[QUOTE=SeamanStains;49245872]You speak of facts and ignore the fact that the UK has had two mass shootings in two decades, and the US has had two in under the span of a week. What a radical idea that somehow not having easy access to firearms makes crime with firearms less likely.[/QUOTE]
Ultimately, there are more efficient ways to tackle this issue without trampling on the rights of American citizens, and you have to remember that we do have a right to bear arms, it is not a privilege that can just be revoked at a whim. We have a -right- to keep and use firearms and foreign commentators need to respect that when considering what we should and can do about our issues. The American people do not overwhelmingly support the banning of most firearms so it simply will not happen.
[QUOTE=EdvardSchnitz;49245879]Good luck taking away millions of guns from people who rather die than give them up.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying it's possible. I'm just saying out ignoring that guns are the issue is being dishonest with yourselves. Would also like to point out that a lot of fire arms are still legal in the UK.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;49245914]I'm not saying it's possible. I'm just saying out ignoring that guns are the issue is being dishonest with yourselves. Would also like to point out that a lot of fire arms are still legal in the UK.[/QUOTE]
That's like saying people are ignoring old age as a cause of death. No one is ignoring the issues of guns, it's just something we have to deal with, and as time goes on, improve
[QUOTE=Milkdairy;49245905]Ultimately, there are more efficient ways to tackle this issue without trampling on the rights of American citizens, and you have to remember that we do have a right to bear arms, it is not a privilege that can just be revoked at a whim. We have a -right- to keep and use firearms and foreign commentators need to respect that when considering what we should and can do about our issues. The American people do not overwhelmingly support the banning of most firearms so it simply will not happen.[/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with one extra point: I think the main thing that needs to change with gun laws is the mental health system working with the FFL process.
To quote my friend living in San Bernardino
"Good luck trying to take away guns when the whole city is full of people who pack a mac"
The current situation is in such a state that alternative methods of gun control need to be found
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;49245914]I'm not saying it's possible. I'm just saying out ignoring that guns are the issue is being dishonest with yourselves. Would also like to point out that a lot of fire arms are still legal in the UK.[/QUOTE]
Then obviously they aren't the issue if they aren't being widely used for crimes there.
They also aren't being widely used for crimes here. Do you understand how much larger the US is, and how much worse off some parts of it are? There are socioeconomic factors contributing to an increased rate of crime and even magically poofing the guns away wouldn't stop people in those situations from wanting to kill each other.
Not that you care about facts, since you argument consists of "scary guns, boomstick, murder, empty emotional appeal, liek so many mass shootings!!!, ASSAULT WEAPONS, Only Happens In America"
This just in: CNN confirming that the shooters are connected with ISIS
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html[/url]
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;49245974]This just in: CNN confirming that the shooters are connected with ISIS
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
It seems the only actual connection to isis was some pledge of allegiance to them the attacker posted on facebook. Isis itself might not have had any clue who this lady was and if the attack was gonna go down.
[QUOTE=milktree;49245988]It seems the only actual connection to isis was some pledge of allegiance to them the attacker posted on facebook. Isis itself might not have had any clue who this lady was and if the attack was gonna go down.[/QUOTE]
They would have taken credit if it was an IS group directed attack
It was clearly a self-motivated move, perhaps encouraged by some other radicals with real connections to a terrorist organization but the shooting was obviously planned and executed independently
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;49245974]This just in: CNN confirming that the shooters are connected with ISIS
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
They confirmed that this morning and I posted that a page or two ago.
It wasn't "ISIS" though as they said that they weren't behind it. This lady was just a supporter of ISIS.
Holy shit the media just basically broke into the home of one of the shooters and started live broadcasting themselves looking at everything. They even showed the driver's license of one of the shooter's mothers along with her SSN and address. It's an active crime scene but apparently they just pushed past the landlord when he opened the door (according to him)
Jesus fucking Christ
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;49245974]This just in: CNN confirming that the shooters are connected with ISIS
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html[/url][/QUOTE]
I "can" understand some loners doing all this, but a married couple with a little baby is something completely new.
[QUOTE=Potus;49246067]Holy shit the media just basically broke into the home of one of the shooters and started live broadcasting themselves looking at everything. They even showed the driver's license of one of the shooter's mothers along with her SSN and address. It's an active crime scene but apparently they just pushed past the landlord when he opened the door (according to him)
Jesus fucking Christ[/QUOTE]
No they didn't. The landlord opened the doors for the media. They didn't break in. I saw videos of several sources confirming this. Glass was broken and shit because the [B]FBI[/B] had to serve a warrant.
chain text circulating around between people who live around the IE, not sure who started it, probably fake since these always float around the internet when we even have threats, but still : related
[img]https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12341034_10207903996937846_9138901066689476830_n.jpg?oh=a9bb5e0f5c006fb77611a593b8b131a8&oe=56E6F2DD[/img]
They released some pictures of the crime scene.
