• [Jordan] Christian journalist murdered after being charged with insulting Islam
    130 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51109720]yes, not every war is a religious war, world war 2 wasn't a religious war so christianity took a back seat[/QUOTE] Not exactly what you were saying in post #101 though is it? You seemed to have argued around 180 degrees. [editline]26th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;51109735]but catholics are christian? catholics are literally about as christian as you can get lol[/QUOTE] I concede that catholics are christian although some would argue there is a difference.
[QUOTE=karlosfandango;51109543][url]https://carm.org/is-catholicism-christian[/url] Ok we can beg to differ. Originally: No Christianity did not take a back seat because it had nothing to with Christianity. Example: The largest % of our armed forces in the Falklands were Christian but the Falklands war had nothing to do with Christianity or religion in fact.[/QUOTE] You misunderstand the meaning of "to take a back seat". It specifically means that an element is present but not a driving force in the issue. Thus, "christianity taking back seat in WW2" is a valid statement and in line with what you say. Christianity did play a role in WW2 and in events leading to it. Fascismhas common roots with religious conservatism and shared supporters. The crux was that fascism was largely an anti-communist movement, and of course communism was strongly atheist and anti-church. This allowed fascism to gain support from those that were worried about fate of christianity in the face of advanced communism. Of course, over time fascism and nazism focused more on nationalism and subdued churches in various ways. Then there's the issue that anti-semitism was in part a religious conflict that nazis used as a springboard. So I'd argue that while christianity did not [I]drive[/I] events leading to WW2, it certainly [I]fueled[/I] them. The view that catholicism is not a form of christianity is a minority protestant view and a symptom of still-ongoing catholic-protestant split. I find it ironic that you yourself demonstrate susceptibility to christian religious intolerance that has been an important part of somewhat recent conflicts in British Isles and the Balkans. This situation where national interests coincide with religious interests is comparable to current Saudi-Iran proxy conflict which in part drives the ongoing unrest in the Middle East.
[QUOTE=Govna;51109827]No, and this false equivalency you're trying to pull isn't working on me-- nor will it work on anybody else who has an understanding of the Second World War and the current circumstances that are facing the world today. Hitler and the Nazis started World War II. Trying to lump France, the United Kingdom, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, fucking [I]Poland[/I], etc. into the same basket as them by saying they were all guilty of fighting some atrocious religious war for no good reason is horse shit. Hitler had a Catholic background and wanted to be a monk or a priest when he was a child, but he had completely moved away from that by the time he was an adult and only invoked Christian themes when it was politically-convenient for him to do so (such as when appealing to the Catholic Bavarians). Privately, he was critical of it, said Christianity was a weak and flabby religion... in fact, Hitler praised Islam in his criticism of Christianity: [I]"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[/I] Hitler also made such statements as: 1) [I]"I can imagine people being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mohammed, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians! In your lifetime, you used to hear the music of Richard Wagner. After your death, it will be nothing but hallelujahs, the waving of palms, children of an age for the feeding bottle, and hoary old men. The man of the isles pays homage to the forces of nature. But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery. A nigger with his taboos is crushingly superior to the human being who seriously believes in transubstantiation."[/I] 2) [I]"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers-- already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity-- then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented us from doing so."[/I] 3) [I]"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. The instructions of a hygienic nature that most religions gave, contributed to the foundation of organized communities. The precepts ordering people to wash, to avoid certain drinks, to fast at appointed dates, to take exercise, to rise with the sun, to climb to the top of the minaret-- all these were obligations invented by intelligent people. The exhortation to fight courageously is also self-explanatory. Observe, by the way, that, as a corollary, the Muslim was promised a paradise peopled with sensual girls, where wine flowed in streams-- a real earthly paradise. The Christians, on the other hand, declare themselves satisfied if after their death they are allowed to sing hallelujahs! Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this respect. And that's why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline."