Apparently some people are misinterpreting me. Let me clear some things up. I did not mean Islamic State as in ISIS, I mean a state that has a religion as Islam being it's main religion. I hope you people realize that Islam hasn't always been the way it is right now. The rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the forms of such things as Wahabism has caused the way it is today. If you were to make state where the majority religion is not a fundamental form of Islam, and their culture isn't a dominating/violent culture, you could easily make a normal state that exists much as any western nation today. It'd be no different than any state today that has Christianity as it's main religion. We know this because this has already happened. For the longest time, the original Caliphate preserved and in some cases expanded upon the science and reason of the ancient Greeks, and when the Caliphate was replaced by the Ottomans, the Ottomans were even ahead of the Western nations in the area of technology for the longest time. An Islamic-majority state without the teachings of fundamentalism could easily exist today without restricting their own citizens. Saying otherwise would be like saying that any country with Christianity as it's main religion could not exist without severely limiting the rights of it's citizens due to the teachings of the bible.
And about Culture, I did not mean people shouldn't be prideful in their culture. I'm simply suggesting that we shouldn't worry to much about a culture disappearing, because unless literally all of those culture's inhabitants get wiped out, there will still be some part of that culture even if it's mixed into another culture. Culture has always been a very flexible and mold-able thing, it's not just going to disappear. It might take place in a different form, but it unless something catastrophic happens, it will always be there.
If these ideas make me extremely left wing in some aspects, then so be it.
[editline]9th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48648462]That's absurdly doubtful. You're being incredibly naive.
These are refugees, not migrants. Migrants half the time don't want to assimulate and they willingly left their home and culture behind.
These refugees, if given a choice, would probably prefer to live peacefully at their old home before the war than go off into Europe (I'm sure not all, but I doubt 500,000+ have always had the desire to live in Europe).[/QUOTE]
Let's be honest here, probably not all of the refugees are going to go back. That doesn't make them migrants though, at least not until they decide whether they want to go back. The reason I think that Germany actually has a chance is because not only do they have the ability to learn from others mistakes (Sweden for example being too politically correct to try to integrate the migrants culture, or France just not caring enough to try to accept them (Building their own personal frickin' cities for them is not going to do it)), they actually have the motivation and determination to do it, and do it in a relatively short amount of time.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;48649660]While I think the jury is still out on whether or not Islam is inherently radical/violent, I think we can conclusively say that most muslims believe in what the west considers to be some radical shit. I consider myself a liberal and pretty much always vote democrat, (and I hate Ben Shapiro), but you can't argue with the numbers
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg[/media][/QUOTE]
Doesn't Ben Shapiro want Israel to just outright expel all Palestinians from the occupied territories?
He's not someone I feel I can exactly trust on middle eastern affairs without bias.
I don't think I have been disgusted with an FP thread so much before. The type of rhetoric coming from Arrow is just...I don't even know what to say other than what is wrong with you?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48649750]Doesn't Ben Shapiro want Israel to just outright expel all Palestinians from the occupied territories?
He's not someone I feel I can exactly trust on middle eastern affairs without bias.[/QUOTE]
I agree. In fact, here's an opposing view from Politifact: [url]http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/05/ben-shapiro/shapiro-says-majority-muslims-are-radicals/[/url]
Even if you accept that shariah law doesn't mean radicalization (though I think it is, at best, an extremely reactionary code of ethics), you've still got over 100 million radical Muslims world wide, but conservative estimates. My problem isn't the chance of the likelihood of a terrorist attack, but the effect that radical islam can have on society. i don't think women should be coerced into marriages or into wearing a hijab or having children at an age like 23 or 24. I think Radicalism in Islamic culture is a force to be reckoned with and I think that countries like Germany are throwing that concern to the wind. I'm not a monster, I know there is a massive humanitarian crisis going on here, but we need to look down the road and realize just exactly what the impact of this mass migration of muslims into europe is going to do to western culture, humanism, and civilization.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;48649660]While I think the jury is still out on whether or not Islam is inherently radical/violent, I think we can conclusively say that most muslims believe in what the west considers to be some radical shit. I consider myself a liberal and pretty much always vote democrat, (and I hate Ben Shapiro), but you can't argue with the numbers
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg[/media][/QUOTE]
not sure whether he's legit or not, watched some of his other vids and turns out he's some crazy orthodox jew hatin on anyone who aint a god-fearing jew or christian
[QUOTE=Jordax;48648592]You are a fucking lunatic. I thought at first that you were just painfully misinformed on anything Europa-related, but it is really evident now that you only try to use an appeal to emotions while sprouting shit that you would normally hear from bedlam patients. Or this got to be some top-tier trolling bait, I hope for your intelligence.
