Turkey 'to escort Gaza aid ships' amid row with Israel - Polidicks

Hehe, Japan sunk one of our ships before WWII, then they were all nice about it, paid for it and apologized.

[QUOTE=DoctorSalt;32191874]Hehe, Japan sunk one of our ships before WWII, then they were all nice about it, paid for it and apologized.[/QUOTE] "Woops, sorry about that! Here, let me get my check book out..."

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190550]Honestly, if it came down to either Turkey or Israel, I'm pretty sure the US would choose Turkey.[/QUOTE] ehm, disagree there is a fucking massive pro-Israel lobby in the US I cannot see the US taking any action against Israel in the next 20 years. even though Turkey is part of a military alliance we are part of, our ties to it are significantly weaker than our ties to Israel. then again, call me biased, I grew up around signs on synagogues that said "We stand with Israel"

[QUOTE=ewitwins;32190505]I seriously doubt the Israeli's would risk doing [B]ANYTHING[/B] against the Turkish military, and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't being realistic. Let's think about it for a second: Israel and Turkey have been friendly for far too long to risk degrading their relationship any farther. The people of both Israel and Turkey would never let any sort of conflict to take place (seeing as both nations are of a democratic nature). It would be absolute [B]suicide[/B] for Israel to instigate combat of any nature towards Turkey simply because Turkey has a larger Navy, a larger Air Force, a larger Army, they basically outnumber Israel by a ridiculous sum. Lastly, it simply [B]would not be worth it[/B]. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] Shite, did I use enough bolding?[/QUOTE] Do they understand the concept of consequences though? Because they've never really had any.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32191807]No, it still wouldn't be war. NK has sunk numerous SK vessels, France sunk a New Zealand ship, Israel even sunk a US ship once, they are incidents but do not force them into war. They will look for every possible alternative but to think they would be so bloodthirsty from it as to jump into war immediately is absurd.[/QUOTE] You'd be hard pressed to convince me that in a situation where a nation openly states that they will defend flotillas with military support would choose not to use military support to follow up on an attack that resulted in the deaths of their own military. It's pretty clear here that the result would lead to military action. But at the same time I doubt Israel would consider trying to sink turkish warships for this reason. It's like the last flotilla a few months ago, Israel chose to use other means to stop it rather than military support because they were in a situation where the international backlash would outweigh the benefit of using it. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] As for the NK SK incidents, you are citing an example where the north is the agressor to the south who is trying to maintain peace, which is not the same in this situation.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190425]Except Turkey is part of NATO, if Israel fucks with them it'll be like a rat trying to fight a 500 pound gorilla.[/QUOTE] You know rats usually attack giant targets in packs and eat them alive, that is if they are really hungry and not urban rats.

[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;32192585]You'd be hard pressed to convince me that in a situation where a nation openly states that they will defend flotillas with military support would choose not to use military support to follow up on an attack that resulted in the deaths of their own military. It's pretty clear here that the result would lead to military action. But at the same time I doubt Israel would consider trying to sink turkish warships for this reason. It's like the last flotilla a few months ago, Israel chose to use other means to stop it rather than military support because they were in a situation where the international backlash would outweigh the benefit of using it. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] As for the NK SK incidents, you are citing an example where the north is the agressor to the south who is trying to maintain peace, which is not the same in this situation.[/QUOTE] The reason for having the Turkish ships there is to put Israel on their best behaviour. They can't exactly run the operation how they would like if they are there, they have to do everything by the book. It's not military support it's an escort and it's not to force a military engagement regardless of what the stupid public think. Hell, it's all part of Turkey's efforts to force Israel to stop being such a big baby. If they wanted to start a war, they would build up their forces and would have stopped joint military training exercises long ago. What they are doing now is bringing diplomatic action such as the expulsion of their ambassador and pushing the blockade in the UN. They don't want a fucking war, but war isn't the only way to do something.

Maybe it'll all work out and having both militaries on the scene will let the ships be searched without any controversy. Turkey's continued support of Hamas makes me think this is sadly unlikely though. Best case scenario is that they'll act as a mediator.

