New Jersey may raise the legal age to purchase tobacco to 21 (from 19); will be first in the nation - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sableye;48303003]Isn't there a federal law dictating the smoking age regardless[/QUOTE] Yes, a minimum of 18. States can go higher, just not lower. Same with purchasing alcohol (or preventing the sale, period. There's a lot of dry counties in the US while it's legal nation wide)

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48302214]it will be interesting to see what effect this has on teen smokers. i wouldn't be surprised if it went down and new smoker rate also went down[/QUOTE] Literally none. This doesn't even touch teenagers, so why would it have any effect? [editline]27th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48303179]Yes, a minimum of 18. States can go higher, just not lower. Same with purchasing alcohol (or preventing the sale, period. There's a lot of dry counties in the US while it's legal nation wide)[/QUOTE] IRRC, for alcohol, states can go below the minimum, but they lose benefits from the federal government.

It really is pathetic how some of you are supporting yet another law prohibiting legal adults from purchasing something that they're putting in their own body.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48303253]Literally none. This doesn't even touch teenagers, so why would it have any effect?[/QUOTE] It's easier to get cigarettes from a 19 year old friend than from a 21 year old friend. I just got out of a New Jersey high school, and that's how most of the burnouts got their smokes.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;48302502]just make it 18 and let people make their own decision if they want to die of lung cancer or not it's absurd that I can be trusted to kill another person, judge somebody guilty or innocent, fight in the military, raise a child, raise multiple children, adopt a child, buy a vehicle, own a business, run for government, take care of an animal, or do anything that adults can do anywhere in the world... but I can't make the decision to buy cigarettes or alcohol Just make everything a flat 18 and leave it there. Increasing this does nothing at all to discourage smoking - if anything it makes it more illustrious and attractive to younger people. Just make it a flat 18, tax it, and be done.[/QUOTE] This. 18 is the age where you are legally considered an adult. Having any age limit for anything above that is just stupid. I never understood why the US uses such an arbitrary age limit for alcohol.

$500 sounds incredibly tame. Here in Australia the fines for sellers start at around $25k

Love all the people who say this law won't matter 'because we'll find a way to get them anyways!" I remember when I was 16 and trying to get booze, it was always a fucking ordeal because not every 16 year old is cool with a 21 year old who's going to buy them booze. Same goes for this law, most younger kids don't know people in the age group so it's going to be way more difficult to get cigarettes now. Good for NJ.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48302214]it will be interesting to see what effect this has on teen smokers. i wouldn't be surprised if it went down and new smoker rate also went down[/QUOTE] Yeah because teens already bought smokes legally and you NEVER see alcohol at high school parties because you have to be 21 to buy it! [editline]27th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48304971] most younger kids don't know people in the age group so it's going to be way more difficult to get cigarettes now..[/QUOTE] Yeah, if you're a complete anti-social nerd maybe. Getting alcohol/pot/mdma/smokes is fucking easy if you spent any time socializing at all. [editline]27th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;48303372]It's easier to get cigarettes from a 19 year old friend than from a 21 year old friend. I just got out of a New Jersey high school, and that's how most of the burnouts got their smokes.[/QUOTE] Except in the U.S. you can also just order cigarettes or tobacco in general online and say you're 18. Most online stores have no system for carding you AND unlike alcohol, tobacco ordered online isn't subject to ID check on delivery by the courier/mail. I remember personally buying cigarettes or rolling tobacco online when I was 14 years old, having it shipped to my house in my name and receiving the package just fine. In fact that's how I got smokes before high school rolled around because I wasn't about to be squeezed for $10 a pack by some guy that thinks a 14 year old was an easy target to scalp. You know why teenage smoking is dropping? Because people are finally realizing that smoking is fucking disgusting and causes horrible health problems. You don't solve drug problems by making people jump through more hoops, you solve the problem with education. Did prohibition stop people from drinking just because it was harder to get? Of course not.

Old enough to goto war, old enough to buy porn, old enough to buy guns, but not old enough to drink or smoke. Seriously, increasing the age of these things will not fix anything, and will only create black markets. If anything, people will probably just start farming tobacco for themselves, or directly contact tobacco farmers to get their vices.

