[URL=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1st5c9/we_are_devs_of_project_m_a_mod_for_super_smash/ce15a2j?context=5]reminder that they could've gone the open source route and someone would've picked up the slack but they decided that no that's too dangerous[/URL]
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;49227185][URL=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1st5c9/we_are_devs_of_project_m_a_mod_for_super_smash/ce15a2j?context=5]reminder that they could've gone the open source route and someone would've picked up the slack but they decided that no that's too dangerous[/URL][/QUOTE]
Yeah, Project M would have benefited from it.
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;49227185][URL=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1st5c9/we_are_devs_of_project_m_a_mod_for_super_smash/ce15a2j?context=5]reminder that they could've gone the open source route and someone would've picked up the slack but they decided that no that's too dangerous[/URL][/QUOTE]
Now all we need is some god-tier reverse engineer to disassemble the mod, figure it out, and plaster comments everywhere
Or they could just release the damn source, that'd be nice too
[editline]2nd December 2015[/editline]
From the sound of it though it's kind of a hack job internally. Obviously it has to be on some level considering what it's doing (which is really impressive), but couldn't they write a wrapper library to handle the lowest level details? That would make higher level changes easier to implement for them AND for other devs. Dunno how feasible that would be, considering I've never reverse engineered a program before, but it seems like the way to go based on everything I've ever learned about programming.
Could a better programmer chime in on this please?
-snip, bad theory-
as long as its an independent game it wouldn't be a derivative work unless they used SSB code
[QUOTE=Map in a box;49227960]as long as its an independent game it wouldn't be a derivative work unless they used SSB code[/QUOTE]
Yes, you cannot sue for knowledge.
A new chapters starts I suppose. Here's hoping their project isn't overshadowed by Project M.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;49227960]as long as its an independent game it wouldn't be a derivative work unless they used SSB code[/QUOTE]
The issue if i understand this is that they can legally argue that all of their code is derivitave by virtue of being based on unauthorized deconstruction and modding of a copyrighted product to create a commerical product, especially if they were made at the same time
Mods are in a legal grey area, commercial products aren't
[quote=Wikipedia]Reverse engineering of computer software in the US often falls under both contract law as a breach of contract as well as any other relevant laws. This is because most EULA's (end user license agreement) specifically prohibit it, and U.S. courts have ruled that if such terms are present, they override the copyright law which expressly permits it (see Bowers v. Baystate Technologies).[/quote]
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;49227987]The issue if i understand this is that they can legally argue that all of their code is derivitave by virtue of being based on unauthorized deconstruction and modding of a copyrighted product to create a commerical product, especially if they were made at the same time
Mods are in a legal grey area, commercial products aren't[/QUOTE]
It is legal for them to reverse engineer and manipulate it as long as they don't release the original game
No console game that I know of has a EULA that would prevent reverse engineering.
And even if all this were the case, them stopping working on it won't matter as the fact it still exists will be bad for them and regardless its a terrible PR move for Nintendo. But I don't see this as being possible in any way for Nintendo to attack them for.
what if the were hired by Nintendo to make Smash 4 Turbo?
As a competitive Project M player, it's horribly sad news, and the current state of the community of the game is definitely in question. The current release of 3.6 is very balanced, and there isn't a necessary reason that the community around PM will die. Even so, those bi-yearly updates did give the game a sense of change, and life. I'm curious what will happen in the coming weeks. Perhaps it will even do better, now that the meta won't change every so often, and the players that disliked the patches won't have that to complain about. All I know is that it's a fun game, and I'll keep playing it.
[QUOTE=IliekBoxes;49228222]what if the were hired by Nintendo to make Smash 4 Turbo?[/QUOTE]
I don't see Nintendo making much more of an attempt to appeal to the competitive scene than they have now.