[QUOTE=doonbugie2;32192600]You know rats usually attack giant targets in packs and eat them alive, that is if they are really hungry and not urban rats.[/QUOTE] ...what? [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=BradB;32193141]Maybe it'll all work out and having both militaries on the scene will let the ships be searched without any controversy. Turkey's continued support of Hamas makes me think this is sadly unlikely though. Best case scenario is that they'll act as a mediator.[/QUOTE] That's actually not a bad idea. Both sides search each ship of anything that could be considered non-humanitarian.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;32193313] That's actually not a bad idea. Both sides search each ship of anything that could be considered non-humanitarian.[/QUOTE]Haha that's a terrible idea. You're posting this under the assumption Israel has sane and correct view on what is humanitarian. Do even know what's banned under the Israeli blockade? I'd say 90% of the aid on the ship would be considered illegal by Israel and will never see Gaza, if Israel is allowed to search/sort the aid themselves. This is why people refuse to take the "official Israeli channels" because those channels are in direct violation of international law.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;32193400]Haha that's a terrible idea. You're posting this under the assumption Israel has sane and correct view on what is humanitarian. Do even know what's banned under the Israeli blockade? I'd say 90% of the aid on the ship would be considered illegal by Israel and will never see Gaza, if Israel is allowed to search/sort the aid themselves. This is why people refuse to take the "official Israeli channels" because those channels are in direct violation of international law.[/QUOTE] ...aid as labelled by the United Nations? Maybe some international standard that all parties can follow?

[QUOTE=ewitwins;32193438]...aid as labelled by the United Nations? Maybe some international standard that all parties can follow?[/QUOTE]There is one that already exists. When was the last time Israel actually listened to international law?

Turkey's involvement has nothing to do with the searches or classification of contraband, the only thing they are worried about is another incident resulting in civilian deaths. For that, it'll probably work. As long as the Turks play an active role rather than just sitting back waiting until something goes wrong, should prevent Israel from doing something stupid and hopefully the people on the ships will know not to do anything stupid either.

[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;32192585] As for the NK SK incidents, you are citing an example where the north is the agressor to the south who is trying to maintain peace, which is not the same in this situation.[/QUOTE] Not to mention they are still legally at war which makes it a very different situation all round.

[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;32190184]it only took 4 posts for godwin's law to prove itself again[/QUOTE] "Again"? It happens so rarely these days it's entirely pointless.

I see too many imbecile comments here. Now, I will represent Israel's side. I welcome any resident from Turkey to comment. But before I even start, I just want to state, I find this whole comotion between Israel and Turkey, and around the argument, stupid as hell. So, let's start reviewing the events: Turkey sent an aid flotilla to Gaza, the Mavi Marmara, saying it has medications and aid for the citizens of Gaza. The flotilla was headed to the Gaza, where it was welcomed by the Israeli army. The army requested the flotilla to stop, so it can check the contents of the ship, though the ship continued towards Gaza. The army again told the ship to stop, but they continued. The army then boarded the ship, where they were welcomed by clubbing and stabbing, forcing them to shoot the attackers with rubber bullets. After stopping the attackers, with several killed acivists and injured Israeli soldiers, the army inspected the ship, though it wasn't medications and aiding items that they found, but crates of weapons, small missile heads, and other kinds of explosives. Now tell me. For this must we apologise? For boarding an "aid" flotilla full of weapons and explosives that refused to stop for inspection before entering Gaza? The Prime Minister said to the press of Israel even before the flotilla arrived, that they will let the flotilla proceed to Gaza if it contains important stuff to the residents, but upon refusing to stop for inspection, and transporting weapons, it is Turkey's fault. Not ours. And on another matter. It is Turkey that sends weapons to Gaza, and blaming us for boarding the ship, when Gaza launches missiles constantly targeting cities in south Israel and killing more and more people all the time, and I can provide articles if needed. tl;dr Turkey sent weapons to Gaza, blames us for boarding the flotilla after refusing inspection.

