[QUOTE=-xxsetshotxx-;48758992]Christ, how dense can one person be. It doesn't matter if he was suicidal or crippled. As far as the officers were concerned, he was a danger to both himself and those around him. People are generally unpredictable in those situations, and so the cops had to operate under that precedent. By refusing to comply and reaching for a gun, the guy in the the wheelchair guy was threatening lethal force. Lethal force can only be met with lethal force to reliably subdue a threat. Less-lethal options (tasers, rubber bullets, etc) are intended to deal with non-compliance in situations where there is no immediate threat to someone's life or well-being, as they cannot prevent the target from using their weapon, even when they are deployed effectively.
It's funny how you're trying to demonize the cops by making it seem like they really wanted to plug a suicidal cripple that day. Don't you think it's kinda fucked up that they were put in that situation in the first place?[/QUOTE]
I don't think I was really demonizing the cops. I watched the footage and didn't really see the urgency for pumping him full of bullets. If the cops would of pulled back it's not like this guy was going anywhere in a hurry, it didn't look like an overly busy area. Maybe someone could of tried talking him down 1st rather than surrounding him with guns pointed and screaming.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48759076]I don't think I was really demonizing the cops. I watched the footage and didn't really see the urgency for pumping him full of bullets. If the cops would of pulled back it's not like this guy was going anywhere in a hurry, it didn't look like an overly busy area. Maybe someone could of tried talking him down 1st rather than surrounding him with guns pointed and screaming.[/QUOTE]
He was already shot and bleeding profusely. The opportunity to talk him down had passed.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48759067]Not germany but still eu:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75uR4u5YEs[/media][/QUOTE]
I don't think shooting wheelchair guy in the leg would have been quite as effective :v:
But seriously, if he had had that shotgun pointed anywhere beside his own head, that situation might have ended much differently.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48759076]I don't think I was really demonizing the cops. I watched the footage and didn't really see the urgency for pumping him full of bullets. If the cops would of pulled back it's not like this guy was going anywhere in a hurry, it didn't look like an overly busy area. Maybe someone could of tried talking him down 1st rather than surrounding him with guns pointed and screaming.[/QUOTE]
He still had a gun, one which he'd already discharged recklessly. It's their job to deal with that kinda stuff before more people get hurt. They couldn't have known if he was planning to take someone else out too, so they had to treat him as a threat until he either complied or was found to not be a threat. If he wanted to talk, he probably would have put his hands up.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48759067]Not germany but still eu:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75uR4u5YEs[/media][/QUOTE]
Shooting someone in the leg on purpose is a reckless gamble with the suspects life. If that guy was hit in the femoral artery he would've bleed to death right there. If the cop missed, the suspect could be paralyzed for the rest of his life, etc, etc.
Besides, the wheelchair man had already shot himself. Shooting him in his (paralyzed) legs like an action here isn't going to help the situation.
[QUOTE=OvB;48759117]Shooting someone in the leg on purpose is a reckless gamble with the suspects life. If that guy was hit in the femoral artery he would've bleed to death right there. If the cop missed, the suspect could be paralyzed for the rest of his life, etc, etc. [/QUOTE]
lol the guy was already paralysed and is dead as well so..
Tazering him from behind was an option though.
[QUOTE=OvB;48759117]Shooting someone in the leg on purpose is a reckless gamble with the suspects life. If that guy was hit in the femoral artery he would've bleed to death right there. If the cop missed, the suspect could be paralyzed for the rest of his life, etc, etc.
Besides, the wheelchair man had already shot himself. Shooting him in his (paralyzed) legs like an action here isn't going to help the situation.[/QUOTE]
Oh trust me I know all this, but they had am ambulance waiting nearby afaik, and getting hit in the femoral artery still has a bigger survival chance with a medic nearby than a shotgun to the head.
Gambling a shot against his dominant arm might be better than magdumping though.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;48759075]Jesus pig fixing christ, they seriously had to throw that in?[/QUOTE]
the guy himself made a statement on race right after that, maybe they thought the context was necessary. and plus this is the daily mail we're talking about here dude, there's a decent chance that part was put in for the express purpose of angering its readers. they're not trustworthy enough to get mad over.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48759158]Oh trust me I know all this, but they had am ambulance waiting nearby afaik, and getting hit in the femoral artery still has a bigger survival chance with a medic nearby than a shotgun to the head.
Gambling a shot against his dominant arm might be better than magdumping though.[/QUOTE]
60 seconds to bleed to death from an arterial bleed with no intervention.
Poor cops only did their job by going in the open and gunning him down :'(((
[QUOTE=Crimor;48759158]Oh trust me I know all this, but they had am ambulance waiting nearby afaik, and getting hit in the femoral artery still has a bigger survival chance with a medic nearby than a shotgun to the head.
