• Scalia Criticized For Comments About Black Students
    63 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49323688]Nobody asked you for statistic generalizations. There are white students in the same positions. What about them?[/QUOTE] That might be the single most stupid post in this thread and one of the worst I've read in ages. "Screw your mathematical facts, give me some anectodal evidence now!" Kudos for trying something new though.
[QUOTE=Fetret;49323730]That might be the single most stupid post in this thread and one of the worst I've read in ages. "Screw your mathematical facts, give me some anectodal evidence now!" Kudos for trying something new though.[/QUOTE] neither one actually cited statistics anyways, so they're both anectodal, but he does have a valid point in using race as a criteria because there are a lot of poor white students who have similar backgrounds to poor black students except they don't qualify for nearly as much help once they are in colleges, there aren't as many poor student outreach programs as there are minority student outreach programs, basically the services in college to help students have been built around minority students which leaves poor white students to struggle
[QUOTE=Sableye;49323769]neither one actually cited statistics anyways, so they're both anectodal, but he does have a valid point in using race as a criteria because there are a lot of poor white students who have similar backgrounds to poor black students except they don't qualify for nearly as much help once they are in colleges, there aren't as many poor student outreach programs as there are minority student outreach programs, basically the services in college to help students have been built around minority students which leaves poor white students to struggle[/QUOTE] but these outreach programs are rarely [i]run by the colleges[/i]. they're separate scholarships that people apply for that have no legal need to be non-discriminatory. School-run scholarships are either need-based or merit-based - that's it. Financial need or academic success. There is not a single "black scholarship" given out [i]by any public institution[/i], guaranteed. Those are all [i]private scholarships[/i] where [i]private donors[/i] pledge their money to people of specific backgrounds. What are you supposed to do there? Tell them not to give their money to the specific type of person they want to give their money to? The solution is to [i]establish your own scholarship fund for the poor that does not discriminate based on race[/i], not to complain about how unfair it is. Those funds are private groups giving their money to people they want - restricting that is [i]unconstitutional[/i] and unbelievably unfair. It'd be like saying you can't donate to a cancer charity because there's too much money going to cancer research, so you have to donate to a homeless fund instead. You can't do that. It's private funds.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49323688]Nobody asked you for statistic generalizations. There are white students in the same positions. What about them?[/QUOTE] Firstly, that wasn't a statistical generalization. It was a statement of fact. As for the topic at hand, CG-105 made the (true) point that white students generally perform better because their families and schools generally have more (or at the very least, easier) access to relevant resources. SashaWolf retorted with the typical "BUT WHITE PEOPLE" to which I cited that while yes white people are capable of being impoverished, it's not as systemic within a racial group as blacks. At no point was anyone actually talking about what should happen with white students. No one suggested that white students shouldn't receive help in reaching higher education. We were just saying that it's a problem more prevalent in the black community than the white community. If this information isn't convenient for your agenda or narrative then I'm sorry but aim your indignant disgust elsewhere because it's not my fault and as an impoverished white young adult myself it's laughable for you to imply I don't think white students who can't afford a leg up themselves don't deserve help. Get that shit out of here. [QUOTE=Sableye;49323769]neither one actually cited statistics anyways, so they're both anectodal, but he does have a valid point in using race as a criteria because there are a lot of poor white students who have similar backgrounds to poor black students except they don't qualify for nearly as much help once they are in colleges, there aren't as many poor student outreach programs as there are minority student outreach programs, basically the services in college to help students have been built around minority students which leaves poor white students to struggle[/QUOTE] I'm citing the US census of 2010 as well as common sense. If you don't think enough programs exist for impoverished white students then you are wrong. If you don't like being told you are wrong though then feel free to start your own 501(c) but I can see how doing something productive might be harder than posting on the internet about how minorities have it easier than the poor white people in America.