[QUOTE=draugur;48305106]Yeah because teens already bought smokes legally and you NEVER see alcohol at high school parties because you have to be 21 to buy it! [editline]27th July 2015[/editline] Yeah, if you're a complete anti-social nerd maybe. Getting alcohol/pot/mdma/smokes is fucking easy if you spent any time socializing at all. [editline]27th July 2015[/editline] Except in the U.S. you can also just order cigarettes or tobacco in general online and say you're 18. Most online stores have no system for carding you AND unlike alcohol, tobacco ordered online isn't subject to ID check on delivery by the courier/mail. I remember personally buying cigarettes or rolling tobacco online when I was 14 years old, having it shipped to my house in my name and receiving the package just fine. In fact that's how I got smokes before high school rolled around because I wasn't about to be squeezed for $10 a pack by some guy that thinks a 14 year old was an easy target to scalp. You know why teenage smoking is dropping? Because people are finally realizing that smoking is fucking disgusting and causes horrible health problems. You don't solve drug problems by making people jump through more hoops, you solve the problem with education. Did prohibition stop people from drinking just because it was harder to get? Of course not.[/QUOTE] Lol how old are you?

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;48305190]Old enough to goto war, old enough to buy porn, old enough to buy guns, but not old enough to drink or smoke. Seriously, increasing the age of these things will not fix anything, and will only create black markets. If anything, people will probably just start farming tobacco for themselves, or directly contact tobacco farmers to get their vices.[/QUOTE] You got a point, we should raise the minimum age on porn and guns.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;48302390]It will stop Highschool seniors from buying cigarettes and giving them out to whatever younger kids 14-17 in the lower grades will pay for them.[/QUOTE] Only kids that stay back are 19 in high school so in NJ this is no solution at all actually. You think nobody knows anyone that graduated a year or two ago? It's still incredibly easy

[QUOTE=draugur;48305106]Yeah, if you're a complete anti-social nerd maybe. Getting alcohol/pot/mdma/smokes is fucking easy if you spent any time socializing at all.[/QUOTE]This is my only problem with your post and here's why: I don't know what 21-year-olds you hung out with but when I was 21 and everyone I knew was 21 nobody wanted to hang out with anyone significantly younger. Literally the only reason why I did that at all was because my girlfriend at the time was younger, I really didn't have anything in common with her friends. I really don't see teenagers hanging out with somebody who's old enough to drink because most of those people want to hang out with other people who actually have held down a job for a couple years. There's like this unspoken barrier at 19 where everyone younger than that just doesn't mesh well with the early twenty-somethings. I don't know, maybe it's just me and people in my area but I just can't see anyone who can go to bars and clubs willingly choosing to go kick cans at hobos or whatever the hell kids do these days.

I don't know why you guys are so concerned about finding a 21 year old to go buy cigarettes for you. All you have to do is steal your 47 year old father's.

[QUOTE=itisjuly;48302269]Won't work in US. Tobacco companies won't be too happy with such a decision and they have quite some power in a capitalist world.[/QUOTE] If you've ever been to the US outside of Virginia and some southern states, you'd know that tobacco is taxed to hell and back.

Take something away from people and they only want it more. Some people just don't understand how the world works

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;48306743]Take something away from people and they only want it more. Some people just don't understand how the world works[/QUOTE] I agree. Honestly kids have been smoking for so long it really shouldn't matter. It is a good thing I am not in charge of the world because I would just let everyone smoke under the premise that they will die faster and stem global overpopulation even just a tiny bit. Die faster people!

