Red vs. Blue Political Divide May Really Be About Young vs. Old
98 replies, posted
That's always been the core of politics. Old VS new, conservative VS liberal, red VS blue.
That's all any of this is. A struggle for change, or against it. If that sounds like a gross oversimplication, that's because it totally is. But most struggles can be melted down that way.
[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51904590]I haven't the faintest idea why kids/teens today would lean conservative. Not a fucking clue. Is it just reactionary shit to the socially liberal positions that Millennials hold? Is it because they're fucking teens and they haven't formed actual informed political ideologies yet besides whatever's anti-establishment? I know as a teen what political views I had were warped as fuck.
Like if you grow up in economically shit times, you're not supposed to have an ideology whos economic policies will make the economy even more shit lol. Doesn't add up.[/QUOTE]
They're most likely just regurgitating their parents political views which are conservative.
As a teen I was hardcore Republican and repeated whatever I heard from my father.
Then I joined Facepunch eventually and thanks to everyone here I had my head pulled from my ass.
Thanks guys, I love you.
[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51904810]Lol don't forget the classic "I'm an independent because both parties are equally shit" aka I have no idea what the fuck I believe.
Moderates fucking suck man, I hate working with them (FUCKING CENTER-RIGHT/THIRD WAY DEMS! YOU DONT GET TO CALL YOURSELF A LEFTY JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK WEED SHOULD BE LEGAL AND GAYS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MARRY! *screams in class consciousness*). I do realize that this makes me the stereotypical hardlining, obnoxious leftist cunt, however.
Now, repeat after me: profit has no place in healthcare. Health insurance companies are exploitative bourgeois middle men that increase the burden on the working class and should not be allowed to exist.[/QUOTE]
Excessive partisans strike me as not really having their own opinions. Both parties have tons of different opinions on different issues and if you just *happen* to have every single one of your views match your party there's a big chance they aren't really your own views. In general i find the "with us or against us" view to be holding back improvements to modern political discourse.
The idea of a "center" and "neutral always being better" is dumb but you have to be pretty dense not to realize how awful both political parties in the united states are these days. Strictly aligning with either is an absolutely repulsive idea to myself and many others, and if you've seen my posts on these forums you'll see i know exactly what i believe, forgive me for it being more complicated than left/right mr stereotypical hardlining leftist.
Playing for another side because you were exposed to a group of people limited to your small bubble is called "middle school behaviour".
I know it's hard to grasp for your feeble minds, but "John looks funny so I'm going to be on Jack's team instead!" is called being a little bitch that can't think for themselves.
So leaning far right because you met one group of 'sjws' just to spite them means you have no self-control. There's a whole 'nother world out there besides your pathetic town, so seeking self-confirmation bias and modelling your political views off of that is utterly idiotic.
[editline]3rd March 2017[/editline]
Then there comes the issue of how sensitive of a little bitch you are.
What do you define as an 'sjw'?
Is it everyone in your women's studies class?
Is it anyone with a tumblr account?
Is it anyone who slightly disagrees with you?
Unless they're impeding your ability to obtain an education and secure your future, you're just acting like a little bitch.
I'm sorry, but daddy's money won't protect you from the criticisms of your peers.
If you act like one, people will call you one.
-snip-
[QUOTE=HappyCompy;51904810]Lol don't forget the classic "I'm an independent because both parties are equally shit" aka I have no idea what the fuck I believe.
Moderates fucking suck man, I hate working with them (FUCKING CENTER-RIGHT/THIRD WAY DEMS! YOU DONT GET TO CALL YOURSELF A LEFTY JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK WEED SHOULD BE LEGAL AND GAYS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MARRY! *screams in class consciousness*). I do realize that this makes me the stereotypical hardlining, obnoxious leftist cunt, however.
Now, repeat after me: profit has no place in healthcare. Health insurance companies are exploitative bourgeois middle men that increase the burden on the working class and should not be allowed to exist.[/QUOTE]
Wow. My brain is slowly dripping from my nose after reading this. Can you put whatever you were trying to say into a cohesive argument? Because you're very triggered and sound absolutely mental for no apparent reason.
You weren't joking, were you?
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51905819]They're most likely just regurgitating their parents political views which are conservative.
As a teen I was hardcore Republican and repeated whatever I heard from my father.
Then I joined Facepunch eventually and thanks to everyone here I had my head pulled from my ass.