[t]https://i.gyazo.com/5f14c28d6578c2e020b6e47394136d5a.png[/t]
I don't understand how this could happen. AR-15's and 30rd Magazines are illegal in California. They're impossible to obtain how could this have happened in the state with some of the strictest gun control laws in the country?
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;49246210]They released some pictures of the crime scene.
[t]https://i.gyazo.com/5f14c28d6578c2e020b6e47394136d5a.png[/t]
I don't understand how this could happen. AR-15's and 30rd Magazines are illegal in California. They're impossible to obtain how could this have happened in the state with some of the strictest gun control laws in the country?[/QUOTE]
That's because gun control laws don't work, criminals don't follow them.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;49246212]That's because gun control laws don't work, criminals don't follow them.[/QUOTE]
Criminals don't follow any laws.
Welp, time to legalise killing and rape lads! After all, criminals are going to kill and rape anyway!
(the reality is gun control laws work when implemented correctly and completely, which isn't a thing that's going to happen without God himself telling the US because ~states rights~~~. ignoring the ability to just take a gun from a legal owner, or snap yourself with no warning)
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49246275]Criminals don't follow any laws.
Welp, time to legalise killing and rape lads! After all, criminals are going to kill and rape anyway[/QUOTE]
What kind of dumb comparison is that? No one is arguing that murder be made legal. You're the one arguing that EXTRA things be made illegal (owning a gun or obtaining a gun in certain ways), and people are arguing against that.
In fact, I would be willing to bet that pro-gun people are more likely to be for more strict punishment against those who misuse guns than anti-gun people.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49246275]Criminals don't follow any laws.
Welp, time to legalise killing and rape lads! After all, criminals are going to kill and rape anyway!
(the reality is gun control laws work when implemented correctly and completely, which isn't a thing that's going to happen without God himself telling the US because ~states rights~~~. ignoring the ability to just take a gun from a legal owner, or snap yourself with no warning)[/QUOTE]
People are still going to break laws. How do you make murder more illegal? Or theft? Or B&E's? Criminals will be criminals no matter what laws you pass.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49246275]Criminals don't follow any laws.
Welp, time to legalise killing and rape lads! After all, criminals are going to kill and rape anyway!
(the reality is gun control laws work when implemented correctly and completely, which isn't a thing that's going to happen without God himself telling the US because ~states rights~~~. ignoring the ability to just take a gun from a legal owner, or snap yourself with no warning)[/QUOTE]
you're right, if we just removed 30 round mags from every single person in every single state of the country and also made it impossible to bring them over from mexico, THEN gun control would work
[QUOTE=sgman91;49246287]
In fact, I would be willing to bet that pro-gun people are more likely to be for more strict punishment against those who misuse guns than anti-gun people.[/QUOTE]
Pro gun Solution: shoot them back.
Anti gun Solution: call the police and a swat team and go through the courts after whatever is going to happen, happens.
So the FBI is taking over and saying it is a act of terror so....
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;49246210]They released some pictures of the crime scene.
[t]https://i.gyazo.com/5f14c28d6578c2e020b6e47394136d5a.png[/t]
I don't understand how this could happen. AR-15's and 30rd Magazines are illegal in California. They're impossible to obtain how could this have happened in the state with some of the strictest gun control laws in the country?[/QUOTE]
Maybe they drove to Nevada.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;49246364]Maybe they drove to Nevada.[/QUOTE]
FFL process still follows the laws of the state you reside in. Driving out of state only gets you magazines and shit. If they tried to buy AR15's in NV, NV would call CA state police who would say "DENIED"
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;49246288]People are still going to break laws. How do you make murder more illegal? Or theft? Or B&E's? Criminals will be criminals no matter what laws you pass.[/QUOTE]
That's why we make the laws, to mitigate the impact of criminal behaviour. A murder suspect who is proven guilty cannot be a murderer again for a few years unless the prison is shit (the prisons sound kinda shit over there).