Also, even the official EU statistics show that the number of Adult Male refugees/immigrants outnumber both the amount of women and children by almost three to one now.
[url]http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Look, I have said this time and time again, I'm not trying to argue in a completely logical way. I'm trying to persuade you. Logical fallacies do not work, when someone is not trying to argue logic. Sure I may use logic along with emotion, as well as to explain that emotion, to appeal to you, but I'm not trying to straight out argue in a rational, logical way.
And, how does this prove anything? In the early 1900s, when immigrants were coming to the Americas, most of the immigrants were also male. Do you know why? Because they couldn't afford to send all of the family over. They sent the males over in the hopes that they could gain enough money in the new country so that they could afford the trip for their families. Smuggler's prices are incredibly expensive. They're doing the same thing this time as well. This also explains why they try to go to countries that have more benefits, since most countries have a policy where immigrants/asylum seekers have to wait for a period of time to work, thus causing them either that they have to wait while their families are still struggling back home or find some place that will actually give them money. Obviously, this isn't the case for all of them, but I'm fairly sure that if European countries were to open up their borders to refugees or even just removed the work wait period things would be much different.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48649690]Apparently some people are misinterpreting me. Let me clear some things up. I did not mean Islamic State as in ISIS, I mean a state that has a religion as Islam being it's main religion.[/QUOTE]
People still don't want that, the general attitude is that Governments should be Secular.
[QUOTE=Arrows;48648525]My God, you're so delusional, your so far left you make even Karl Marx look mediocre. So, you state you don't care about culture, but then contradict that when you state that you would rather European culture be replaced by middle eastern culture destroying it and that you don't mind the Islamic state, you are one hell of a islamic appeaser, i bet if a terrorist took you hostage you would try to appease him while he puts a bullet in your head.[/QUOTE]
It's funny that you think I'm so far left (honestly I could be for all I know) when you don't even realize how far right you are. Seriously, the some of the language you use just makes you look like some sort of Hitler-sympathizer joke. Not to mention all the misrepresenting and random asinine assumptions you're making. You're either a really damn good troll, or someone closing on the edge of lunacy.
[editline]9th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48649918]People still don't want that, the general attitude is that Governments should be Secular.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't even meaning that, I meant how in the country, the majority of the population would be Islamic. Perhaps I didn't give the most specific of words in this case, but that's what I mean.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48649954]
I wasn't even meaning that, I meant how in the country, the majority of the population would be Islamic. Perhaps I didn't give the most specific of words in this case, but that's what I mean.[/QUOTE]
The majority of Muslim countries have Islamic governments.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48650198]The majority of Muslim countries have Islamic governments.[/QUOTE]
And? How does this relate to what I'm talking about?
-snip- (probably fake)
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48649954]It's funny that you think I'm so far left (honestly I could be for all I know) when you don't even realize how far right you are. Seriously, the some of the language you use just makes you look like some sort of Hitler-sympathizer joke. Not to mention all the misrepresenting and random asinine assumptions you're making. You're either a really damn good troll, or someone closing on the edge of lunacy.
[editline]9th September 2015[/editline]
I wasn't even meaning that, I meant how in the country, the majority of the population would be Islamic. Perhaps I didn't give the most specific of words in this case, but that's what I mean.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I really doubt you would be talking that way if all these refugees/migrants would go to your country, I am more than 100% certain that if your country got flooded with migrants you wouldn't defend them and say "relax guys, it's okay, our culture doesn't matter, we will give up everything to make them all happy".
You can say whatever you want but I really think someone who isn't getting involved should have any say in this, it cant be: "It's okay guys, I am in US, there are no migrants coming to us nor we help EU in any way with this issue but [B]WE[/B] are doing good thing by letting everyone into EU".
[QUOTE=orcywoo6;48647948]Obviously applies to other countries too, especially in mainland europe.
[IMG]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34202767/ShareX/2015/09/2015-09-09_22-20-26.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
That's such a fucking stupid comparison. Our capital was bombed and some areas of it were completely crippled, but we still had other cities across the whole of the UK that remained unscathed?