Thanks guys, I love you.[/QUOTE]
If you've decided most of your political views based off of what you see people saying what is great on FP... thsts not intelligence, thats just a different way to put your head in your butte. :v:
[QUOTE=evilweazel;51906311]If you've decided most of your political views based off of what you see people saying what is great on FP... thsts not intelligence, thats just a different way to put your head in your butte. :v:[/QUOTE]
I've seen some wonderful posts on FP and on other places of the internet that have convinced me to hold new views or gain new insight onto a topic.
I don't see how you can say it's just putting your head into butt in a different way.
[QUOTE=Kagu;51905993]Playing for another side because you were exposed to a group of people limited to your small bubble is called "middle school behaviour".
I know it's hard to grasp for your feeble minds, but "John looks funny so I'm going to be on Jack's team instead!" is called being a little bitch that can't think for themselves.
So leaning far right because you met one group of 'sjws' just to spite them means you have no self-control. There's a whole 'nother world out there besides your pathetic town, so seeking self-confirmation bias and modelling your political views off of that is utterly idiotic.
[editline]3rd March 2017[/editline]
Then there comes the issue of how sensitive of a little bitch you are.
What do you define as an 'sjw'?
Is it everyone in your women's studies class?
Is it anyone with a tumblr account?
Is it anyone who slightly disagrees with you?
Unless they're impeding your ability to obtain an education and secure your future, you're just acting like a little bitch.
I'm sorry, but daddy's money won't protect you from the criticisms of your peers.
If you act like one, people will call you one.[/QUOTE]
I do feel like the left kinda' had a REALLY big 'crying wolf' problem for like 2-3 years before the election rolled around, sadly, and I think that's part of the reason we're stuck in the situation we're in right now. I mean hell you [I]still[/I] see it with the pewdiepie and Jon Jaffari shit, where there's this legion of people who are ready to lash out at a perceived political slight from random-ass people and call them nazis or racists and shit.
What happens then is that people who are [I]actually[/I] malicious, who [I]actually[/I] want to push legislation that harms minorities get into power, and when you try to make a point about it, to call them out for what they are, people just shrug and say "Oh, so they're fascists just like Jontron eh? Well they must not be so bad then lol." I mean, it's a fable for a reason. The more you use a word frivolously, the less power it has, and they've destroyed words that used to hold the power of making whatever they were applied to taboo on random bullshit like people wearing silly shirts and the like.
I think that people who've allowed SJWs (as defined by people who'll go on the political attack over incredibly minor issues or statements of so much as center-right political opinion) to turn them to the right are in the wrong, but I also must admit that those people who I'd define with the term above are at least partially responsible, because they seemingly decided that they're right forever about everything, that people who are against them and WRONG forever need to be punished and shamed for it, and that they didn't have to argue in good faith because of these two things.
I want the left to regain its fucking sense of humor, y'know the one we had during the bush administration? I mean fuck me I never thought I'd say it but the internet right really does have the internet left beat on the whole 'having a good time' front and that's just kinda' sad considering we used to think of the conservatives as the scowling religious grandmothers who couldn't bear the antics of the youth and don't 'understand' their humor.
[QUOTE=Mattk50;51905876]Excessive partisans strike me as not really having their own opinions. Both parties have tons of different opinions on different issues and if you just *happen* to have every single one of your views match your party there's a big chance they aren't really your own views. In general i find the "with us or against us" view to be holding back improvements to modern political discourse.
The idea of a "center" and "neutral always being better" is dumb but you have to be pretty dense not to realize how awful both political parties in the united states are these days. Strictly aligning with either is an absolutely repulsive idea to myself and many others, and if you've seen my posts on these forums you'll see i know exactly what i believe, forgive me for it being more complicated than left/right mr stereotypical hardlining leftist.[/QUOTE]
Nobody should be a DemBot or a RepubliBot. I loathe the two party system and attack Democrats almost as often as I attack Republicans (Dems are generally just less shit than Repubs, but they're still pretty shit). At no point did I say that I loathe people whose political beliefs don't perfectly match either the Democratic or Republican platforms, I said I loathe working with know-nothing "independents" (vs well informed independents) and flaky "moderates". I work within my local dem party and I have to deal with these types often.
When it comes down to it, though, it does come down to left/center/right. It's a sliding scale that's relative to the country/society you live in and you are somewhere on it whether you think so or not, depending on your beliefs. You don't get to make up your own metric in the name of enlightened edginess. It seems like you either misunderstood my post or took my it as a personal insult or something lol.
I'm not going to go through your posts to try to piece together your ideology (what lol?), why don't you just tell us instead?