[QUOTE=Fetret;49323730]That might be the single most stupid post in this thread and one of the worst I've read in ages. "Screw your mathematical facts, give me some anectodal evidence now!" Kudos for trying something new though.[/QUOTE] The argument was that impoverished black students should get priority over impoverished white students because there are more wealthy white students. SashaWolf asked, "what about the white students in the same situation was the black students" - and was given the same statistics-based response which pretends poor white people are less important. These programs should not be based on race, period. They should be based on financial situation and a willingness to learn... which can be found in both races.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49324308]The argument was that impoverished black students should get priority over impoverished white students because there are more wealthy white students. SashaWolf asked, "what about the white students in the same situation was the black students" - and was given the same statistics-based response which pretends poor white people are less important. These programs should not be based on race, period. They should be based on financial situation and a willingness to learn... which can be found in both races.[/QUOTE] Oh shut the fuck up. No one is arguing that impoverished black students should get priority over impoverished white students because there happens to be less impoverished white students, and giving out pertinent statistics doesn't pretend that poor white people are less important. Statistics are nothing but quantitative fact. Any emotional baggage attached to them is yours alone. [editline]15th December 2015[/editline] Regarding what programs should and should not be about, see isaks post. Also[QUOTE] feel free to start your own 501(c) but I can see how doing something productive might be harder than posting on the internet about how minorities have it easier than the poor white people in America. [/QUOTE]
If no one was arguing that I don't understand why "more black kids are in poverty" is being used to counter "this opportunity should be available to white students in that situation"
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49324811]If no one was arguing that I don't understand why "more black kids are in poverty" is being used to counter "this opportunity should be available to white students in that situation"[/QUOTE] What opportunity? Exactly what "programs" are you complaining about that white people are missing out on? I want specifics, not vague allusions to victimization.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49324901]What opportunity? Exactly what "programs" are you complaining about that white people are missing out on? I want specifics, not vague allusions to victimization.[/QUOTE] I assume he's talking about affirmative action, since that's been offered as a solution multiple times in this thread already.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49324901]What opportunity? Exactly what "programs" are you complaining about that white people are missing out on? I want specifics, not vague allusions to victimization.[/QUOTE] The topic is affirmative action; i.e. disadvantaged black students being admitted preferentially based on skin color due to statistics. Affirmative action creates statistic equality, not opportunity equality, because of a black student and a white student in identical economic situations, the black student receives the scholarship (e: I meant admission) solely on the basis of his skin color, not due to any other qualifiers, and not to random chance. So the question was: what about the disadvantaged white students?... to which the reply was given, "black students have it harder," which is only true in the sense of a statistic generalization, because there are white students who have it just as hard. Your creative attempt to paint me as a racist as a defense mechanism falls way short of qualifying as a valid argument and I challenge you to actually approach the issue that's being discussed rather than dodging it with generalizations and off-base personal attacks. I am not expecting any amazing critical thought based on your track record but I invite you to surprise me.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325081]The topic is affirmative action; i.e. disadvantaged black students being admitted preferentially based on skin color due to statistics. Affirmative action creates statistic equality, not opportunity equality, because of a black student and a white student in identical economic situations, the black student receives the scholarship solely on the basis of his skin color, not due to any other qualifiers, and not to random chance. So the question was: what about the disadvantaged white students?... to which the reply was given, "black students have it harder," which is only true in the sense of a statistic generalization, because there are white students who have it just as hard. Your creative attempt to paint me as a racist as a defense mechanism falls way short of qualifying as a valid argument and I challenge you to actually approach the issue that's being discussed rather than dodging it with generalizations and off-base personal attacks.[/QUOTE] Affirmative action does not involve scholarships. It involves admissions. School scholarships are merit-based or need-based almost exclusively - there may be exceptions, but the vast majority of school-funded scholarships do not give preference to race or gender (at least on paper, who knows in practice). Private scholarships can do whatever the fuck they want with their money and they're unrelated to the school. If you think minority students are [i]actually receiving more money from the school on the basis of their skin color[/i], you're incorrect. They have a higher chance of [i]being admitted[/i], yes, and that is up for debate, but it's blatantly wrong to say that affirmative action applies to university scholarships. Private scholarships can discriminate however they want.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49325135]Affirmative action does not involve scholarships. It involves admissions. School scholarships are merit-based or need-based almost exclusively - there may be exceptions, but the vast majority of school-funded scholarships do not give preference to race or gender (at least on paper, who knows in practice). Private scholarships can do whatever the fuck they want with their money and they're unrelated to the school. If you think minority students are [i]actually receiving more money from the school on the basis of their skin color[/i], you're incorrect. They have a higher chance of [i]being admitted[/i], yes, and that is up for debate, but it's blatantly wrong to say that affirmative action applies to university scholarships. Private scholarships can discriminate however they want.[/QUOTE] Scholarship was the wrong term to use, you're correct, I was referring to admissions.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49325007]I assume he's talking about affirmative action, since that's been offered as a solution multiple times in this thread already.