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48305218]Lol how old are you?[/QUOTE] 20, not that it's relevant to the discussion. [editline]27th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48306275]This is my only problem with your post and here's why: I don't know what 21-year-olds you hung out with but when I was 21 and everyone I knew was 21 nobody wanted to hang out with anyone significantly younger. Literally the only reason why I did that at all was because my girlfriend at the time was younger, I really didn't have anything in common with her friends. I really don't see teenagers hanging out with somebody who's old enough to drink because most of those people want to hang out with other people who actually have held down a job for a couple years. There's like this unspoken barrier at 19 where everyone younger than that just doesn't mesh well with the early twenty-somethings. I don't know, maybe it's just me and people in my area but I just can't see anyone who can go to bars and clubs willingly choosing to go kick cans at hobos or whatever the hell kids do these days.[/QUOTE] Back when I was in school there was always someone. Some kid's parents or older sibling, a homeless guy, shit some places just don't ID and would sell to minors if you looked like you belonged. Besides there's a hierarchy to these sorts of things. Unless you're an exception to not acting like the kid you still are at that point, you work up the chain, buy from middlemen who bought from sources, usually these were older kids or those few of the younger ones who had their own sources IE. parents or siblings, etc.. I'm not really sure on that whole unspoken barrier thing because here it's mostly everyone's cool with whatever unless you're some sort of angsty dweeb or a general shit bag. Or you're just seriously too immature and young. I had a shit life growing up and between occasionally having friends in the "wrong crowd" and having held a job my self since I was 14 to help pay bills/buy food it just came natural for me to always have hung with the older kids. Honestly as it stands I still don't have any friends that aren't at least two or three years older than me. Shit a few of my longest friends are nearing their late 20's.

[QUOTE=draugur;48306812]20, not that it's relevant to the discussion. [editline]27th July 2015[/editline] Back when I was in school there was always someone. Some kid's parents or older sibling, a homeless guy, shit some places just don't ID and would sell to minors if you looked like you belonged. Besides there's a hierarchy to these sorts of things. Unless you're an exception to not acting like the kid you still are at that point, you work up the chain, buy from middlemen who bought from sources, usually these were older kids or those few of the younger ones who had their own sources IE. parents or siblings, etc.. I'm not really sure on that whole unspoken barrier thing because here it's mostly everyone's cool with whatever unless you're some sort of angsty dweeb or a general shit bag. Or you're just seriously too immature and young. I had a shit life growing up and between occasionally having friends in the "wrong crowd" and having held a job my self since I was 14 to help pay bills/buy food it just came natural for me to always have hung with the older kids. Honestly as it stands I still don't have any friends that aren't at least two or three years older than me. Shit a few of my longest friends are nearing their late 20's.[/QUOTE] I think your age explains your thought process behind "if you couldn't buy drugs or alcohol in high school ur a fukken nerd"

Not sure if it will do anything as some people just don't care about smoking laws. This probably could happen somewhere. "Hey bro, may I have a smoke" "Sure, here have a packet" "Thanks"

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;48306743]Take something away from people and they only want it more. Some people just don't understand how the world works[/QUOTE] Actually no, most people aren't [i]that[/i] focused and driven, and they will give up when presented with inconveniences. Some won't, but most will. Most people aren't that desperate. This conventional "knowledge" that regulations and restrictions, even outright prohibition, don't work well at controlling people's habits is inaccurate, and usually people cite alcohol prohibition in the United States as evidence it doesn't work-- that it actually increases demand, makes black markets and crime pop up more frequently, etc. It just isn't true. There's always unintended consequences, but for the most part, if the law is written to be reasonable enough, it will accomplish whatever it's set out to do. With alcohol prohibition in the United States, deaths from alcohol abuse fell, mental patients admitted for alcohol disorders declined, arrests for public drunkeness declined, and the general public's consumption of alcohol declined. Just by banning its commercial sale and distribution, most people were inconvenienced enough to say fuck it and carry on with their lives minus drinking. Some challenged that and sold it underground, some people made their own beverages themselves for their personal consumption (which was actually legal)-- most did without it, and that was that. Or if they did drink, they moderated their intake and kept it in their homes to themselves. [url=http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/16/opinion/actually-prohibition-was-a-success.html]People just don't bother to pay attention to this fact though and instead base their views off of Hollywood portrayals, bandwagon wisdom, and the idea that "well it was repealed so it must've not worked and therefore can't work ever"[/url]. Just wait and see what happens. People can make predictions based off what's assumed to be common knowledge, but the easiest and the most reliable way to actually gauge how well these kinds of actions work is just to wait until their consequences (good or bad) become evident, not speculate because you have opinions and ideas about how the world works which aren't based off facts.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48306942]I think your age explains your thought process behind "if you couldn't buy drugs or alcohol in high school ur a fukken nerd"[/QUOTE] If you honestly can't tell me one person you knew in school that you could probably have obtained drugs from or would have set you on the right path for if you asked then you clearly didn't ever talk to a single person in school, yes you would be easily labeled an antisocial nerd and rightfully so. (that or every person you know is a lunatic D.A.R.E. cultist.) It's not some holier than thou status thing like you're making it out to be, it's basic social networking that nearly every single person alive does. Unless you went to some sort of fucking catholic boarding school and are currently on track to becoming the most pure and innocent reverend to grace this earth you probably had a way to get alcohol or smokes if you wanted them. It's not like I'm saying little Jimmy Johnson has a friend and thus he's set up for meth, coke and heroin. It's fucking alcohol and smokes, and maybe pot.

