[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;49235229]Yeah except that entire idea is bullshit given stories like this
[url]http://fox13now.com/2015/10/31/sheriff-winder-individual-shot-by-police-in-midvale-was-a-bystander/[/url]
And the fact that police very often have unintended casualites when dealing with suspects in areas like that.
[url]http://www.vice.com/read/what-happens-when-the-police-shoot-bystanders[/url]
[url]http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/[/url]
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/new-york-empire-state/[/url]
Long story short, if the police are trained and still shoot innocent bystanders on accident i'm pretty damn sure that a CCW will fair no better against an armed suspect.[/QUOTE]
most ccw holders are better trained than the police though. police are trained at threat response and nothing else. your average hobbyist puts 50 times the amount of lead down range that a cop does per year
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49234052]Just as much as the armed militia did as well.[/QUOTE]
They're hamstrung by California's obnoxious, nonsensical laws.
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;49234154]Yeah I mean a handgun against apparent body armor and ar-15 rifles would really be possible. [/QUOTE]
Let me remind you that while decades ago the standard practice was for cops responding on the scene to wait for backup before going in, current practice is for cops to go in immediately because [i]any intervention[/i] is better than nothing at slowing or stopping an active shooter. And those cops are, in fact, armed with handguns.
I wouldn't like my chances against several guys in body armor with rifles with a concealed carry handgun but I sure as hell have a better chance than if I'm unarmed.
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;49235229]Long story short, if the police are trained and still shoot innocent bystanders on accident i'm pretty damn sure that a CCW will fair no better against an armed suspect.[/QUOTE]
As butre already pointed out most cops in gun-unfriendly states have very little experience with firearms and many never fire a shot outside their mandatory yearly qualification. Your average CCWer is similarly armed and better trained than your average California police officer.
And I mean, this isn't even anecdotal or hypothetical. There are numerous examples of would-be mass shooters being stopped by armed citizens. Interpol of all things stated after the Paris shooting that concealed carry is an effective deterrence to public attacks.
[QUOTE=SirKillsAlot;49232582]Are they not both tools? A car gets me from A to B, a rifle will get that deer onto my dinner table. You need to appreciate and respect both as they both are things that can get people killed. A rifle isn't something I need every day to survive, but neither is a car. I could take a bus or walk, but I decided to take the proper courses and learn about the tool and become registered to both drive and to shoot.[/QUOTE]
A gun is literally designed to kill people.
Cars can kill people, but they aren't meant to by design.
A gun has literally 0 practical purpose beyond killing something, and it wasn't made with hunting in mind, hunting is just a byproduct of what they were truly developed to do: kill people.
Also I don't think you need to go hunting with a glock or AR-15
I really doubt a lot of gun owners outside of rural areas use it to hunt, a lot of do it for their own superiority gun nut complex
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;49235229]Yeah except that entire idea is bullshit given stories like this
[url]http://fox13now.com/2015/10/31/sheriff-winder-individual-shot-by-police-in-midvale-was-a-bystander/[/url]
And the fact that police very often have unintended casualites when dealing with suspects in areas like that.
[url]http://www.vice.com/read/what-happens-when-the-police-shoot-bystanders[/url]
[url]http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/[/url]
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/new-york-empire-state/[/url]
Long story short, if the police are trained and still shoot innocent bystanders on accident i'm pretty damn sure that a CCW will fair no better against an armed suspect.[/QUOTE]
Yeah... There's a lot more cops shooting bystanders than armed citizens.
[editline]3rd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49235346]A gun is literally designed to kill people.
Cars can kill people, but they aren't meant to by design.
A gun has literally 0 practical purpose beyond killing something, and it wasn't made with hunting in mind, hunting is just a byproduct of what they were truly developed to do: kill people.
Also I don't think you need to go hunting with a glock or AR-15[/QUOTE]
Some people need killing.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;49234338]The armed Korean store owners during the LA riots did just fine.[/QUOTE]
Never forget the roof koreans
[QUOTE=certified;49232671]I can't help but feel that these "Repeal the Second Amendment" types don't realize they're playing with fire.
Once the 2nd is gone, the road is [B]PAVED[/B] for the 1st and others to fall. Do NOT underestimate the politicians that are in office: Given an inch, they can and WILL take far more than just a mile, as demonstrated by the slippery slope of decaying privacy starting with the PATRIOT Act and the founding of the TSA.
Also, some Dummkopf is going to cite Prohibition being overturned.
Guess what dumbfuck, Prohibition took away people's rights. Getting rid of it gave rights back.[/QUOTE]
Literally every modern democracy in the world has extensive gun legislation and I don't see them falling apart to become modern tyrannies, unless you envision some dystopion future where the Happy Police of Sweden are rounding up civillians and the god-fearing population of the United States of Amerifuckyeah are the last bastion of freedom which I really don't see
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49235392]Literally every modern democracy in the world has extensive gun legislation and I don't see them falling apart to become modern tyrannies, unless you envision some dystopion future where the Happy Police of Sweden are rounding up civillians and the god-fearing population of the United States of Amerifuckyeah are the last bastion of freedom which I really don't see[/QUOTE]
How many of those countries enacted equivalents to the PATRIOT Act, or NSA spying program? It's a little naive to imply that the American political situation is essentially identical to that of much more stable countries.