[/QUOTE] "I don't like affirmative action" answers my question about specificity as "I like peanut butter". [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325081]The topic is affirmative action; i.e. disadvantaged black students being admitted preferentially based on skin color due to statistics. Affirmative action creates statistic equality, not opportunity equality, because of a black student and a white student in identical economic situations, the black student receives the scholarship solely on the basis of his skin color, not due to any other qualifiers, and not to random chance.[/QUOTE] Like isak said scholarships based on raced are entirely private affairs and stopping private citizens from raising money to give to causes they believe in (like young blacks working towards higher education) is wrong. If you think there is a racial imbalance in the private sector then start your own scholarship. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325081]So the question was: what about the disadvantaged white students?... to which the reply was given, "black students have it harder," which is only true in the sense of a statistic generalization, because there are white students who have it just as hard.[/QUOTE] The reply given wasn't "black students have it harder", that's a strawman of your own design. Again, the statistic I gave isn't a generalization. It's a statistic. A statistical generalization is using a statistic then saying "most black students have it harder than most white students". That's a generalizatoin. The statistic itself is only a quantitative value, a value that clearly makes you incredibly uncomfortable. Assigning it the misnomer of a "statistic generalization" is an obvious way of trying to discount it. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325081]Your creative attempt to paint me as a racist as a defense mechanism falls way short of any valid argument and I challenge you to actually approach the issue that's being discussed rather than dodging it with generalizations and off-base personal attacks.[/QUOTE] I don't think you are a racist, I think you have a massive victimization complex and are ignorant to the fact that socioeconomic, education, and race are all intertwined. [editline]15th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325142]Scholarship was the wrong term to use, you're correct, I was referring to admissions.[/QUOTE] Yeah when you are just randomly ranting about how good minorities have it its easy to get two very different subjects mixed up. So are we talking about scholarships/funding or admissions now that you know which topic you are on. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325081]I am not expecting any amazing critical thought based on your track record but I invite you to surprise me.[/QUOTE] Critical thinking involves rationality. Waving away statistics because you don't like them isn't critical thinking so I don't think I'm going to invest the time or effort subscribing to your personal definition of a critical thought.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49325148]"I don't like affirmative action" answers my question about specificity as "I like peanut butter". Like isak said scholarships based on raced are entirely private affairs and stopping private citizens from raising money to give to causes they believe in (like young blacks working towards higher education) is wrong. If you think there is a racial imbalance in the private sector then start your own scholarship. The reply given wasn't "black students have it harder", that's a strawman of your own design. Again, the statistic I gave isn't a generalization. It's a statistic. A statistical generalization is using a statistic then saying "most black students have it harder than most white students". That's a generalizatoin. The statistic itself is only a quantitative value, a value that clearly makes you incredibly uncomfortable. I don't think you are a racist, I think you have a massive victimization complex and are ignorant to the fact that socioeconomic, education, and race are all intertwined.[/QUOTE] You did the exact same thing again. When you present statistics as an argument you can't pretend you didn't mean anything by it. You picked them for a reason and presented them as a counterpoint. I'm well aware of the link between race, financial status and education. You will dismiss this as an anecdote but I grew up in the grimier parts of Fort Worth. I went through the school system there and I saw the disparity personally. I do not think, however, that race should be factored into school admissions in any way. Affirmative action is not the answer to the race/education issue. I'm willing to have this conversation with Isak, who is capable of overlooking wording issues and carrying on a conversation without acting like a 3 year old. You should probably sit on the sidelines and watch. You might learn something about communication.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325184] I'm willing to have this conversation with Isak, who is capable of overlooking wording issues and carry on a conversation without acting like a 3 year old. You should probably sit on the sidelines and watch. You might learn something about communication.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325081]off-base personal attacks[/QUOTE] Quite.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49325226]Quite.[/QUOTE] You're telling me to shut the fuck up and accusing me of being racist/having a victimization complex because I don't agree with denying entry to white students on the basis of their skin color. You need to learn to communicate or take your own advice.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325249]You're telling me to shut the fuck up and accusing me of being racist/having a victimization complex because I don't agree with denying entry to white students on the basis of their skin color. You need to learn to communicate or take your own advice.[/QUOTE] I never accused you of being a racist.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49325290]I never accused you of being a racist.[/QUOTE] That was the clear undertone of your prior posts. Pretending you never meant that will go nowhere.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49324721]Oh shut the fuck up. No one is arguing that impoverished black students should get priority over impoverished white students because there happens to be less impoverished white students[/QUOTE] How else am I meant to interpret this counterarguement then? [QUOTE=Raidyr;49323586]Statistically blacks have the highest rate of families in poverty, followed by hispanics, Asians, and whites.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49325333]That was the clear undertone of your prior posts. Pretending you never meant that will go nowhere.[/QUOTE] Undertone is not the same as accusing someone of being a racist. If I was accusing you of being racist I would say "You're a racist". Further, none of my posts were made from the point of view of you being a racist so I don't know how you can infer that. I will, however, double-down on you having an obsession with being the victim of every imagined slight. [QUOTE=SashaWolf;49325432]How else am I meant to interpret this counterarguement then?[/QUOTE] It wasn't a counter-argument. Feel free to interpret statistics however you wish.