[QUOTE=Holy Altnir;32196773]I see too many imbecile comments here. Now, I will represent Israel's side. I welcome any resident from Turkey to comment. But before I even start, I just want to state, I find this whole comotion between Israel and Turkey, and around the argument, stupid as hell. So, let's start reviewing the events: Turkey sent an aid flotilla to Gaza, the Mavi Marmara, saying it has medications and aid for the citizens of Gaza. The flotilla was headed to the Gaza, where it was welcomed by the Israeli army. The army requested the flotilla to stop, so it can check the contents of the ship, though the ship continued towards Gaza. The army again told the ship to stop, but they continued. The army then boarded the ship, where they were welcomed by clubbing and stabbing, forcing them to shoot the attackers with rubber bullets. After stopping the attackers, with several killed acivists and injured Israeli soldiers, the army inspected the ship, though it wasn't medications and aiding items that they found, but crates of weapons, small missile heads, and other kinds of explosives. Now tell me. For this must we apologise? For boarding an "aid" flotilla full of weapons and explosives that refused to stop for inspection before entering Gaza? The Prime Minister said to the press of Israel even before the flotilla arrived, that they will let the flotilla proceed to Gaza if it contains important stuff to the residents, but upon refusing to stop for inspection, and transporting weapons, it is Turkey's fault. Not ours. And on another matter. It is Turkey that sends weapons to Gaza, and blaming us for boarding the ship, when Gaza launches missiles constantly targeting cities in south Israel and killing more and more people all the time, and I can provide articles if needed. tl;dr Turkey sent weapons to Gaza, blames us for boarding the flotilla after refusing inspection.[/QUOTE] hahahahaha that's an outright lie, first, that flotilla was multi-national, not turkish but it WAS inspected and cleared by turkish navy, second, they did NOT have any weapons on board the 'weapons' that israel claimed they had all amounted to various tools found on any boat, third, it has been PROVEN that israeli commandos opened fired on the flotilla ships before they even started boarding. what makes you think you can tell outright lies and not get called out on it?

Anyone who believes this is going to happen is too naive. I have a serious question here-Do you really think Israel, or Turkey, or any other government really gives a flying fuck about the humanitarian situation in Gaza? Fuuuuck no. People, sure. Private organizations, not all of them, but some. But politicians just use whatever they have to either rally support to get reelected again or to divert public attention from the shit and corruption that is inside their own government. My point is this- The Israeli governemnt acted like a bunch of babies in 2010, and Erdoğan couldn't have gotten a better gift. All he's doing right now is waving his dick around in Israel's face going [B]PHWOARR[/B] and hoping that the citizens of Turkey would back him up and think of him as a hero. But is he going to make a military move? I highly doubt it.

[QUOTE=TParlour;32191781]although any naval incident between Turkey and Israel would be highly publicized, I don't think it would do much beyond that. Consider how little attention the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan received.[/QUOTE] Huh? The Cheonan was all over the news

I wonder how Turkey would react when someone decided to send a Free North-Cyprus flotilla or a Kurdish Humanitarian Aid fleet. Erdogan is just trying to get more votes for the coming election and the turkish government consist out of hypocrites.

[QUOTE=Glorbo;32197260]Anyone who believes this is going to happen is too naive. I have a serious question here-Do you really think Israel, or Turkey, or any other government really gives a flying fuck about the humanitarian situation in Gaza? Fuuuuck no. People, sure. Private organizations, not all of them, but some. But politicians just use whatever they have to either rally support to get reelected again or to divert public attention from the shit and corruption that is inside their own government. My point is this- The Israeli governemnt acted like a bunch of babies in 2010, and Erdoğan couldn't have gotten a better gift. All he's doing right now is waving his dick around in Israel's face going [B]PHWOARR[/B] and hoping that the citizens of Turkey would back him up and think of him as a hero. But is he going to make a military move? I highly doubt it.[/QUOTE] pretty much agree here... when a politician actually gaf about people somewhere I will shit brix

[QUOTE=Holy Altnir;32196773][highlight]I see too many imbecile comments here[/highlight].[/quote] [QUOTE=Holy Altnir;32196773]the army inspected the ship, [B]though it wasn't medications and aiding items that they found, but crates of weapons, small missile heads, and other kinds of explosives[/B].[/quote] [QUOTE=Holy Altnir;32196773]For boarding an "aid" flotilla full of weapons and explosives[/quote] [QUOTE=Holy Altnir;32196773][B]Turkey sent weapons to Gaza[/B], blames us for boarding the flotilla after refusing inspection.[/QUOTE]