[QUOTE=Sir Colton;49228426]As a competitive Project M player, it's horribly sad news, and the current state of the community of the game is definitely in question. The current release of 3.6 is very balanced, and there isn't a necessary reason that the community around PM will die. Even so, those bi-yearly updates did give the game a sense of change, and life. I'm curious what will happen in the coming weeks. Perhaps it will even do better, now that the meta won't change every so often, and the players that disliked the patches won't have that to complain about. All I know is that it's a fun game, and I'll keep playing it.[/QUOTE]
i also play PM competitively and honestly, after the initial shock of hearing the news for the first time, i'm now optimistic about the future of the game. we can have a meta that is stabilized, and meta development can really begin to break out, with matchups being able to be analyzed without the fear of key points being affected by patches down the line. it'll also remove all the constant complaining of "x is overpowered/underpowered, it'll just get fixed in the next patch", and people can actually start developing counterplays.
still sad to see it go but i wish everyone on the PMDT the best of luck. they made what's honestly become one of my favorite games of all-time, and i hope their skills will be able to take them further.
[editline]2nd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Skerion;49225711]The Duke posted this in the SSB thread:
[t]https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12342534_10156296567475321_8887911430783848944_n.jpg?oh=3b7eec6987fc34ffb742566ddedfaebf&oe=56EC6EF9[/t][/QUOTE]
there is literally no evidence to point to this being true
[QUOTE=TheWhiteFox1;49228689]i also play PM competitively and honestly, after the initial shock of hearing the news for the first time, i'm now optimistic about the future of the game. we can have a meta that is stabilized, and meta development can really begin to break out, with matchups being able to be analyzed without the fear of key points being affected by patches down the line. it'll also remove all the constant complaining of "x is overpowered/underpowered, it'll just get fixed in the next patch", and people can actually start developing counterplays.
still sad to see it go but i wish everyone on the PMDT the best of luck. they made what's honestly become one of my favorite games of all-time, and i hope their skills will be able to take them further.
[/QUOTE]
While consistency in balance is great, the fact that 4 characters (all of which I was pretty damn hyped for mind you) will never see the light of day anymore is still an enormous kick in the balls even in the PMDT couldn't really help it.
[QUOTE=Bokito;49228762]While consistency in balance is great, the fact that 4 characters (all of which I was pretty damn hyped for mind you) will never see the light of day anymore is still an enormous kick in the balls even in the PMDT couldn't really help it.[/QUOTE]
oh well yeah of course, i'm mostly just bringing up the balance as a silver lining. not getting those characters sucks, but as a competitive player, the longevity of the game and its meta, despite this setback is what ultimately matters to me.
who knows, maybe Lyn and Knuckles will at least potentially get leaked. they were just about ready to roll out, and maybe with some balance checks the community can try to get them integrated into an "upgraded" patch.
I was really looking forward to Knuckles.
[QUOTE=TheWhiteFox1;49228689]there is literally no evidence to point to this being true[/QUOTE]
While there's nothing to verify him or what he said, [url=https://twitter.com/MrRyanMorrison/status/671943222848069632]what their attorney says does support that theory[/url]
[t]https://i.imgur.com/YlZkGNZ.png[/t]
The keyword being, "...but we want it to stay that way."
crazy stuff
I bought a Wii U with Smash 4 just a couple days ago, literally yesterday I was looking into Project M on the Wii U... it doesn't sound like they were close to getting support for the Gamecube adapter, which stinks.
Figure I'll probably hold on to my Wii for a little while yet. I liked messing around with mods (PM was my first experience modding console games) and playing as Snake. Not quite ready to let go yet, although I'll probably switch completely to Smash 4 eventually. I'm casual enough that I never thought about the balance changes, just the cool customizations.
[editline]2nd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheWhiteFox1;49228788]oh well yeah of course, i'm mostly just bringing up the balance as a silver lining. not getting those characters sucks, but as a competitive player, the longevity of the game and its meta, despite this setback is what ultimately matters to me.
who knows, maybe Lyn and Knuckles will at least potentially get leaked. they were just about ready to roll out, and maybe with some balance checks the community can try to get them integrated into an "upgraded" patch.[/QUOTE]
an ex-PM dev (he was gone before whatever caused this) has released some codes and has implied that others may similarly be willing to leak stuff
[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/NewPMDT/comments/3v5710/wiiztec_former_pmdt_ama/[/url]
[QUOTE=Map in a box;49228196]It is legal for them to reverse engineer and manipulate it as long as they don't release the original game
No console game that I know of has a EULA that would prevent reverse engineering.