Is your tactic, when out of ideas, to pretend you were never arguing at all? I'll confess that's a new one to me.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49325453] It wasn't a counter-argument. Feel free to interpret statistics however you wish.[/QUOTE] Wow, talk about disingenuous. Everyone knows from the context of the conversation that you were trying to use the statistic to make an argument.
[QUOTE=Melkor;49325689]Wow, talk about disingenuous. Everyone knows from the context of the conversation that you were trying to use the statistic to make an argument.[/QUOTE] What argument is that? I didn't feel the need to argue with Sasha's post because I mostly agree with it. I was just pointing out that poverty is more prevalent amongst blacks than it is whites.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;49323898]but these outreach programs are rarely [i]run by the colleges[/i]. they're separate scholarships that people apply for that have no legal need to be non-discriminatory. School-run scholarships are either need-based or merit-based - that's it. Financial need or academic success. There is not a single "black scholarship" given out [i]by any public institution[/i], guaranteed. Those are all [i]private scholarships[/i] where [i]private donors[/i] pledge their money to people of specific backgrounds. What are you supposed to do there? Tell them not to give their money to the specific type of person they want to give their money to? The solution is to [i]establish your own scholarship fund for the poor that does not discriminate based on race[/i], not to complain about how unfair it is. Those funds are private groups giving their money to people they want - restricting that is [i]unconstitutional[/i] and unbelievably unfair. It'd be like saying you can't donate to a cancer charity because there's too much money going to cancer research, so you have to donate to a homeless fund instead. You can't do that. It's private funds.[/QUOTE] No I'm talking about minority programs in the schools themselves, just like there are honors programs, there are a lot of programs dedicated to international, and minority students and they often overlook poorer non minority students
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49325790]What argument is that? I didn't feel the need to argue with Sasha's post because I mostly agree with it. I was just pointing out that poverty is more prevalent amongst blacks than it is whites.[/QUOTE] Yes, but why were you pointing it out? What was the point you were trying to make? Just give a straight answer because at the moment you're just stringing your supposed argument out as long as possible and its very confusing to everybody involved. Specifically: What is your stance on affirmative action that favors specific students in the admissions process based on the color on their skin?
[QUOTE=Zyler;49325902]Yes, but why were you pointing it out? What was the point you were trying to make? Just give a straight answer because at the moment you're just stringing your supposed argument out as long as possible and its very confusing to everybody involved. Specifically: What is your stance on affirmative action that favors specific students in the admissions process based on the color on their skin?[/QUOTE] The answer to your question lies within the post you quoted.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49326092]The answer to your question lies within the post you quoted.[/QUOTE] So what you mean is that rather than conduct yourself in a sane manner and clarify the misunderstanding early on, you opted to flame and argue with someone you agree with until pressed into admitting you didn't disagree?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49326100]So what you mean is that rather than conduct yourself in a sane manner and clarify the misunderstanding early on, you opted to flame and argue with someone you agree with until pressed into admitting you didn't disagree?[/QUOTE] I never flamed you.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49326111]I never flamed you.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Raidyr;49324721]Oh shut the fuck up.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49326120][/QUOTE] Hardly flaming but at this point you are just derailing the thread. Take it to PM's if you have problems with me personally. As for the topic at hand, yes, I agree with what Sasha said earlier about admissions. Sorry about the confusion. This will be my last post here.
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