[editline]3rd March 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=LSK;51906281]Wow. My brain is slowly dripping from my nose after reading this. Can you put whatever you were trying to say into a cohesive argument? Because you're very triggered and sound absolutely mental for no apparent reason.
You weren't joking, were you?[/QUOTE]
Yes, my post was laced with satire. I obviously don't actually [B]hate[/B] people who are more moderate than me, in reality they provide a sort of check or counter-weight to some of my more radical ideas, but their resistance to challenging the status quo irks me. Dead serious about health insurance companies being exploitative cunts, though.
for the record, I'm not even that radical. I'm a leftist(for an American), yeah, but I'm not FAR left. I'm a SocDem who believes that social democracy is objectively the best form of government that exists currently and I'm passionate about pushing policies that will make it a reality in the United States. If that means hurting some free-market feelings, so be it. It's sad that believing in social democracy in America makes you literally Mao, but SocDems are considered center-left revisionists in Europe lol.
I guarantee you there's anarchists and communists on fp who's beliefs make me look like a squishy moderate in comparison.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51906477]I've seen some wonderful posts on FP and on other places of the internet that have convinced me to hold new views or gain new insight onto a topic.
I don't see how you can say it's just putting your head into butt in a different way.[/QUOTE]
People like to joke about Facepunch "hurr gasmasks, autism, rust kids, virgins, hivemind" but I've interacted with hundreds of people from different countries, and thousands of people with different viewpoints and life experiences, something that I definitely would never get otherwise growing up in Cousinfuck, Kentucky. It's been pretty valuable.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51906700]I still dislike religion. I think it is a cheap emotional crutch that leads to bad critical thinking skills, and I hope that thought gains more popularity in the future.
I can't recall atheism ever being a "fad." It is a growing trend. One I consider to be good.[/QUOTE]
Calling atheism a fad or edgy is just a counter-counter culture to shut people down. If you "grew out" of atheism you were probably never really an atheist to begin with or you are easily swayed back to what your parents taught you. It's pretty insulting to hear stuff like that when I struggled with being an atheist as a kid and I had absolutely no one to talk to about it, I was told atheists were evil and went to hell, and even on the internet they are often ridiculed as pseudo-intellectuals thanks to fedora tipping fucks.
Is it really that hard to simply educate yourself on the issues from reliable sources and form well-informed opinions that stand up to scrutiny
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;51906720]People like to joke about Facepunch "hurr gasmasks, autism, rust kids, virgins, hivemind" but I've interacted with hundreds of people from different countries, and thousands of people with different viewpoints and life experiences, something that I definitely would never get otherwise growing up in Cousinfuck, Kentucky. It's been pretty valuable.[/QUOTE]
A semi-obscure-but-popular internet forum is going to be populated with different people than a small town in the south.
Real deep convincing insight here.
[QUOTE=Stroheim;51906748]A semi-obscure-but-popular internet forum is going to be populated with different people than a small town in the south. Real deep insight here.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, it's not much but it was all I had. Really appreciate someone who understands :)
[QUOTE=bunguer;51906151]You do sound like an obnoxious leftist cunt. How can you blame people for not choosing a party/side when there's so much shit around the current political environment?
We should have a better voting system that actually makes having independents something that could make a difference, because as things stand it's a lose-lose situation.
The parties don't even make an actual effort to be better because they know they don't have any decent competition, so fuck off with your opinion and choose your enemies better because moderates, if anything, can think on their own and have the ability to evaluate policies without feeling they owe something to someone.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to, ironically, don my centrist hat here and say that there are merits to both sides of the argument here. On one hand, there isn't shame in being a moderate, centrist, or in not aligning yourself with a party (although all 3 are not congruent -- I don't align with either party in the US but I'm a staunch leftist) when you have nuanced views on a number of issues that reach across the aisle, but I think that the issue that people like HappyCompy have is with people who said (and say) "both parties are [I]equally[/I] shit" when it was plainly obvious that one was worse than the other. It's a total cop out that absolves you of any critical thought. Having various substantiated views and believing in moderation and compromise is fine, where the issue lies is with "independents" who have no opinions and take their position of total apathy with arrogance and smug self-satisfaction. I think that both the DNC and the RNC have major problems, but let's not act for a second that we didn't know who the greater threat was (hint: he's sitting in the oval office).