[/I] And as far as the Nazis themselves go, I suggest you study how they tried to paganize the German youth. The Hitler Youth would sing songs about things like the sun rising in accordance with old Germanic rituals, how they wanted rid of the Jews, the pope, and how they wanted to be pagans once again. There's also Himmler's esoteric rituals and practices within the SS that attempted to channel ancient Germanic paganism and incorporate it into Nazi ideology, which absolutely must be considered. They weren't atheists, but they weren't Christian either. World War II was not a religious war. It was not a Christian war. It was not then and is not now comparable to what's currently going on in the Middle East with ISIS, Al-Nusra, the Taliban, etc. [I]That[/I] is a religious war. It is strictly a matter of religion-- not race or ethnicity (there's white guys who have converted to Islam fighting with those groups you know; I'm not saying that tribal issues aren't also at work in their treatment of certain groups, but within those tribal differences, there's religious conflict as well which cannot be ignored), not imperialism or lebensraum in the sense of what the Nazis sought, it's not a showdown between Fascism and Communism... it's strictly a religious war, and it's nothing like World War II.[/QUOTE] yup you're correct, hitler used christianity politically to influence a christian population into committing horrifying issues you're basically arguing my point: religion is being used as a tool, not as the end in nazi germany, nor in the middle-east what makes you think that what is happening in the middle-east is strictly a matter of religion seems rather strange to me considering the primary victims of ISIS are muslims [editline]26th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=karlosfandango;51109829]Not exactly what you were saying in post #101 though is it? You seemed to have argued around 180 degrees.[/QUOTE] nope my argument has remained completely unchanged nothing i said in that post is inconsistent with what i've been saying that your argument has been
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51110109]yup you're correct, hitler used christianity politically to influence a christian population into committing horrifying issues you're basically arguing my point: religion is being used as a tool, not as the end in nazi germany, nor in the middle-east what makes you think that what is happening in the middle-east is strictly a matter of religion seems rather strange to me considering the primary victims of ISIS are muslims[/QUOTE] Except it's a religious war that's being waged in the Middle East, with the end goal being to establish a modern Islamic caliphate. It's not a case of them misusing religion or merely using religion as a tool of convenience; religion is the foundation of their organization and it is the entire reason why they are doing what it is that they are doing. ISIS' endgoal is the establishment of a worldwide caliphate wherein Islam shall become the universal religion, that's it. They're not just doing this for political and social reasons the way the Nazis did what they did; they genuinely believe that this is a righteous goal to struggle towards. You need to study al-Baghdadi (the guy behind ISIS) and his work as a cleric. He genuinely believes that what he and ISIS are doing is righteous (the man was a religious scholar when he was a child and has lived an austere life in accordance with Islamic teachings; he's not cynical like Hitler was, he believes this shit), and that this religious struggle as a whole is justified. Also, it's not strange at all. ISIS kills those who don't follow Wahhabist doctrine within the Sunni faith. They hate Shi'ites, going back to that general schism that's existed between the two since the death of Muhammad, so that explains a considerable portion of their genocide. And Shi'ites hate Sunnis, which is why Iran is providing support to fight against ISIS and why we've had atrocities committed in Iraq where native Shi'ites have taken the opportunity to slaughter Sunnis. It's a clusterfuck of religious nonsense with brutal consequences. The Saudis egg it all on; again, they're the biggest exporters of Wahhabi jihadism.
There definitely is more extremism coming out of the Middle East - right now, at least - but you can't blame it solely on religion. You have to take into account the history of the area, particularly the last 100 years. A lot of boundaries changed, nations rose and fell, and large portions of the area were used as an international chessboard.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51110109]yup you're correct, hitler used christianity politically to influence a christian population into committing horrifying issues you're basically arguing my point: religion is being used as a tool, not as the end in nazi germany, nor in the middle-east what makes you think that what is happening in the middle-east is strictly a matter of religion seems rather strange to me considering the primary victims of ISIS are muslims [editline]26th September 2016[/editline] nope my argument has remained completely unchanged nothing i said in that post is inconsistent with what i've been saying that your argument has been[/QUOTE] I am struggling to understand your point because it seems to keep changing, are you suggesting that today's conflicts in the middle east are not religion related and that ww2 was?