[QUOTE=draugur;48307175]If you honestly can't tell me one person you knew in school that you could probably have obtained drugs from or would have set you on the right path for if you asked then you clearly didn't ever talk to a single person in school, yes you would be easily labeled an antisocial nerd and rightfully so. It's not some holier than thou status thing like you're making it out to be, it's basic social networking that nearly every single person alive does. Unless you went to some sort of fucking catholic boarding school and are currently on track to becoming the most pure and innocent reverend to grace this earth you probably had a way to get alcohol or smokes if you wanted them.[/QUOTE] I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about how many times I did drugs in high school or drank alcohol with you but I know for a fact that buying weed and ecstasy is a lot easier than buying alcohol due to it not being regulated. Most of age people that I know recognize buying booze for kids like you is a risky ass move due to high potential of getting caught. But with that being said growing up in different areas (city, country, suburbs, crime, etc.) presents different challenges and access to illicit substances/booze. So just because you had an easy time getting some dumbass to buy booze for you underage doesn't mean it's the same for everyone and definitely doesn't mean that someone is an "antisocial nerd" because they couldn't.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48307288]I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about how many times I did drugs in high school or drank alcohol with you but I know for a fact that buying weed and ecstasy is a lot easier than buying alcohol due to it not being regulated. [/QUOTE] Okay good, because I'm not trying to have one? Who cares? [quote] Most of age people that I know recognize buying booze for kids like you is a risky ass move [/quote] Except it carries less of a sentence than pot or ecstasy. Getting booze for kids is a class-2 misdemeanor if they're 18 or over and a class-1 if they're under. Meaning the charge is 30 days and a small fine or 1 year and a $1000 fine usually. If the minor uses a fake ID (not the easiest thing to get I'll admit but it's not super hard these days either), there are no charges that will/can be placed on the seller. Selling pot comes with a minimum of one year in PRISON and $1000 for simple possession of ANY amount of the substance. That's the same as knowingly selling alcohol to a kid under 18 simply for having it. Selling it gives you up to 5 years and $250k generally since I doubt anyone selling to kids is moving over 50kg, but it goes up from there. Again, these are also in a prison, not a jail and that's a very key distinction. The risks of selling alcohol or pot are just about the same really. There's honestly less of a risk for alcohol because if you, as a legal purchasing adult, are caught with it in your car or something you're not breaking any laws usually. The largest problem is if you get caught during the exchange with a minor or the minor snitched. And lets be honest, that is a risk you're going to be taking either way.

