Secret Service blocks #BlackLivesMatter protestors at Clinton event
102 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BFG9000;48455247]Alright, fair enough.
Still, I think that we should have voter ID laws just out of principle. Nothing too fancy, just confirm that you are eligible to vote and stuff. I mean, what would voting be worth if the possibility was left open to vote multiple times or vote as a non-citizen? It could be exploited at any point and we wouldn't be any the wiser. As for voting absentee, I think that for the most part is comparatively secure because it's hard to tell who is getting an absentee ballot and where it is being sent, so it's not like those are at any risk of being intercepted.
Like really, even if something can already happen or doesn't happen that much, why make it easier? Sure it might make it easier for some people to vote but I feel like those people are a minority in the same way fraudsters are. It's not that hard to verify yourself with the state and get an ID, really.
Of course, these ID laws could be reformed to be more efficient but that's a topic for another day.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but voting ID laws are just flat out racist and classist.
Here's a simple equation for you.
Many Americans do not have an ID + Voting is a guaranteed right = Voter ID laws are discriminatory and illegal.
[b]There is no proof that this is even an issue in America.[/b]
[QUOTE=Antdawg;48454821]Who said I was for no regulation and no anti-trust laws? And you know how you said the European system works? Sweden has a top corporate tax rate of 22%. And who said anything about tax breaks to the rich and powerful? I didn't advocate for that. I even said tax breaks should be given to the working class and personal capital gains should be revised. Tax cuts for companies aren't tax cuts for the rich.[/QUOTE]
Because ultimately Corporations have more power than the American citizen as of right now and so they have a social and political obligation to not abuse it as it only harms them and the American people in the process.
[editline]14th August 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=GamerKiwi;48455866]But voting is a right.
Therefore, any requirements to vote are also a right.
In order for a voter ID law to not infringe on people's rights, it would have to also make ID a right for every single citizen. It cost me $40 to get my ID (Not a driver's license, just photo ID), and that essentially means that if I had no ID and wanted to vote, I'd have to pay $40 in order to vote, which is a poll tax in my eyes.[/QUOTE]
Voting as a right is actually misconception; we don't actually have a right to vote. The states do, however its become the most popular method to allow Citizens the right to vote for representation.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;48455909]I'm sorry but voting ID laws are just flat out racist and classist.
Here's a simple equation for you.
Many Americans do not have an ID + Voting is a guaranteed right = Voter ID laws are discriminatory and illegal.
[b]There is no proof that this is even an issue in America.[/b][/QUOTE]
Voter ID laws are neither racist nor classist. Anyone can get an ID. You need one for so many things in the US it's ridiculous to suggest that requiring one to cast a vote for president is somehow discriminatory against anyone other than someone who is not eligible to receive an ID (i.e. a non-citizen).
I'll say this again: [B]Anyone can get an ID.[/B] There is [B]nothing[/B], a total of [B]zero things[/B] preventing you or anyone else who's eligible from obtaining an ID. Is there a fee? Pay it. You need an ID in the US to do almost anything. And that still isn't racist or classist.
The classist argument I could almost accept as at least being a valid concern if I thought you weren't just blindly picking -ists to tack on to something you don't like just because. But in no way is requiring an ID to vote [I]racist[/I]. Can you tell me which states have laws preventing blacks from getting IDs?
[quote]You need an ID in the US to do almost anything. And that still isn't racist or classist.[/quote]
Bullshit. I got my ID renewed a few days ago, and it expired back in 2012. I'd never gotten it renewed because I'd never run into a situation where I'd needed to. When I did get it renewed I had to wait at the DMV for 3 hours and pay $40. Poor people don't have that kind of time or money to spend, and even if they do, it's a deterrent, a deterrent that disproportionately affects a certain class and a certain political party (as the lower class have the least money and least time to spend), which means it's a poison to democracy.
It's no coincidence that people that think that Voter ID laws are needed "out of principle" are overwhelmingly Republicans. It "solves" a problem that doesn't exist and causes an even bigger problem (but it's a problem that Republicans benefit from). Pragmatically that makes it a bad idea, and supporting it "out of principle" is a bullshit excuse for something that distorts democracy in your party's favor.
There should be absolutely no deterrent to voting whatsoever. As helix said, time and money are the price many people pay for not having an ID. This form of "voting fraud" isn't an issue, it's an attempt by the GOP to skew the voting populous in their favor.
Some of us don't have ANY money to spare, Grenadiac, I'm a college student on a very tight budget. I have 20 dollars in my bank account and no savings, my financial aid doesn't come in for another 3 weeks and I still pay for food, electricity, rent, cable. Getting an ID requires money.
It is not a healthy democracy when there are monetary and time constraints put on one's ability to vote.
[quote]The classist argument I could almost accept as at least being a valid concern if I thought you weren't just blindly picking -ists to tack on to something you don't like just because. But in no way is requiring an ID to vote [I]racist[/I]. Can you tell me which states have laws preventing blacks from getting IDs?[/quote]
It's racist because the largest demographic of people that don't have ID's are the same people who have consistently been democratic voters for the last X amount of decades, African Americans. Does that not strike you as odd at all that this universally Republican platform which has never even been proven to have any affect on elections would only majorly affect demographics of people who primarily vote against their party?
[editline]14th August 2015[/editline]
I'll say it again though.
[B]There is no proof that this is even an issue in America[/B]
Driver's license counts as ID, doesn't it? In Texas it does. Don't you have a license?