And even if all this were the case, them stopping working on it won't matter as the fact it still exists will be bad for them and regardless its a terrible PR move for Nintendo. But I don't see this as being possible in any way for Nintendo to attack them for.[/QUOTE]from the Nintendo Wii EULA available at [URL="http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/info/en_na/docs.jsp"]http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/info/en_na/docs.jsp[/URL]
[t]http://imgur.com/Pbvb8PY[/t]
[URL="imgur.com/Pbvb8PY"]Link[/URL] in case the image doesn't load
[QUOTE=Corndog Ninja;49228900]crazy stuff
I bought a Wii U with Smash 4 just a couple days ago, literally yesterday I was looking into Project M on the Wii U... it doesn't sound like they were close to getting support for the Gamecube adapter, which stinks.
Figure I'll probably hold on to my Wii for a little while yet. I liked messing around with mods (PM was my first experience modding console games) and playing as Snake. Not quite ready to let go yet, although I'll probably switch completely to Smash 4 eventually. I'm casual enough that I never thought about the balance changes, just the cool customizations.
[editline]2nd December 2015[/editline]
an ex-PM dev (he was gone before whatever caused this) has released some codes and has implied that others may similarly be willing to leak stuff
[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/NewPMDT/comments/3v5710/wiiztec_former_pmdt_ama/[/url][/QUOTE]
I hope no one interprets this as warez, but you can totally rip your discs and just play them in Dolphin. In fact, it can be preferable because of HD resolutions, debugging, and extra configuration options. I play Project M with extra HD textures that are only possible through Dolphin.
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;49229130]from the Nintendo Wii EULA available at [URL="http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/info/en_na/docs.jsp"]http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/info/en_na/docs.jsp[/URL]
[t]http://imgur.com/Pbvb8PY[/t]
[URL="imgur.com/Pbvb8PY"]Link[/URL] in case the image doesn't load[/QUOTE]
thats with the wii, not the games on it.
Regardless, shrinkwrap licenses are a huge gray area and are more likely than not to not be allowed.
[QUOTE=C0linSSX;49227360]Now all we need is some god-tier reverse engineer to disassemble the mod, figure it out, and plaster comments everywhere
Or they could just release the damn source, that'd be nice too
[editline]2nd December 2015[/editline]
From the sound of it though it's kind of a hack job internally. Obviously it has to be on some level considering what it's doing (which is really impressive), but couldn't they write a wrapper library to handle the lowest level details? That would make higher level changes easier to implement for them AND for other devs. Dunno how feasible that would be, considering I've never reverse engineered a program before, but it seems like the way to go based on everything I've ever learned about programming.
Could a better programmer chime in on this please?[/QUOTE]
You can clean it up a little, and large-scale mods abstract the low-level stuff to some degree for convenience and organisation, but you do have to understand how it works to have any hope in changing functionality further.
So the main thing here is sharing knowledge and documentation. Which is a hassle in reverse engineering projects because usually that knowledge resides in the reversers' heads and documentation amounts to chat logs, a few numbers, tables and notes scribbled on Post-its in as many languages as there are reversers and project files for a reverse engineering tool that is not very collaborative and actively breaks compatibility with previous pirated copies - which is a problem because everybody pirates it because it costs a few grand and even if you have that sort of money they don't sell it to just anyone.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;49228196]It is legal for them to reverse engineer and manipulate it as long as they don't release the original game
No console game that I know of has a EULA that would prevent reverse engineering.
And even if all this were the case, them stopping working on it won't matter as the fact it still exists will be bad for them and regardless its a terrible PR move for Nintendo. But I don't see this as being possible in any way for Nintendo to attack them for.[/QUOTE]
No commercial game that I know of has a EULA that [I]doesn't[/I] prohibit reverse engineering.
For a TL;DR here's what we know. I'm also friends with a couple people from the PMDT and they refuse to say anything more, and they kept hinting at, "because it's all we CAN say".
- The PMDT was about to release a bunch of hyped up content, even having it presented and ready to release from just last week.