[QUOTE=Govna;51110443]Except it's a religious war that's being waged in the Middle East, with the end goal being to establish a modern Islamic caliphate. It's not a case of them misusing religion or merely using religion as a tool of convenience; religion is the foundation of their organization and it is the entire reason why they are doing what it is that they are doing. ISIS' endgoal is the establishment of a worldwide caliphate wherein Islam shall become the universal religion, that's it. They're not just doing this for political and social reasons the way the Nazis did what they did; they genuinely believe that this is a righteous goal to struggle towards. You need to study al-Baghdadi (the guy behind ISIS) and his work as a cleric. He genuinely believes that what he and ISIS are doing is righteous (the man was a religious scholar when he was a child and has lived an austere life in accordance with Islamic teachings; he's not cynical like Hitler was, he believes this shit), and that this religious struggle as a whole is justified. Also, it's not strange at all. ISIS kills those who don't follow Wahhabist doctrine within the Sunni faith. They hate Shi'ites, going back to that general schism that's existed between the two since the death of Muhammad, so that explains a considerable portion of their genocide. And Shi'ites hate Sunnis, which is why Iran is providing support to fight against ISIS and why we've had atrocities committed in Iraq where native Shi'ites have taken the opportunity to slaughter Sunnis. It's a clusterfuck of religious nonsense with brutal consequences. The Saudis egg it all on; again, they're the biggest exporters of Wahhabi jihadism.[/QUOTE] local mosques condemn isis every week here everytime imams get to speak. and it's probably the same way in america/uk/any place that isnt in the middle east at this point it has more to do with the environment rather than the religion itself the average muslim in non war-torn areas cares more about eating his next mcburger than establishing an islamic caliphate [QUOTE=Govna;51108711] That's a very presumptuous statement. You have no idea how much they know about Islam or what their background with it is. I starred his post, and my dad's side of the family is made up entirely of Shi'ites (some practice, some don't) who came here to the United States because of what happened in Iran with the Islamic Revolution; they simply didn't want any part of it because they knew how destructive it would be. As far as my dad goes, he thinks it's a silly and violent religion. He thinks religion in general causes more problems than it's worth. And he's absolutely right. That's why I love it when people start criticizing Islam and then others come in and say, "Well Christianity is just as bad!" What a stellar, ace-in-the-hole argument you've got there. Too bad for you I'm not a Christian either and don't care if you attack it. [/QUOTE] i dont give a shit about the comparison between christianity and islam, and while i do think that religion is silly, it is a given fact that there are billions of practicing people who consider it part of their cultural identity and lifestyle. and they're doing absolutely nothing but living as other people do, yet there they still get associated with the likes of ISIS and are as such looked down upon despite not having caused any trouble for their commnity a presumptuous statement? i'm literally quoting a post that says [QUOTE=Nitro836;51103103]RELIGION OF PEACE[/QUOTE] in mockery of the religion. a post that people unironically agree with. what else is there to it? are you telling me to somehow search for a deeper meaning to it to rationalize this kind of behavior?
[QUOTE=Boaraes;51106431]Islam is a terrible ideology, not much of a surprise when terrible things happen when its religious laws are applied in reality.[/QUOTE] MADE IN TRUMPLAND. CAUTION: FRAGILE OPINION ON BOARD
[QUOTE=da space core;51107119]Sometimes i wonder why i bother. I mean i read the op, think a bit, then take my time writing a post. Then I see others come along and fart on the keyboard without reading anything. If Islam is a terrible ideology, then you are painting quite a lot of people with a broad brush. Either clarify what you mean or post some sources to back your argument[/QUOTE] The religion of Islam holds tenets within its sacred texts that are morally reprehensible. That really didn't need clarification. I'm not even talking about Muslims so no need to get your panties in a twist. [QUOTE=hakimhakim;51116516]MADE IN TRUMPLAND. CAUTION: FRAGILE OPINION ON BOARD[/QUOTE] I don't like Trump, but okay.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51103333]I'ts pretty fucking exclusive to islam these days.[/QUOTE] Nah, it's exclusive to abrahamic faiths.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.