I don't get how these arguments can oscillate between 'America has gun violence and culture like a third world country' and 'America will be just fine if it bans guns, like these first world countries'. We're starting off by acknowledging that America is well behind the rest of the civilized world in healthcare, crime, incarceration, wealth distribution, education, social mobility, political representation, and, yes, gun control- so why use an argument that essentially says America will be fine because other first-world countries are?
Do you trust your government?
REal talk though it has more to do with guns, and not in a handwave "lol mental health xd" thing United States has a people problem too
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49235346]Also I don't think you need to go hunting with a glock or AR-15
I really doubt a lot of gun owners outside of rural areas use it to hunt, a lot of do it for their own superiority gun nut complex[/QUOTE]Could you people stop this shit? It's not some complex, it has nothing to do with superiority, we either firmly believe in firearm ownership as a fundamental human right or we simply just like to have guns. This vain, paranoid gun-nut bogeyman you're using as an epithet against anyone who owns even a .22 peashooter doesn't exist and frankly it's fucking insulting. Using it is going to turn people off to whatever you have to say, honestly it makes you look like a sanctimonious dipshit who doesn't know what they're talking about. For the sake of discussion, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not shitposting, it's probably a good idea if you stopped treating us like we're too stupid to be in your corner of the internet.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49235392]Literally every modern democracy in the world has extensive gun legislation and I don't see them falling apart to become modern tyrannies, unless you envision some dystopion future where the Happy Police of Sweden are rounding up civillians and the god-fearing population of the United States of Amerifuckyeah are the last bastion of freedom which I really don't see[/QUOTE]Well we don't have hate speech laws and use "emergency powers" to lock up dissidents so honestly I think your sarcastic retort is apparently not too far off in reality.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49235445]Could you people stop this shit? It's not some complex, it has nothing to do with superiority, we either firmly believe in firearm ownership as a fundamental human right or we simply just like to have guns. This vain, paranoid gun-nut bogeyman you're using as an epithet against anyone who owns even a .22 peashooter doesn't exist and frankly it's fucking insulting. Using it is going to turn people off to whatever you have to say, honestly it makes you look like a sanctimonious dipshit who doesn't know what they're talking about. For the sake of discussion, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not shitposting, it's probably a good idea if you stopped treating us like we're too stupid to be in your corner of the internet.
Well we don't have hate speech laws and use "emergency powers" to lock up dissidents so honestly I think your sarcastic retort is apparently not too far off in reality.[/QUOTE]
We do have Hate Speech laws.
Hate speech laws aren't even "locked up for your opinion" they're credible threats or insights of violence against a particular group of people.
"I hate niggers" is rude, but not hate speech.
"Hey let's go hang that nigger over there" is hate speech.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49235445]Could you people stop this shit? It's not some complex, it has nothing to do with superiority, we either firmly believe in firearm ownership as a fundamental human right [/QUOTE]
How can that be a fundamental human right? It's not like not owning one damages your humanity.
[QUOTE=Anderan;49235268]In an active shooter scenario where you have no information beyond "there is a guy with a gun" how are you honestly going to know if the guy who just rounded the corner is the shooter or another concerned citizen?[/QUOTE]
An adult can choose to take the risk they'll accidentally be shot by police.
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;49234309]But I'v seen a lot of videos and pictures of the police in the US and... Well fuck, if there's something that they (and the army) can't handle, how do you even expect civilians to handle them? The police is a lot better equipped so I don't really see the sense in expecting civilians to do a better job than the police?
Also, the law is there for a reason. If it's not working, it should be changed but imo you can't just apply the law to x situation then turn a blind eye for Y situation. Maybe the law should be expanded for crisis situations, but please don't just give out guns to the next random person you see... Now THAT's dangerous.[/QUOTE]
If police and the army can't handle it, then they'd probably need every resource they can get, including civilians trained in the proper use of firearms.
Emphasis: [I][B]trained in the proper use of[/B][/I].
[QUOTE=Android phone;49234350]Not necessarily in every situation. Looters in a riot, were it bad enough, may respond to police presence with immediate violence (not even necessarily directed against just the police). If they had their eyes on a neighborhood or a section of town that was armed and intent on protecting itself, they'd likely stay away. Intimidation on the part of armed citizens could deter violence from rioters/looters.
Granted, I sincerely doubt the situation there is going to turn into a riot, but I can think of plenty in recent history where innocent bystanders had their properties torched juuust because, and the ability to defend themselves may have prevented it.[/QUOTE]
It's a truly shitty situation when somebody just up and torches your property because "lol wat r u gonna do about it nerd". :why:
[QUOTE=viper shtf;49235349]
Some people need killing.[/QUOTE]
Okay, you see this shit right here? This right here is the same mentality that causes this kind of bullshit to go down, and it needs to fucking stop somewhere. Stop that.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49235445]Could you people stop this shit? It's not some complex, it has nothing to do with superiority, we either firmly believe in firearm ownership as a fundamental human right or we simply just like to have guns. This vain, paranoid gun-nut bogeyman you're using as an epithet against anyone who owns even a .22 peashooter doesn't exist and frankly it's fucking insulting. Using it is going to turn people off to whatever you have to say, honestly it makes you look like a sanctimonious dipshit who doesn't know what they're talking about. For the sake of discussion, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not shitposting, it's probably a good idea if you stopped treating us like we're too stupid to be in your corner of the internet.