Gambling a shot against his dominant arm might be better than magdumping though.[/QUOTE]
By shooting him in the leg they are also gambling with their own lives, whereas killing him guarantees nobody but the suspect dies.
But if they shoot him in the leg they risk him being able to shoot someone before he bleeds out or is incapacitated.
By the way, you can see how fast you can bleed to death from a single shot to the leg, even when a torniquet is applied. Obviously NSFW.
[url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=885_1420607869[/url]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48759202]60 seconds to bleed to death from an arterial bleed with no intervention.[/QUOTE]
As I said, I know, and in the scenario I linked they had an ambulance waiting nearby because here in europe we actually try to save people.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48759386]As I said, I know, and in the scenario I linked they had an ambulance waiting nearby because here in europe we actually try to save people.[/QUOTE]
haha holy shit, it's fine if you want to hate american police, but the french situation isn't even slightly related. It was a long standoff with police having a clear line of fire and control of the situation, and no one else was in danger, and they even had time to wait for an ambulance.
In this situation the police were right in the danger, he could possibly harm bystanders, and the police arrived in the middle of the situation. The ambulance would obviously not make it in time.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48759386]As I said, I know, and in the scenario I linked they had an ambulance waiting nearby because here in europe we actually try to save people.[/QUOTE]
You're pretty thick, this has nothing to do with where the incident took place.
Looks like suicide by cops
[QUOTE=Oscar Lima Echo;48759432]haha holy shit, it's fine if you want to hate american police, but the french situation isn't even slightly related. It was a long standoff with police having a clear line of fire and control of the situation, and no one else was in danger, and they even had time to wait for an ambulance.
In this situation the police were right in the danger, he could possibly harm bystanders, and the police arrived in the middle of the situation. The ambulance would obviously not make it in time.[/QUOTE]
What police should do:
1) Get all bystanders and civs away.
2) Stay safe and wait for a backup (sniper, ambulance .. ect).
3) As long a gun is not pointed at you or others .. don't shoot.
4) Do NOT escalate the situation. Remain calm.
What happened:
1) Police escalated the danger by not bringing the civilians to safety.
2) Police went in without backup of any kind.
3) Police went in front of the paralyzed person. Effectively putting him and themselves in danger.
4) Police drew and shoot the person first, escalating the situation.
If you think running in front of a suicidal and unstable person is a good idea, you're wrong.
[QUOTE=Nak;48759540]What police should do:
1) Get all bystanders and civs away.
2) Stay safe and wait for a backup (sniper, ambulance .. ect).
3) As long a gun is not pointed at you or others .. don't shoot.
4) Do NOT escalate the situation. Remain calm.
What happened:
1) Police escalated the danger by not bringing the civilians to safety.
2) Police went in without backup of any kind.
3) Police went in front of the paralyzed person. Effectively putting him and themselves in danger.
4) Police drew and shoot the person first, escalating the situation.
If you think running in front of a suicidal and unstable person is a good idea, you're wrong.[/QUOTE]
The guy filming with his phone obviously felt that he was in no danger, the cops obviously felt different after running in front of him.
Guy wanted to die, pulled a gun on cops and as a result got shot..
Why the fuck are you guys debating this?
[QUOTE=MR-X;48759629]Guy wanted to die, pulled a gun on cops and as a result got shot..
Why the fuck are you guys debating this?[/QUOTE]
fucking cop pig fuckers should have shot him in the leg or at least waited for him to shoot a few people.
To be honest I'd rather have ten gun waving idiots dead rather than having a bystander or responder die because they waited to see what they wanted to do with their gun.
[QUOTE=gunnars1;48758691]They don't need more bullets to take out someone with a gun than someone with a knife.[/QUOTE]
US police is trained to shoot more than once and aim for center of mass because if you shoot someone with 9mm he's actually quite likely to shrug it off. If that person is armed with a gun themselves and shrugs off a bullet to the chest you're going to have to shoot more to keep them down.
It's a pretty simple concept and one that makes a lot of sense at that. If push comes to shove and you have to open fire on a suspect then you better make sure the suspect doesn't get up and attacks back.
[editline]25th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Nak;48759540]What police should do:
1) Get all bystanders and civs away.
2) Stay safe and wait for a backup (sniper, ambulance .. ect).
3) As long a gun is not pointed at you or others .. don't shoot.
4) Do NOT escalate the situation. Remain calm.
What happened:
1) Police escalated the danger by not bringing the civilians to safety.
2) Police went in without backup of any kind.
3) Police went in front of the paralyzed person. Effectively putting him and themselves in danger.