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;51906720]Calling atheism a fad or edgy is just a counter-counter culture to shut people down. [B]If you "grew out" of atheism you were probably never really an atheist to begin with or you are easily swayed back to what your parents taught you.[/B] It's pretty insulting to hear stuff like that when I struggled with being an atheist as a kid and I had absolutely no one to talk to about it, I was told atheists were evil and went to hell, and even on the internet they are often ridiculed as pseudo-intellectuals thanks to fedora tipping fucks.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51906700]I still dislike religion. [B] I think it is a cheap emotional crutch that leads to bad critical thinking skills[/B], and I hope that thought gains more popularity in the future.
I can't recall atheism ever being a "fad." It is a growing trend. One I consider to be good.[/QUOTE]
I'm still atheist, but what I was talking about was the hyper militant anti-religion stuff - people of my generation who would protest churches and harass priests and go burning bibles and shit like that. There was a general feeling that anyone who was religious was inherently an idiot and not worthy of credulity, they were all bigots, etc. As I and others grew older though we quickly discovered this wasn't the case, that plenty of religious people can be perfectly tolerant and intelligent.
I have no doubt that plenty of people had genuine struggles to be atheist in religious environs and families, but if you actually still think that religious people are inherently relying on a 'cheap emotional crutch' then you're the one who needs to rethink your highly simplified view of religious people.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51906835]I'm going to, ironically, don my centrist hat here and say that there are merits to both sides of the argument here. On one hand, there isn't shame in being a moderate, centrist, or in not aligning yourself with a party (although all 3 are not congruent -- I don't align with either party in the US but I'm a staunch leftist) when you have nuanced views on a number of issues that reach across the aisle, but I think that the issue that people like HappyCompy have is with people who said (and say) "both parties are [I]equally[/I] shit" when it was plainly obvious that one was worse than the other. It's a total cop out that absolves you of any critical thought. Having various substantiated views and believing in moderation and compromise is fine, where the issue lies is with "independents" who have no opinions and take their position of total apathy with arrogance and smug self-satisfaction. I think that both the DNC and the RNC have major problems, but let's not act for a second that we didn't know who the greater threat was (hint: he's sitting in the oval office).[/QUOTE]
Could not agree more.
[QUOTE=1239the;51906842]I'm still atheist, but what I was talking about was the hyper militant anti-religion stuff - people of my generation who would protest churches and harass priests and go burning bibles and shit like that. There was a general feeling that anyone who was religious was inherently an idiot and not worthy of credulity, they were all bigots, etc. As I and others grew older though we quickly discovered this wasn't the case, that plenty of religious people can be perfectly tolerant and intelligent.
I have no doubt that plenty of people had genuine struggles to be atheist in religious environs and families, but if you actually still think that religious people are inherently relying on a 'cheap emotional crutch' then you're the one who needs to rethink your highly simplified view of religious people.[/QUOTE]
It's not a cheap emotional crutch, it's a nuanced, sociologically complex emotional crutch.
Well fuck me for having beliefs then. I'll join the nuanced, sociologically complex emotional crutch users club and further lead us to the downfall of civilization because I made the mistake of believing in something different than other people who don't believe in anything.
Well to be honest I wouldn't doubt people would rather have someone whose younger and will dictate their choices and actions based on the long term effects of those actions that they will be alive to witness and be a part of down the road. This, as opposed to the current trend of old schmucks who seem content with setting the world on fire and dying within the next 10 to 15 years and not being around for the consequences of their stupid choices.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51907339]I agee, it is a lot deeper than I made it out to be. By cheap, I mean I consider it to be the "easy way out" to a lot of complex questions that the majority of people struggle with, but have to answer and deal with.
Like teaching abstinence only sex education instead of actually teaching about sex.[/QUOTE]
The way I see it, when you get down to the most basic layer, religion and spirituality is just someone saying, " this is how want things to be."
I try to stay away from debates about religion. As long as it has a neutral/positive effect on people and doesn't get in the way of class struggle it's best left alone (imo).
I'll be the first to denounce Christian/Muslim conservatism and their attendant regressive views on women, homosexuality and climate change, though.
People like Pope Francis are absolutely positive religious leaders. Pope Francis is the fucking man.
as a guy whose only real moral is 'create the highest viable balance of autonomy', religion is okay when it doesn't infringe on anyone else. heavy spirituality isn't a choice i agree with, but it's not my choice for anyone but me.
is ageism a thing?
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51909114]is ageism a thing?[/QUOTE]
in a semantic sense, yes
in a 'real' sense, i don't feel like untangling the mess of biology + philosophy that is required to declare ageism a 'thing'.
[QUOTE=evilweazel;51906311]If you've decided most of your political views based off of what you see people saying what is great on FP... thsts not intelligence, thats just a different way to put your head in your butte. :v:[/QUOTE]
nah it's called seeing from a different perspective.
