Lib Dems pledge British return to EU in the next general election. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Conscript;50598639]"capitalism is too much for people to think about we should leave everything up to [i]representatives[/i]" i really like the indignation of the privileged, liberal political center in response to the rise of political extremes across the west and a growing rejection of the 21st century liberal-capitalist vision we've held since the 90s, because it was supposed to never happen. at least libertarians were always consistent in believing nations and democracy are fundamentally incompatible with the future, it seems our neoliberal elite will be forced to come to grips with that realization.[/QUOTE] Are you serious? The overwhelming narrative of the Leave campaign was resolving grievances towards immigration, which, as it turns out (who didn't see this coming), won't be resolved by the options that are immediately available to us. In order to have the same financial success that we have currently, we need to join the EEA, which, as an obligation, requires that we allow free movement of people into the country. Leave voters were misled that they were going to overcome this grievance by leaving the European Union. We're now left in a position where we can't argue our case. I think it's a pretty safe assertion that, no, people cannot be trusted with affecting capitalism when they don't consider the implications of what they're voting for. And to whom are you referring when you say the "privileged, liberal political center?" Are you referring to only those MPs in Parliament who have the knowledge to make an educated decision on whether remaining in the EU would be sensible decision? Or are you referring to the 48.1% of us that wanted to remain? I don't consider myself privileged when I come from a working class family, and am concerned about the economic fallout of leaving the world's most successful economic union.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;50598659]Oh don't get me wrong, I fully understood what you said, just that it was a load of tosh embellished with flowery language to make it seem like a legitimate statement, so I didn't bother responding properly.[/QUOTE] dude there's a lot of actually needless, redundant language in here. 'liberal-capitalism' and 'petit-bourgeois' aren't big scary words, they're very descriptive and relevant to the west in this globalized era. i see them used a lot, i don't see the problem. it's impossible to miss in America or Britain the question of the liberal political center vs the alternative right and the progressive left. class is written all over this, because we haven't actually moved past the 20th century all that much [QUOTE=Big Bang;50598688] Fuck you, I'm an expat, I'm part of the British public that is most affected by this, and that is why I vehemently defend Remain. I barely have any money and I don't have any ties whatsoever with the financial world, I don't even have a UK bank account. How can you seriously say that "oh only the capitalists and rich want the EU" when the working class is the one that will face the brunt of a recession and the removal of EU benefits?[/QUOTE] i already heard this from my polish immigrant family. in our time with the destruction of nations and organized labor, by believing this you're just being used in a greater scheme of labor competition and the race to the bottom, while global-minded capitalists reshape the world around you and set a better stage for their philosophy of eternal growth. at our expense it happens to hurt native workers slightly more than those who don't have much a stake in the nation, and that's all it takes for neoliberal shills to suddenly be pro-worker philantropists. just more division for the working class, it's not a reason for a worker to be pro-EU. it's like a blue collar worker here being pro-hillary because the TPP hurts less than some trade war trump causes, it's not actually an argument for the status quo.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50598744]i already heard this from my polish immigrant family. in our time with the destruction of nations and organized labor, by believing this you're just being used in a greater scheme of labor competition and the race to the bottom, while global-minded capitalist reshape the world around you and set a better stage for their philosophy of eternal growth. at our expense it happens to hurt native workers slightly more than those who don't have much a stake in the nation, and that's all it takes for neoliberal shills to suddenly be pro-worker philantropists. just more division for the working class.[/QUOTE] Remind me again on your views on Venezuela, I think I haven't had that much of a good laugh in a while.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50598639]ha i almost thought i had to reply with substance than i saw a word that confounded me ;) sorry, i didn't mean to raise the quality of discussion. keep fishing for ratings, it's all you're good for like it or not i didn't use a single 'big word' and i'm describing a theme just about everyone in the west can identify. it's the first point raised regarding brexit or trump, generation gaps on globalization opinions, and so on "capitalism is too much for people to think about we should leave everything up to [I]representatives[/I]" i really like the indignation of the privileged, liberal political center in response to the rise of political extremes across the west and a growing rejection of the 21st century liberal-capitalist vision we've held since the 90s, because it was supposed to never happen. at least libertarians were always consistent in believing nations and democracy are fundamentally incompatible with the future, it seems our neoliberal elite will be forced to come to grips with that realization.[/QUOTE] yeah sure it's not like the leave campaign was entirely spearheaded by rich toffs and bankrolled by a filthy tax avoiding cunt aka Arron Banks ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arron_Banks[/url]) also I hope your country votes for trump so you can enjoy the fall of "neoliberalism"