Syria has it a lot fucking worse than us. It's not just one city that's had it bad, it's pretty much every fucking city. Plus, during the Blitz, we didn't have to deal with religious-crazed fanatics going around beheading people and trying to subjugate everyone under their shitty principles.
[editline]10th September 2015[/editline]
Oh and I forgot to mention that during the Blitz, we were facing an outside threat. It wasn't our own government turning on us. Boggles my mind to think people can post stuff like that and think it's in any way logical. 38k shares oh my god.
[QUOTE=arleitiss;48650684]Yeah, I really doubt you would be talking that way if all these refugees/migrants would go to your country, I am more than 100% certain that if your country got flooded with migrants you wouldn't defend them and say "relax guys, it's okay, our culture doesn't matter, we will give up everything to make them all happy".
You can say whatever you want but I really think someone who isn't getting involved should have any say in this, it cant be: "It's okay guys, I am in US, there are no migrants coming to us nor we help EU in any way with this issue but [B]WE[/B] are doing good thing by letting everyone into EU".[/QUOTE]
Your flagdog says you're in Ireland, so you're Irish no? We are talking about Germany here. Unless flagdog go you wrong, I'd say this means that you wouldn't really have a say in the matter either.
It doesn't matter where you're from. If there where a situation like this in the US, I would fucking gladly let them in, or at least argue that we should do so. Even now I think we should open our borders to the Syrian refugees, if nothing else than to take a small amount of pressure off Germany and the rest of Europe.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48651711]Your flagdog says you're in Ireland, so you're Irish no? We are talking about Germany here. Unless flagdog go you wrong, I'd say this means that you wouldn't really have a say in the matter either.
It doesn't matter where you're from. If there where a situation like this in the US, I would fucking gladly let them in, or at least argue that we should do so. Even now I think we should open our borders to the Syrian refugees, if nothing else than to take a small amount of pressure off Germany and the rest of Europe.[/QUOTE]
I live in Ireland which agreed to take 3000 refugees.
I lived in Latvia and have family in Latvia which also takes refugees.
I was born in Ukraine which doesn't take part in this because it's full of it's own problems.
I am more related to this than you are going around and convincing everyone to believe same thing.
And knowing how US feels about migrants, I hardly doubt they would let anyone in without 5 years of application processes.
[QUOTE=loopoo;48650975]That's such a fucking stupid comparison. Our capital was bombed and some areas of it were completely crippled, but we still had other cities across the whole of the UK that remained unscathed?
Syria has it a lot fucking worse than us. It's not just one city that's had it bad, it's pretty much every fucking city. Plus, during the Blitz, we didn't have to deal with religious-crazed fanatics going around beheading people and trying to subjugate everyone under their shitty principles.
[editline]10th September 2015[/editline]
Oh and I forgot to mention that during the Blitz, we were facing an outside threat. It wasn't our own government turning on us. Boggles my mind to think people can post stuff like that and think it's in any way logical. 38k shares oh my god.[/QUOTE]
Also somebody clearly skipped juniors history class because [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuations_of_civilians_in_Britain_during_World_War_II"]lots of people DID run away during the Blitz[/URL], albeit with the government intervention I doubt genocidal dictators like Assad would much care to dispense. If the [I]entire[/I] country were being shelled by our own government and gas was actually deployed during the Blitz? Yeah we'd panic and run, anyone would. London would be a ghostly war zone like Aleppo or Sarajevo.