Turkey, awesome AND yummy. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;32192585]You'd be hard pressed to convince me that in a situation where a nation openly states that they will defend flotillas with military support would choose not to use military support to follow up on an attack that resulted in the deaths of their own military. It's pretty clear here that the result would lead to military action. But at the same time I doubt Israel would consider trying to sink turkish warships for this reason. It's like the last flotilla a few months ago, Israel chose to use other means to stop it rather than military support because they were in a situation where the international backlash would outweigh the benefit of using it. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] As for the NK SK incidents, you are citing an example where the north is the agressor to the south who is trying to maintain peace, which is not the same in this situation.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't be a smart idea for israel to go to war with turkey over this, several countries would help them due to israel killing (their) civilians on an aid ship.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;32196925]hahahahaha that's an outright lie, first, that flotilla was multi-national, not turkish but it WAS inspected and cleared by turkish navy, second, they did NOT have any weapons on board the 'weapons' that israel claimed they had all amounted to various tools found on any boat, third, it has been PROVEN that israeli commandos opened fired on the flotilla ships before they even started boarding. what makes you think you can tell outright lies and not get called out on it?[/QUOTE] First of all, I didn't exactly knew which countries sent the flotilla, but I know Turkey was on of them, and one of the more influencing. Second of all, there WERE weapons on the ship. And even if they were all tools, it's not the medications they claimed to be transporting to Gaza. And last but not least, it is absolutely not lies. But what am I saying? Obviously an Australian knows alot more than me as to what happend so close to my country.

[QUOTE=Holy Altnir;32198737]First of all, I didn't exactly knew which countries sent the flotilla, but I know Turkey was on of them, and one of the more influencing. Second of all, there WERE weapons on the ship. And even if they were all tools, it's not the medications they claimed to be transporting to Gaza. And last but not least, it is absolutely not lies. But what am I saying? Obviously an Australian knows alot more than me as to what happend so close to my country.[/QUOTE]You said Turkey sent "crates of weapons, small missile heads, and other kinds of explosives." Show us.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;32198753]You said Turkey sent "crates of weapons, small missile heads, and other kinds of explosives." Show us.[/QUOTE] Exactly. If Israel is so eager to point out weapon shipments, why have we no photographic evidence? No pictures of the weapons on-board?

[QUOTE=ewitwins;32190505] It would be absolute [B]suicide[/B] for Israel to instigate combat of any nature towards Turkey simply because Turkey has a larger Navy, a larger Air Force, a larger Army, they basically outnumber Israel by a ridiculous sum. [/QUOTE] I would be a terrible conflict, but I must admit a sort of grim curiosity as to the actual outcome. Turkey certainly has the numerical advantage, but Israel has an unusual amount of tech vested in their hardware. Not to mention Israel is often touted as having the best trained pilots in the world. Which, given what I have heard, may very well be true. Not saying either side would win, but it would be a rather interesting, if macabre, conflict.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;32198808]Exactly. If Israel is so eager to point out weapon shipments, why have we no photographic evidence? No pictures of the weapons on-board?[/QUOTE] I'll try and find photos. It was shown live in the news. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] Here. Small photo, but that's the first I found, and I have to go. [URL=http://www.siz.co.il/][IMG]http://up353.siz.co.il/up2/nntwdtymzddk.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[QUOTE=Holy Altnir;32199260] Here. Small photo, but that's the first I found, and I have to go. [URL=http://www.siz.co.il/][IMG]http://up353.siz.co.il/up2/nntwdtymzddk.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE] What? This is a picture of a weapons cache, where does it indicate it came from the Flotilla? This is not how you try to prove a (bullshit) claim.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;32197436]Just a small nitpick, but opening fire on a trespassing ship is standard protocol worldwide. It's basically navy rules of engagement 101. However you're supposed to shoot several times in front of the ship, if this fails and the ship refuses to change course or halt you are then authorized to take offensive action which is usually simply shooting the engine of the ship without harming its crew, bringing the ship to a standstill. However in this case, Israel stormed with commandos.[/QUOTE] One thing I don't quite understand, how does Israel think it has a right to stop vessels going to a sovereign nation that is not their own? Like imagine if Russia was trying to sell some arms to Vietnam/China/etc. and some Western-allied nation tried to board the freighter and shoot people on board, there'd be a mountain of outcry.