With gun control laws in place, are criminals still going to get their hands on guns? Yeah, they still manage it over here after all, but it severely drains the market of firearms, jacking the prices right up as supply drops after more and more confiscations occur. With less legal firearms to feed the illegal market it's really only a matter of time before it becomes impractical for a simple gang member or petty thief to afford a gun. Lowering escalation of violence. The potential spur-of-the-moment murderer wont be able to just point and click at whatever is aggravating them, suicidal thoughts become a lot more effort to fulfil (hanging yourself, drowning yourself, actually overdosing, bleeding out? all much more painful and less likely to succeed than shooting your ass upside the face), and spree shooters are unlikely to actually be able to source a weapon in time due to more extensive controls delaying access to the firearm and a much more expensive black market.
I've said it before, to you in particular. But how is "mental health" meant to be this ultimate fix? Yes, the US needs better mental welfare facilities, everywhere does, but rarely does another country with shoddy mental welfare assistance suffer these things. And how do you intend to catch "the crazies"? Genuinely crazy people tend to not notice they are in fact crazy so they wont look for help, and the psychopaths/ socio-paths who want to hurt others learn to hide it somewhat. Do you want to screen every single person regularly to see if they are "crazy" enough to not get a gun licence for that year or what?
The implementation of more effective gun control is not something I am an expert in (and neither are you, hell the only person I can think of on the forum who might be even close is BrickInHead due to his job requiring a pretty good background in this kind of shit if I recall). Coming up with an actually effective strategy for it is best left to those who actually have all of the numbers and not just the ones we get. But we wont even get that far as all research into the actual effects of any changes in federal legislation on gun control are blocked super hard by the damn gun lobbies (who only have your paycheck in mind, like most corporate lobbies).
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;49246315]Pro gun Solution: shoot them back.
Anti gun Solution: call the police and a swat team and go through the courts after whatever is going to happen, happens.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Call the police. They'll be there in anywhere from 5 minutes to over an hour, depending on location and serving department. In the meantime, have fun staying alive. An armed criminal only needs a [URL="http://www.self-defense-mind-body-spirit.com/average-police-response-time.html"]little over a minute[/URL] total to shoot you and leave you to bleed out on the curb, or gut you with a knife, or beat your brains out with a tire iron. But hey, at least now nobody's dying of gun violence now that they've confiscated everyone's guns, right? Right?
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;49246412]Yes. Call the police. They'll be there in anywhere from 5 minutes to over an hour, depending on location and serving department. In the meantime, have fun staying alive. An armed criminal only needs a [URL="http://www.self-defense-mind-body-spirit.com/average-police-response-time.html"]little over a minute[/URL] total to shoot you and leave you to bleed out on the curb, or gut you with a knife, or beat your brains out with a tire iron. But hey, at least now nobody's dying of gun violence now that they've confiscated everyone's guns, right? Right?[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a call to improve the police force rather than let the citizens take "justice" into their own hands. Violent crime will happen, but rather than complain about the police being slow and then do nothing to fix that, why don't you guys work on that?
A speedy police response is helpful for a shitload of reasons. Even if you already have guns.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49246441]Sounds like a call to improve the police force rather than let the citizens take "justice" into their own hands. Violent crime will happen, but rather than complain about the police being slow and then do nothing to fix that, why don't you guys work on that?
A speedy police response is helpful for a shitload of reasons. Even if you already have guns.[/QUOTE]
It's not "justice" it's self defense. If we were arguing for allowing gun owners to go find criminals after the fact and kill them, then "justice" might be relevant.
Also, it's unrealistic to expect police response times fast enough to be relevant in a normal home break-in scenario under any scenario.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49246441]Sounds like a call to improve the police force rather than let the citizens take "justice" into their own hands. Violent crime will happen, but rather than complain about the police being slow and then do nothing to fix that, why don't you guys work on that?
A speedy police response is helpful for a shitload of reasons. Even if you already have guns.[/QUOTE]
unless you have a plan to teach the police force the instant transmission technique I don't think you're going to solve the problem
while I don't think "give everyone guns so they can shoot the criminals back" is necessarily the best plan "make the police faster" isn't much better
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49246441]Sounds like a call to improve the police force rather than let the citizens take "justice" into their own hands. Violent crime will happen, but rather than complain about the police being slow and then do nothing to fix that, why don't you guys work on that?
A speedy police response is helpful for a shitload of reasons. Even if you already have guns.[/QUOTE]
One by one you are being forced to admit that guns are not [B]the[/B] problem and I think you don't even realize it. Firearm homicides are a symptom of a much more severe issue, and still an incredibly minor statistic in the grand scheme of things - certainly not prevalent enough to justify criminalizing currently law abiding gun owners.
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