The problem with the comparison is really a matter of scale. If you just made the Blitz bigger and made the British government hostile, of course the evacuation would have been bigger and run further away to counter it. There's your "common sense" for you.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;48649652]After the Paris shootings over the Mohammed caricature, one of the first reactions of Muslims all over the world, but especially in the west (US, England, etc.) was not to condemn the shooting or to say "this doesn't represent islam", but instead to condemn the writers and illustrators for what they said about Mohammed. They say "You can't hide behind free speech to preach hate" and saying that speech against religion (especially islam) ought to be outlawed. These are young people living in first world countries, not the ayatollah of Iran or Osama bin Laden. There are thousands of people in the US and the west with these fucked up views that are totally contrary to western society and I think we ought to be careful about who we're letting in.[/QUOTE]
This is false regarding at least the larger Muslim communities in Germany. [URL="http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/deutsche-muslime-und-der-anschlag-auf-charlie-hebdo-wir-haben-uns-sehr-stark-gefuehlt-bis-mittwoch-1.2297369"]I remember them condemning the shooting pretty harshly (and very quickly, but I suppose that's a given for "first reactions")[/URL][URL="https://archive.is/OIOge#selection-2383.0-2461.587"].[/URL]
To give some numbers for the general picture:
[URL="http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/studie-der-bertelsmann-stiftung-deutsche-werden-immer-islamfeindlicher-1.2294949-2"]According to a recent study 90% of highly religious Muslims here are pro-democracy and 60% of religious Muslims here would accept gay marriage[/URL][URL="https://archive.is/yeeOX#selection-2049.0-2057.138"].[/URL]
[URL="http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/"]The latter value is pretty low compared to overall 87% acceptance in Germany, but for example compared to the USA it appears to be exactly the same[/URL] (or higher, since the question is a bit softer in the second link)[URL="https://archive.is/S3rZ5"].[/URL]
(As an aside: Germany doesn't have full marriage equality. The Christian parties blocked it so far.)
[URL="http://www.bpb.de/politik/extremismus/islamismus/36361/islamistische-gruppen-in-deutschland"]Overall about 1% of Muslims in Germany are members of Islamist groups[/URL][URL="https://archive.is/sxeAS#selection-2869.0-2869.415"].[/URL] It's quite a problem but at least here almost all of them are non-violent so the native extremists are a larger issue in that regard.
(More generally right-wing extremists against democracy are a larger issue here than the matching Islamist groups, both in total and percentage-wise of relevant demographies. The pretty openly anti-democratic NPD for example was at 1.5% in the last elections. On the left fringe there are authoritarian communist groups, though I don't know how large of an issue those are in practice. I suspect a significantly smaller one than right-wing extremists but I never really read up on it.
It's certainly necessary to counteract all of these trends where possible, but for now this place is in far higher danger of becoming nationalistically intolerant than Islamistically intolerant.)
(Most of the links are in German, but I put archive links highlighting the relevant parts on the periods so you can translate/check them more easily if you don't want to read the whole articles.)
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48651711]It doesn't matter where you're from. If there where a situation like this in the US, I would fucking gladly let them in, or at least argue that we should do so. Even now I think we should open our borders to the Syrian refugees, if nothing else than to take a small amount of pressure off Germany and the rest of Europe.[/QUOTE]
This would be pretty bad for the US, because we don't even take good care of our own citizens. So what we'll end up with is either:
1. We take them in, and they end up with no money, no job, and no home, like many homeless Americans already are. Crime will increase and anti-migrant attitudes will rise.
2. We take them in, provide shelter, food, money. And then poor Americans that do not get these things get angry, and Republicans win by a landslide (vaguely similar to Sweden).
We're just not equipped to deal with it, because we're not even taking good care of our own people.
[QUOTE=Araknid;48645311]What's with everyone thinking Syria is some third world shithole with no education[/QUOTE]
As someone who went to Syria and Jordan pretty often before all this bullshit, I can confirm that they're both well-educated countries. In Syria's case, it was a nice place under Bashar before the war. Fairly western, modern, secular (not that anyone there would admit it), and most importantly, stable. The fact that extremists cropped up there during the war was kind of surprising. Syria usually has such a tight grip on that sort of stuff that those kind of people can't slip through.
I think Syria can become a nice place again. It'll take a while and some fighting, but I hope it'll come back stronger through all this bullshit like it once was.
[QUOTE=Matthew0505;48658439]Meanwhile, moderate rebel (read: Islamists forcing people to flee Syria) loving Obama is going to take a [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/world/middleeast/obama-directs-administration-to-accept-10000-syrian-refugees.html?_r=0]grand total of 10,000[/url].[/QUOTE]
Seriously?
Iirc, Portugal is gonna take 3,000, and we are tiny as fuck when compared to the US on just about anything...
man some posts in this thread are fucking disgusting, didn't know FP had so many nationalists and neo-fascists.
[QUOTE=BuddieBBB;48666260]man some posts in this thread are fucking disgusting, didn't know FP had so many nationalists and neo-fascists.[/QUOTE]
No, it's not "disgusting". People having legitimate concerns over a mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of uneducated refugees from a radically-different wartorn society that's culturally dissimilar (incompatible in many ways as well) from their own is not "disgusting", it's not "Fascism/neo-Fascism", and it's not "nationalism". It's intelligent and sensible to question how this will affect them as natives/citizens, their fellow native citizens, their culture and society, and their government and country in the grand scheme of things.