There are many different belief groups here on FP, from socialists to libertarians and everything in between. The beliefs I had were challenged and allowed me to grow and develop as an individual.
Before the only information I received was from my father who would call Democrats dirty communist welfare queens and seeing as that was the only information I had I believed it for a while.
[QUOTE=Smug Bastard;51906740]Is it really that hard to simply educate yourself on the issues from reliable sources and form well-informed opinions that stand up to scrutiny[/QUOTE]
When you don't know anybody outside the internet who actually have reliable sources or well-informed opinions then yes, it really is that hard.
Especially when you live in conservative suburbs.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51906835]I'm going to, ironically, don my centrist hat here and say that there are merits to both sides of the argument here. On one hand, there isn't shame in being a moderate, centrist, or in not aligning yourself with a party (although all 3 are not congruent -- I don't align with either party in the US but I'm a staunch leftist) when you have nuanced views on a number of issues that reach across the aisle, but I think that the issue that people like HappyCompy have is with people who said (and say) "both parties are [I]equally[/I] shit" when it was plainly obvious that one was worse than the other. It's a total cop out that absolves you of any critical thought. Having various substantiated views and believing in moderation and compromise is fine, where the issue lies is with "independents" who have no opinions and take their position of total apathy with arrogance and smug self-satisfaction. I think that both the DNC and the RNC have major problems, but let's not act for a second that we didn't know who the greater threat was (hint: he's sitting in the oval office).[/QUOTE]
I'm inclined to disagree. I think Trump was a significantly worse candidate than Hillary, but when you look at the actual principles each party holds, there's pretty much the same types of thought traps and cognitive dissonances on either side, they just have different flavors to it. On top of that, two of the most important issues to me (tax cuts and the 4th amendment) are on opposite ends of the spectrum, which makes it pretty easy to be equally uncomfortable with either party.
Just look at how each side treats conspiracy theories for instance. Conservatives (and Libertarians) are extremely distrustful of government, and are quick to believe in governmental conspiracies without a second thought. Lots of their thinking tends to be driven by fear of eventual fascism. But if you look at Liberals, they're just as likely to believe in corporate conspiracies. Over and over I see the absurd notion here that big companies are made up of these evil rich white men plotting to take over the world, using "The American Dream" as a delusion to keep the lower class obedient. It's the same garbage, all that changes is who you're mad at.
These generational differences between Millenials and Generation Z are really hitting home for me.
My brother has been leaning hard to the right lately and it's terrifying.
I was born in 95 and he was born in 97 but was held back a year.
We're polar opposites in every sense of the word. I'm academically inclined, he's inclined to lift weights, I'm tall and thin, he's short and frequently chubby. You get the idea.
I got home for spring break this evening and was talking with him about politics for an hour.
Despite the fact that all the news he hears is from Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson, he claims that I'm the brainwashed one and am a leftist playing into the globalist agenda.
When I referred to our generation as Millenials, he vehemently denied it and changed the subject.
I'm reminded of the film "The Boy in the Striped Pajamas". The sister of the main character is a young impressionable child. As the years go by, she buys into the Nazis' anti-Jewish propaganda and goes full Hitler Youth by the end of the film. That kid is my brother and that scares me.
[QUOTE=Mr. Sarcastic;51910200]These generational differences between Millenials and Generation Z are really hitting home for me.
My brother has been leaning hard to the right lately and it's terrifying.
I was born in 95 and he was born in 97 but was held back a year.
We're polar opposites in every sense of the word. I'm academically inclined, he's inclined to lift weights, I'm tall and thin, he's short and frequently chubby. You get the idea.
I got home for spring break this evening and was talking with him about politics for an hour.
Despite the fact that all the news he hears is from Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson, he claims that I'm the brainwashed one and am a leftist playing into the globalist agenda.
When I referred to our generation as Millenials, he vehemently denied it and changed the subject.
I'm reminded of the film "The Boy in the Striped Pajamas". The sister of the main character is a young impressionable child. As the years go by, she buys into the Nazis' anti-Jewish propaganda and goes full Hitler Youth by the end of the film. That kid is my brother and that scares me.[/QUOTE]
Sociologists and researchers have been sounding the alarm for years about white nationalists and other extremists using online spaces to aggressively recruit young people.
Trump/Bannon chose instead to divert all investigations of domestic extremism in favour of foreign extremism instead.
this is a constant, when the young become old, their peers will largely see their opinions in much the same way as they do today.
i don't agree that the less time left on the planet determines the relevance of your political opinion though.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.