[QUOTE=Conscript;50598744]dude there's a lot of actually needless, redundant language in here. 'liberal-capitalism' and 'petit-bourgeois' aren't big scary words, they're very descriptive and relevant to the west in this globalized era. i see them used a lot, i don't see the problem. it's impossible to miss in America or Britain the question of the liberal political center vs the alternative right and the progressive left. class is written all over this, because we haven't actually moved past the 20th century all that much[/QUOTE] Would you agree with this? [url]https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/brexit-dark-side-social-media-claire-woodcock[/url] [quote] [I]There are many fabulous articles written on the class divide of the vote. There is also the heartbreaking reality that those who voted out are those who receive the most EU funding. My immediate thought (and I now appreciate the ugly ramifications of my "intellectual superiority") was "How could the people who voted to leave not understand what they had done to themselves?" In the run up to the referendum how could I have missed the voices of those worst hit by austerity, crying out for attention? I was within my own echo chamber. Presumably so were other voters and even political parties. Political leaders were not only detached from their constituents but also unable to access the private echo chambers of individuals' news feeds.[/I][/quote]

I mean fuck dude, the working class constantly vote against their best interests, you know this - the same thing happened here. but they aren't going to bring down global capitalism by doing this. they will be screwed so much more badly than before

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50598758]Remind me again on your views on Venezuela, I think I haven't had that much of a good laugh in a while.[/QUOTE] the irony of bringing up venezuela in this. quite like we see now in the west, there was a populist candidate that came around from the people's dissatisfaction with two decades of liberal-capitalism and the current politicians, the failure of both to deliver prosperity, and the socially-destructive excesses that were part of the package. the only difference is latin america, typically, turned left. we OTOH seem to be turning right. similar is happening to the country my family is from, poland. i'm not sure why you're laughing, i'm not. [quote]Are you serious? The overwhelming narrative of the Leave campaign was resolving grievances towards immigration, which, as it turns out (who didn't see this coming), won't be resolved by the options that are immediately available to us. In order to have the same financial success that we have currently, we need to join the EEA, which, as an obligation, requires that we allow free movement of people into the country. Leave voters were misled that they were going to overcome this grievance by leaving the European Union. We're now left in a position where we can't argue our case. I think it's a pretty safe assertion that, no, people cannot be trusted with affecting capitalism when they don't consider the implications of what they're voting for. And to whom are you referring when you say the "privileged, liberal political center?" Are you referring to only those MPs in Parliament who have the knowledge to make an educated decision on whether remaining in the EU would be sensible decision? Or are you referring to the 48.1% of us that wanted to remain? I don't consider myself privileged when I come from a working class family, and am concerned about the economic fallout of leaving the world's most successful economic union.[/quote] yes, i freely admit the leave campaign was built on misinformation and perhaps abused democracy as much as gave it a platform. [quote]yeah sure it's not like the leave campaign was entirely spearheaded by rich toffs and bankrolled by a filthy tax avoiding cunt aka Arron Banks ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arron_Banks[/url])[/quote] yes, there are euroskeptic rich people and the leave campaign isn't some spontaneous revolution from below, at least not in entirety [quote]Would you agree with this?[/quote] this isn't a new argument to me. the neoliberal center-left (our democratic party) always argues over here in america that the white working class votes against its own interests, especially of late pointing to trump who exploited some foreign labor or the fact red states (which take the most federal money) always wanting to cut this or that. i always agreed with it, until i realized a) the working class had simply retreated from organized labor to its last form of solidarity: nationalism 2) liberal elites don't understand this and took it as another reason why the lower class is politically immature and can't 'handle' their republic, because they're knuckle-draggers predisposed to either class identities or tribalism, rather than the ideal citizen: a middle class individualist 'citizen of the world'