When did stopping to think about the consequences of actions become a deplorable thing? It's important, and doesn't stop being important just because humanitarianism might be relevant.
[editline]12th September 2015[/editline]
We need to start targeting people like Buddie more to stop this shit rhetoric. You have no credibility when you start throwing around political labels as buzzword insults like "you're a Fascist/Nazi/Communist/etc.". People like you are just uselessly cluttering up this discussion and trying to appeal to that lowest strata of politically-active people who rely on feelings, buzzwords, and belief bandwagoning to shape their views-- not reasonable questions and answers.
[QUOTE=Govna;48667565]No, it's not "disgusting". People having legitimate concerns over a mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of uneducated refugees from a radically-different wartorn society that's culturally dissimilar (incompatible in many ways as well) from their own is not "disgusting", it's not "Fascism/neo-Fascism", and it's not "nationalism". It's intelligent and sensible to question how this will affect them as natives/citizens, their fellow native citizens, their culture and society, and their government and country in the grand scheme of things.
When did stopping to think about the consequences of actions become a deplorable thing? It's important, and doesn't stop being important just because humanitarianism might be relevant.
[editline]12th September 2015[/editline]
We need to start targeting people like Buddie more to stop this shit rhetoric. You have no credibility when you start throwing around political labels as buzzword insults like "you're a Fascist/Nazi/Communist/etc.". People like you are just uselessly cluttering up this discussion and trying to appeal to that lowest strata of politically-active people who rely on feelings, buzzwords, and belief bandwagoning to shape their views-- not reasonable questions and answers.[/QUOTE]
This times ten.
[QUOTE=Govna;48667565]No, it's not "disgusting". People having legitimate concerns over a mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of uneducated refugees from a radically-different wartorn society that's culturally dissimilar (incompatible in many ways as well) from their own is not "disgusting", it's not "Fascism/neo-Fascism", and it's not "nationalism". It's intelligent and sensible to question how this will affect them as natives/citizens, their fellow native citizens, their culture and society, and their government and country in the grand scheme of things.
When did stopping to think about the consequences of actions become a deplorable thing? It's important, and doesn't stop being important just because humanitarianism might be relevant.
[editline]12th September 2015[/editline]
We need to start targeting people like Buddie more to stop this shit rhetoric. You have no credibility when you start throwing around political labels as buzzword insults like "you're a Fascist/Nazi/Communist/etc.". People like you are just uselessly cluttering up this discussion and trying to appeal to that lowest strata of politically-active people who rely on feelings, buzzwords, and belief bandwagoning to shape their views-- not reasonable questions and answers.[/QUOTE]
I think the main issue is that most people panicking over it appear to be [B]severely[/B] under-informed regarding pretty much everything about the situation.
If you read up properly on it you'll see that while definitely quite suboptimal, here in Germany it isn't near as terrible as many make it out to be. And that the issues with our native extremism (on the left and right, each) are easily one or two magnitudes larger.
For reference: Almost every refugee expected this year would have to be anti-democratic for them to pass the amount of NPD voters in 2013.
(For those who don't know: That's our most prominent right-wing extremist party. [URL="http://www.bpb.de/politik/extremismus/rechtsextremismus/41473/npd-ohne-schminke?p=all"]Party officials have said some [I]really[/I] interesting things[/URL][URL="https://archive.is/ArCWu"].[/URL] ([URL="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bpb.de%2Fpolitik%2Fextremismus%2Frechtsextremismus%2F41473%2Fnpd-ohne-schminke%3Fp%3Dall&edit-text=&act=url"]translation[/URL]))
:snip:
[QUOTE=BuddieBBB;48666260] disgusting[/QUOTE]
I find it amazing how such a basic word can be abused and overused so much that it almost becomes meaningless. Person X disagrees with me on a Social topic? DISGUSTING. Person Y disagrees with me on immigration politics? DISGUSHTING.
Reactionary generalizing shitposters from the left wing always use this word, it's amazingly consistent.
[QUOTE=loopoo;48644847]Genuine question, [B]not xenophobia or anything[/B]: would having such a large influx of immigrants from a war-torn country with little to no education not cause a veritable truckload of problems in the country they're migrating to?[/QUOTE]
Your question aside I just want to address the fact that this right here even needing to be said is just insane.
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