[QUOTE=draugur;48307175]If you honestly can't tell me one person you knew in school that you could probably have obtained drugs from or would have set you on the right path for if you asked then you clearly didn't ever talk to a single person in school, yes you would be easily labeled an antisocial nerd and rightfully so. (that or every person you know is a lunatic D.A.R.E. cultist.)[/QUOTE] cringe [editline]28th July 2015[/editline] I dunno maybe the American "socializing" is different than socializing over here but we didn't spend our school days together talking about drugs. Hell there was one or two guys in our class who smoked tobacco and we thought they were edgy as fuck.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;48309103]cringe [editline]28th July 2015[/editline] I dunno maybe the American "socializing" is different than socializing over here but we didn't spend our school days together talking about drugs. Hell there was one or two guys in our class who smoked tobacco and we thought they were edgy as fuck.[/QUOTE] Portugal sounds nice. American socializing, at least here in the Midwest from my experience, revolves pretty much around competition and showing off. Just in terms of drugs, there's a lot of drinking, "I can drink more than you and have been drinking for longer than you have"; there's a lot of smoking (pot now, since cigarettes have gone on their way out), "I've smoked for longer than you and know more about it than you do" (and a lot of elitism against people who smoke cigarettes isn't uncommon anymore either); etc. Again, that's just with drugs. Everyone here is trying to one-up everybody else at anything and everything: cars, bodybuilding and exercise, sports, church... and when it comes to Facebook, everyone tries to make themselves seem as interesting as they can and get as much attention as they can. It sucks. There aren't many old-fashioned people anymore who don't give a shit about any of that and just go out and live. There's a few places left out there though where this isn't the case, and there's people out there who choose to live like people used to. You just have to go out and find them, and finding them can be hard. When it comes to edginess, we revolve around it in a lot of ways.

[QUOTE=wickedplayer494;48302262]The less people getting cancer and spreading it around, the better.[/QUOTE] Cancer doesn't spread as an airborne illness, it can be hereditary, though.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;48309103]cringe [editline]28th July 2015[/editline] I dunno maybe the American "socializing" is different than socializing over here but we didn't spend our school days together talking about drugs. Hell there was one or two guys in our class who smoked tobacco and we thought they were edgy as fuck.[/QUOTE] You're lucky then because here we've got a pretty large drug problem. People wanna be "cool" or "grown up" so they do what the adults do. People live shit as fuck lives and what do they turn to? Drugs. And yeah Govna is right American socializing is all about people just trying to 1-up each other, only small groups of friends don't have that going on, but even then the usual is trash talking people not in that group so it's no different. There are people that aren't like that, but they're not super common in any way. It's hopeful to wish that this law could have any impact on teen smoking, but it's ignorant to think it will in my eyes. Teen smoking is already on the decline simply because it's now cool to not smoke. The anti-smoking information campaigns are doing a good job and have done more than an arbitrary age restriction ever will. [editline]28th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Wolfgirl1515;48309651]Cancer doesn't spread as an airborne illness, it can be hereditary, though.[/QUOTE] Second hand smoke, but I get what you're saying, he could have worded it way better.

[QUOTE=Bradyns;48302249]Just do what we did in Australia... Tax the absolutely fuck out of it to the point that you need a successful small business to support your addiction.[/QUOTE] Or do what we did in Singapore. Ban a fuck load of areas for the smokers to smoke that it might as well be a nationwide ban on smoking. Just to name a few examples of banned smoking areas: -All common areas including: Linkways from bus stops to residential blocks Void decks Corridors Staircases Stairwells Multi-purpose halls Covered walkways and linkways All pedestrian bridges 5 metres from the edge of bus stops Hospital outdoor compounds [editline]28th July 2015[/editline] Also, breaking any of these laws mean a minimum fine of $200 to a maximum of $1000.

[QUOTE=iAmaNewb;48312961]Or do what we did in Singapore. Ban a fuck load of areas for the smokers to smoke that it might as well be a nationwide ban on smoking. Just to name a few examples of banned smoking areas: -All common areas including: Linkways from bus stops to residential blocks Void decks Corridors Staircases Stairwells Multi-purpose halls Covered walkways and linkways All pedestrian bridges 5 metres from the edge of bus stops Hospital outdoor compounds [editline]28th July 2015[/editline] Also, breaking any of these laws mean a minimum fine of $200 to a maximum of $1000.[/QUOTE] That's on the rise in the US. Banned from smoking in all public areas, food establishments and within a 100 foot perimeter of a lot of buildings. Of course, everyone ignore them though because the police honestly have better things to do than measure a smoker 50 feet from the entrance of a building than 100.