4) Police drew and shoot the person first, escalating the situation.
If you think running in front of a suicidal and unstable person is a good idea, you're wrong.[/QUOTE]
The last thing you have when suicide is involved is time. Calling in a sniper, ambulance, chopper or reinforcements to deal with one dude in a wheelchair who has a gun and is trying to shoot himself is overkill and by the time all those things are here he'll either already be dead or will already have opened fire.
-snip-, I'm an idiot
[QUOTE=Crimor;48759067]Not germany but still eu:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75uR4u5YEs[/media][/QUOTE]
That's a massive gamble and an extremely stupid decision though. It's cool that it worked, but that's not something you should ever use consistently especially from that far away.
[QUOTE=Falstad007;48759687]Careful you don't cut yourself on all that edge.
And shoot him in his legs? Have you ever fired a gun before?
You have to aim for the center of mass because not only is that the only place that will reliably incapacitate anyone, but you've got the best chance of your shot connecting.
People who say "they could have shot him in the arm or the leg!" or even worse "why didn't they shoot the gun out of his hand?" don't know how to gun.[/QUOTE]
You're both saying the same thing. You're both entirely in agreement. Read the thread.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;48758433]Yeah he could of evaded capture and gone round some of these cops houses and slaughtered their loved ones.[/QUOTE]
or he could've pulled a gun? Don't pretend what he's saying is stupid.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48759680]The last thing you have when suicide is involved is time. Calling in a sniper, ambulance, chopper or reinforcements to deal with one dude in a wheelchair who has a gun and is trying to shoot himself is overkill and by the time all those things are here he'll either already be dead or will already have opened fire.[/QUOTE]
I agree that there might not be time to call the army .. however no one knows what the guy was thinking. He could have had second thoughts and drop the gun 30 mins later..
Also wouldn't you agree that:
A) Shooting him could have made him enraged and target everyone.
B) Walking in front of an armed unstable person is a bad bad idea.
Granted they want the gun away from him .. but wouldn't it be a better idea to .. idk, stand behind the car and try to talk reason to the guy?
Doesn't look like he's waving around the gun in the video.
[QUOTE=Nak;48760213]I agree that there might not be time to call the army .. however no one knows what the guy was thinking. He could have had second thoughts and drop the gun 30 mins later..
Also wouldn't you agree that:
A) Shooting him could have made him enraged and target everyone.
B) Walking in front of an armed unstable person is a bad bad idea.
Granted they want the gun away from him .. but wouldn't it be a better idea to .. idk, stand behind the car and try to talk reason to the guy?
Doesn't look like he's waving around the gun in the video.[/QUOTE]
A) Shooting someone repeatedly usually kills them without the opportunity for them to flip out - [URL="https://youtu.be/28khv-BydeY?t=182"]except in rare cases[/URL].
B) Police cars are usually not armored and time was of the essence. How do you disarm someone without them seeing you?
[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;48758783]Classic FP, "If [I]I[/I] was in that situation I would have handled it better!"[/QUOTE]
It used to be "why didn't they taze him! xxddddd".
Yet another innocent life taken by power-mad cops who think its okay to murder anyone who they see as a threat. There have already been almost 900 deaths by cop this year alone in the U.S., it absolutely disgusts me. They have tools at their disposal to take care of situations like this but they always default to their firearms. Too many trigger-happy cops getting away with murder these days.
I'm not entirely sure what him being in a wheelchair has to do with anything whatsoever. If he can use his arms, he's just as much a threat as anyone else.
There's also the possibility of him not actually even being paralyzed.
[QUOTE=ShukaidoX;48761329]Yet another innocent life taken by power-mad cops who think its okay to murder anyone who they see as a threat. There have already been almost 900 deaths by cop this year alone in the U.S., it absolutely disgusts me. They have tools at their disposal to take care of situations like this but they always default to their firearms. Too many trigger-happy cops getting away with murder these days.[/QUOTE]
Yet another reply posted by uninformed users who think its okay to post without reading the article. There have already been almost two whole pages of replies so far alone in this thread, it absolutely disgusts me. They have the eyes to read the article and everything people have already posted but they always default to brutality.
Read the article, read the thread. What tool do you have in your arsenal to handle an armed guy who sees a cop and reaches in his pocket having already allegedly used a gun? Nice words? Tasers? Shoot once in the leg? Any of the other possibilities that have been debunked already in the other replies?
Yeah, the only way he could have lived there was by putting hands up. Certainly not hands in the pants.
Notably however, he was fired with a shotgun once like a minute [I]before[/I] the ending shots.
So he may have even had trouble putting his hands up, but then again he is seen lifting his body on the wheelchair using his hands, so probably not.
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