[/QUOTE]
Strawmaning people also make you look like a tool.
Calling gun ownership a human right cheapens the term 'human right'
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49235346]Also I don't think you need to go hunting with a glock or AR-15[/QUOTE]
Except the AR-15 is many farmers' go-to weapon for gophers, rabbits, coyotes, and other lightweight pests. Otherwise it's just not powerful enough. But the AK47 is a damn excellent hog rifle.
[QUOTE]I really doubt a lot of gun owners outside of rural areas use it to hunt, a lot of do it for their own superiority gun nut complex[/QUOTE]
See, after making this kind of ignorant broad strokes, you're gonna have a lot of trouble convincing people you're not just trying to stir shit up.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;49235494]We do have Hate Speech laws.
Hate speech laws aren't even "locked up for your opinion" they're credible threats or insights of violence against a particular group of people.
"I hate niggers" is rude, but not hate speech.
"Hey let's go hang that nigger over there" is hate speech.[/QUOTE]... No... that's not correct at all. Other countries that fit your "modern democracy" parameter have laws that would be in direct violation of our 1A rights. Inciting violence is a legal gray area by the way, it's handled on a case-by-case basis in this country. (as it should be)
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;49235508]How can that be a fundamental human right? It's not like not owning one damages your humanity.[/QUOTE]Being stripped of your ability to defend yourself and your way of life does damage your humanity though. We have criminal courts specifically to deal with every case where that could potentially be the necessary punishment for any crime the accused has committed. It's not okay for the government to attempt to strip rights away from it's citizens just because it can, they're [I]rights[/I] and not privileges.
I see no difference between any of the first ten amendments, they're all equally valid to me. (even the weird ones like the 3rd, if that were a thing it would definitely piss me off)
The AR15, FN FAL and SKS were the go-to hog gun in Australia until they banned them. Still are the hog-gun in New Zealand.
[QUOTE=download;49235543]Strawmaning people also make you look like a tool.[/QUOTE]How am I "strawmanning" anyone...? I don't understand.
[editline]3rd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49235546]Calling gun ownership a human right cheapens the term 'human right'[/QUOTE]No it doesn't.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49235546]Calling gun ownership a human right cheapens the term 'human right'[/QUOTE]
Right? I think it's weird that here in the US, people are fighting tooth-and-nail to tell everyone that gun-ownership is a God-given right, yet it's still being heavily debated on whether or not easy access to healthcare is.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49235587]How am I "strawmanning" anyone...? I don't understand.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should reread what I wrote :|
[QUOTE=download;49235611]Maybe you should reread what I wrote :|[/QUOTE]I did and I still don't understand. D:
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;49235601]Right? I think it's weird that here in the US, people are fighting tooth-and-nail to tell everyone that gun-ownership is a God-given right, yet it's still being heavily debated on whether or not easy access to healthcare is.[/QUOTE]Maybe I consider both to be a right?????
[editline]thanks a lot matheus[/editline]
[I]life,[/I] liberty, etc etc
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49235546]Calling gun ownership a human right cheapens the term 'human right'[/QUOTE]
Self defense is a human right.
If the only way of defending myself from someone with a gun is by having a gun, then i consider it a human right.
-snip god DAMN IT MATT-
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49235619]I did and I still don't understand. D:
Maybe I consider both to be a right?????[/QUOTE]
I don't recall mentioning you specifically.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49235587]How am I "strawmanning" anyone...? I don't understand.
[editline]3rd December 2015[/editline]
No it doesn't.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does. Why do you consider it a human right? How does it degrade being human in any way if you're not allowed to own one?
It's not normal to live in a place where people NEED to have a gun to be able to live in safety. That's fucked up.
[QUOTE=Flumbooze;49235629]Yes it does. Why do you consider it a human right? How does it degrade being human in any way if you're not allowed to own one?[/QUOTE]This guy said it best:
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;49235620]Self defense is a human right.
If the only way of defending myself from someone with a gun is by having a gun, then i consider it a human right.[/QUOTE]
[editline]3rd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;49235627]I don't recall mentioning you specifically.[/QUOTE]I was literally the only guy who said it was a human right, gee, I wonder who you were talking about.
Thats some shaky logic for declaring guns a human right.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49235643]Thats some shaky logic for declaring guns a human right.[/QUOTE]True, you are right that it's shaky logic, (and also it's not the beginning and end of my feelings on the right of firearm ownership) but no matter what I, you, or anyone else says we're still going to be treated like mouth-breathing troglodytes so it doesn't matter.
[editline]3rd December 2015[/editline]
With that said, fuck it, I'm going to work.
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