- Warchamp has publicly stated they will NOT be releasing further content, meaning that cease of development was obviously not on their own accord. (The PMDT would have released a final patch, or a video or something. Not a stripped website and a single blog post)
- Multiple members who were deemed "too untrustworthy" were purged right before this occurred. Meaning that it was obviously something that could NOT have been said publicly, and the binding to that agreement would more than likely have been legal.
- Their attorney is the only to come out and say an official statement. And Nintendo being that big, could easily have made them agree to come out and publicly state no legal action was taken.
- A developer build had been leaked on 4Chan some of the new content. This includes Awakening Roy skin, Lynn from FE, Knuckles, and more. This was an internal job, and no one knows who leaked the build.
- Former PMDT member wiiztec came out in a Reddit AMA said he was purged and not given a reason to why the project was ending and why he was letting go. A couple former PMDT members also flamed him in the AMA.
- PMDT member Strong Bad has said that Project WD was NOT the reason they were shutting things down. He refused to further elaborate.
From what we know, legal action is very likely. Knowing the PMDT, they would have wanted to go out big if they were shutting things down. This was not the way the PMDT wanted it to end, despite it saying that on their website. Multiple PMDT members have said they are upset with the way things turned out despite their final blog post stating that it was their decision to stop and "move on" to other projects.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/LK3v09x.png[/IMG]
Kinda weird that they're just now ceisting development on Project M rather than ending it years ago, assuming that Warchamp is telling the truth about their reason of doing so. I wonder what's up with that.
[QUOTE=Mkt778;49234246]Good. Now my friend circle can go back to playing the game normally instead of killing eachother over the damn thing.[/QUOTE]
Just because development is over does not mean people will stop playing pm, in fact, it's the best time to do so since the meta will develop further.
[QUOTE=Mkt778;49235018]... I get that, sure. I couldn't care if people continue to play it or not.
My friend group has already been torn apart by the game, though. I can only hope they return to the normal game (And to eachother)
I don't know what it was about PM but the moment we all started playing it, things became too competitive and heated and its turned them all into reschoolers.[/QUOTE]
PM for my friend circle has been a blessing, most of them aren't "advanced" players, we just enjoy PM a lot, I enjoy PM as an advanced player and they enjoy PM because for them it's basically brawl with more characters.
In fact, one of my best friends has no idea how smash works, but he enjoys playing PM ivysaur a lot.
I'm honestly kinda relieved.
I know a lot of people are upset but quite honestly I don't see what's so good about Project M after playing Smash 4. Smash 4 is superior in almost every way. The only arguable thing is that the speed of the game isn't as fast paced. Project M has just run its course. It's also in due part to the whole elitistism the Smash community has where they complain how predecessors are better than sequels. Hopefully more tournaments switch to Smash 4 now.
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;49235430]I'm honestly kinda relieved.
I know a lot of people are upset but quite honestly I don't see what's so good about Project M after playing Smash 4. Smash 4 is superior in almost every way. The only arguable thing is that the speed of the game isn't as fast paced. Project M has just run its course. It's also in due part to the whole elitistism the Smash community has where they complain how predecessors are better than sequels. Hopefully more tournaments switch to Smash 4 now.[/QUOTE]
As someone who ejoys both, PM was just designdd from the ground up to be a balanced competitive experience. Smash 4 was simplified in several ways, removing various competitive mechanics that wete big in melee. PM has more depth and serves as a nice alternative to melee, which had a daunting amount of exploits and bugs that will never be fixed. Smash 4 is just way easier, which of course is part of the appeal for some
PM is just a more deep and interesting esport than smash 4
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;49235430]I'm honestly kinda relieved.
I know a lot of people are upset but quite honestly I don't see what's so good about Project M after playing Smash 4. Smash 4 is superior in almost every way. The only arguable thing is that the speed of the game isn't as fast paced. Project M has just run its course. It's also in due part to the whole elitistism the Smash community has where they complain how predecessors are better than sequels. Hopefully more tournaments switch to Smash 4 now.[/QUOTE]
I don't see why smash 4 can't be like project m, it's not that PM/melee is hard to play, is that they are deep, so they are going to be enjoyed by advanced and casual players, in fact, my friends do not know the difference between brawl and melee, so why don't add depth? it does not hurt the game in any way.
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