
[QUOTE=Strongbad;35114554]Has it occurred to you
REALLLY think here, it'll only hurt for a moment
Has it possibly even maybe occurred to you that I was joking?[/QUOTE]
Back-paddling in its truest form.
[QUOTE=ScoutKing;35114616]Back-paddling in its truest form.[/QUOTE]
Because the post was definitely in a serious manner and wasn't obviously a joke to anyone with eyes.
Your organs are harvested if you opt out as an organ donor!?!??!
My eyes have been opened! revoking my organdonatorship ASAP
[QUOTE=The Baconator;35110351]If you are brain dead you are dead. Your consciousness is inside your brain.[/QUOTE]
There is no scientific proof of this.
A tree has no brain, yet is alive until it's internal processes cease functioning. If you say "well people aren't the same as trees" then anyone with mental capacity lower than a certain threshold could be written off as well.
Certainly, considering how misunderstood the brain is (and how people *have* survived a complete halt of brain function) I think it's shallow to consider someone effectively dead just because they do not have detectable brain processes. How do we even know there isn't something occurring at a higher level undetectable by human instruments?
This area is just too gray to make that kind of decision without invoking the entire euthanasia argument, which itself opens the door to moral issues.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;35114994]There is no scientific proof of this.[/QUOTE]
That your consciousness is in your wetware, or that when you're dead in the head you're dead?
Because the former is not something one can scientifically prove as "consciousness" is vaguely defined, but for any operational definition, it's true, and the latter isn't something one can prove because it's a statement of value.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;35114994]A tree has no brain, yet is alive until it's internal processes cease functioning. If you say "well people aren't the same as trees" then anyone with mental capacity lower than a certain threshold could be written off as well.[/QUOTE]
Uh...they already are, really. Anencephalic babies are not resuscitated (either at all or a meager baseline attempt is made to cover a hospital's ass legally and then they're left to approach seasonal temperature), people are commonly warned to have their legal affairs in order so they can have plugs pulled if they go turnip, etc. It's a de facto thing, even if the law hasn't caught up.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;35114994]Certainly, considering how misunderstood the brain is (and how people *have* survived a complete halt of brain function) I think it's shallow to consider someone effectively dead just because they do not have detectable brain processes.[/QUOTE]
That has never happened.
[URL="http://www.neurology.org/content/74/23/1911.full"]In adults, there are no published reports of recovery of neurologic function after a diagnosis of brain death using the criteria reviewed in the 1995 American Academy of Neurology practice parameter.[/URL]
[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1504374/"]And, for those in the UK:[/URL]
[QUOTE]The validity of clinical criteria for diagnosing brain death has been investigated in three ways. A total of 447 published cases were reviewed. In three neurosurgical units (Cambridge, Glasgow, and Swansea) 609 patients diagnosed clinically as brain dead were studied; 326 had final cardiac asystole while still being ventilated, and ventilation was discontinued in the remainder. No patient recovered. The median time in hospital before the heart finally stopped was 3 1/2-4 1/2 days, with 30-40 hours on the ventilator. Analysis of prospective data from three countries on patients with severe head injuries showed that not one of 1003 survivors would ever have been suspected of being brain dead even in their worst state soon after injury.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jenkem;35114994]How do we even know there isn't something occurring at a higher level undetectable by human instruments?[/QUOTE]
How do you know I'm not a thousand year old monkey shaman?
IF you're brain dead, who cares if they kill you? you are a vegetable, so you won't really be doing much with your life. The only thing I find some what scary about this is that someone might still be brain alive even if their tests say otherwise. But if their is no way to get your brain back in control of your body, I would still rather have my organs harvested.
[editline]12th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jenkem;35114994]There is no scientific proof of this.
A tree has no brain, yet is alive until it's internal processes cease functioning. If you say "well people aren't the same as trees" then anyone with mental capacity lower than a certain threshold could be written off as well.
[/QUOTE]
lower than a certain threshold? Trees have no mental capacity. So yes, people who are brain dead should be written off.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;35114994]How do we even know there isn't something occurring at a higher level undetectable by human instruments?[/QUOTE]
higher level? what higher level?
The thing with being brain-dead is that they can usually snap out of it after given some time. It's like the brain shuts down functions of the body so it can cut off unnecessary resources and repair itself in time. At least that's how I always saw it.
The way OP capitalized "Organ Donors", for a second I thought he was talking about the DJs.
I wasn't planning on donating anything at all anyway.
[editline]13th March 2012[/editline]
By the title I tought the article was going to be about kidnapped and butchered people for organs blackmarket
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;35114663]Your organs are harvested if you opt out as an organ donor!?!??!
My eyes have been opened! revoking my organdonatorship ASAP[/QUOTE]
No, you've misread it.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;35116186]
How do you know I'm not a thousand year old monkey shaman?[/QUOTE]
All hail the monkey shaman
[editline]13th March 2012[/editline]
may ye bless us with yr well thought out arguments and logic
[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;35110502]I'm going to disagree, the person is still breathing and the blood is still pumping and the body is healing. Even though they are declared brain dead the body is still alive and quite obviously working.[/QUOTE]
Actually what they talked about in the article quite a bit was about the brain activity of a brain dead person. Or a person who can't really move.
Also,
[quote]But BHCs (Beating-heart cadavers)—who don't receive anesthetics during an [b]organ harvest operation[/b]—react to the scalpel like inadequately anesthetized live patients, [b]exhibiting high blood pressure[/b] and [b]sometimes soaring heart rates[/b]. Doctors say these are simply reflexes.[/quote]
So something tells me that even if you are brain dead, you might not be as brain dead as it seems to non brain dead person.
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