I'm voting for Sanders so I'm not speaking from the position of a Republican conservative. I just don't understand how you can not have any form of ID and still be able to function in this country. I have to show mine regularly. Hell, they asked to see it when I was enrolling for classes in college.
Would you be opposed to it still if IDs were free? I don't know if there's a voter fraud problem - there's not really a way to measure it, either, so a preventative measure doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48458753]Driver's license counts as ID, doesn't it? In Texas it does. Don't you have a license?
I'm voting for Sanders so I'm not speaking from the position of a Republican conservative. I just don't understand how you can not have any form of ID and still be able to function in this country. I have to show mine regularly. Hell, they asked to see it when I was enrolling for classes in college.
Would you be opposed to it still if IDs were free? I don't know if there's a voter fraud problem - there's not really a way to measure it, either, so a preventative measure doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.[/QUOTE]
First off, not everyone has driver's license (live in a place like NYC and tell me how much of a necessity a driver's license is), and [B]I would still be against it because it isn't even an issue.[/B] Free IDs would cost an enormous amount of money to ensure the entire 300,000,000 (realize that for your proposed system to work we would have to update ALL IDs, including those that haven't even voted for decades) Americans had non-expired IDs at voting time for something that [B]isn't even an issue[/B]. There has never been a trustworthy statistic demonstrating this form of voting fraud, we don't create preventative measures for things that don't even exist.
[QUOTE=Swilly;48458097]
Voting as a right is actually misconception; we don't actually have a right to vote. The states do, however its become the most popular method to allow Citizens the right to vote for representation.[/QUOTE]
It's still not good to put any sort of obstacle in the way of voting. The government should make it as easy and convenient as possible to vote, so unless there's any sort of evidence of significant amounts of voter fraud, then ID shouldn't be required unless it is made free and trivial to acquire.
And poll taxes being illegal is not a misconception. And in my eyes, if you must purchase ID that costs money in order to vote, that's no different than making someone pay to vote. Therefore, free ID or no ID.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;48458794]First off, not everyone has driver's license (live in a place like NYC and tell me how much of a necessity a driver's license is), and [B]I would still be against it because it isn't even an issue.[/B] Free IDs would cost an enormous amount of money to ensure the entire 300,000,000 (realize that for your proposed system to work we would have to update ALL IDs, including those that haven't even voted for decades) Americans had non-expired IDs at voting time for something that [B]isn't even an issue[/B]. There has never been a trustworthy statistic demonstrating this form of voting fraud, we don't create preventative measures for things that don't even exist.[/QUOTE]
Why? Why would such a system need to make sure every single person has an ID even if they don't want it/care to vote?
A voting eligible ID should be freely and easily available to everyone, but it shouldn't be required that every person in the country who could vote has one; if they want it, then they should be able to get it easily, nothing more.
And personally I think it's incredibly stupid that anyone can walk into a voting station, give any name they like, and vote in some places. It makes no sense whatsoever that there are no checks or safeguards in place to prevent fraud, regardless of it historically has been an issue or not. It's the mindset of "nothing bad has happened yet, better to wait for something to go wrong rather than proactively reduce the possibility in the first place".
I mean, stores can (or are required to) card people buying beer/cigarettes because what people put in their own body is such a concern, but no we can't have that when it comes to electing the people who run the entire country.
[QUOTE=GamerKiwi;48461294]It's still not good to put any sort of obstacle in the way of voting. The government should make it as easy and convenient as possible to vote, so unless there's any sort of evidence of significant amounts of voter fraud, then ID shouldn't be required unless it is made free and trivial to acquire.
And poll taxes being illegal is not a misconception. And in my eyes, if you must purchase ID that costs money in order to vote, that's no different than making someone pay to vote. Therefore, free ID or no ID.[/QUOTE]
I'm just saying; our right to vote is basically because its the easiest and least riot inducing method of choosing senators and congressmen.
Of course we still give those votes to electors who can say, "Fuck it; I'm going with the other candidate."
The US Constitution is one of the weirdest democratic documents because its incredibly vague for future proofing and it actually was set up to regulate the democratic process. It is probably one of the most undemocratic documents ever written in human history just because its meant to regulate a democracy.
[QUOTE=Explosions;48439988]This is one of the crappiest analogies ever.[/QUOTE]
Cal lit what you want, but he is correct. He showed weakness to some hecklers, to the media they could easily portray that as weakness to anyone. That will be used against him by Hillary, like it or not.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;48455909]I'm sorry but voting ID laws are just flat out racist and classist.
Here's a simple equation for you.
Many Americans do not have an ID + Voting is a guaranteed right = Voter ID laws are discriminatory and illegal.
[b]There is no proof that this is even an issue in America.[/b][/QUOTE]
Yes but all Americans have a social security number, even non-citizens like permanent residents and foreign workers. There could be a system in place where you give them your SSN and they can confirm your eligibility to vote. Voting ID laws are not inherently racist or classist, but they are discriminatory and they should be. Discriminatory against people who aren't supposed to vote, that is. You might argue that it doesn't happen often but in local voting, every little ballot could matter.
ID laws definitely need to be streamlined but to say that they shouldn't exist is just outright counter intuitive to the whole concept of voting.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;48454219]Why do you think corporations should be binded into some kind of social responsibility? [/QUOTE]
Because history has shown that when they become disconnected from social responsibility (ie hoarding wealth instead of investing it back into the economy) the economy toppled over like a 30-man game of Twister?
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