fascists will fucking kill you, conscript. I don't know if you understand this, but actual skinheads are not nice people, and they really, really don't like communists. they won't be aligned with a "worker's revolution". they'll just send you to the gas chambers yeah i'm not sure why you're winky facing either. there's nothing funny about any of this

[QUOTE=Conscript;50598789]the irony of bringing up venezuela in this. quite like we see now in the west, there was a populist candidate that came around from the people's dissatisfaction with liberal-capitalism and the current politicians, the failure of both to deliver prosperity, and the socially-destructive excesses that were part of the package. latin america, typically, turned left. we OTOH seem to be turning right. similar is happening to the country my family is from, poland. i'm not sure why you're laughing[/QUOTE] I'm laughing because I want to prove a point. You're the worst kind of communist, the useless one, you pretend to defend the rights of the worker while sitting comfortably at home, spouting nothing but anti-capitalist rhetoric, repeating "neo-liberal" ad nauseum like if it has any sort of effect on anybody but you, while providing no solutions, no real arguments, merely conflict. The true irony lies in that you're exactly like the Chavistas. You hate capitalism and imperialism, you're driven by your hatred of the so called elites, you claim to stand for the common people, but ultimately it's all just hot air. The dissatisfaction of the people being used to make them back irrational decisions that only benefit a new elite, that's not a new trick, hell, it's why this Brexit shit went through.

if nationalism is the last gasp of the working class, conscript, why don'tcha join them in it? or are you above that? maybe harassing some working class south east asians would make you feel better?

[QUOTE=Conscript;50598789]this isn't a new argument to me. the neoliberal center-left (our democratic party) always argues over here in america that the white working class votes against its own interests, especially of late pointing to trump who exploited some foreign labor or the fact red states (which take the most federal money) always wanting to cut this or that. i always agreed with it, until i realized a) the working class had simply retreated from organized labor to its last form of solidarity: nationalism 2) liberal elites don't understand this and took it as another reason why the lower class is politically immature and can't 'handle' their republic, because they're knuckle-draggers predisposed to either class identities or tribalism, rather than the ideal citizen: a middle class individualist 'citizen of the world'[/QUOTE] Very interesting actually, even Peter Hitchens said something similar about the Leave vote rumbling the elite and its political parties out of touch with its voters. Just for clarity, Marxists (or those on the far Left in general) have usually been against the EU - am I correct? The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was always against the system, and I recall arguments against the union was around it's ruling capitalist elite, it's European masked colonialism and subvert destruction of smaller nations economies / industry especially outside of Europe.

[quote]Very interesting actually, even Peter Hitchens said something similar about the Leave vote rumbling the elite and its political parties out of touch with its voters. Just for clarity, Marxists (or those on the far Left in general) have usually been against the EU - am I correct? The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was always against the system, and I recall arguments against the union was around it's ruling capitalist elite, it's European masked colonialism and subvert destruction of smaller nations economies / industry especially outside of Europe.[/quote] all the marxists are for the EU because the left has regressed into race and became indistinguishable from SJWs, left liberals, center-leftists, whatever you want to call them. the last half of the 20th century saw the economists and the liberal-capitalists forcing them to retreat from economics into cultural war, humanities department academia, anti-nationalism, and cheerleading demographic change as an underhanded way of finding some relevance. they're fucking useless not to mention privileged and full of air, and antifa is just a bunch of braindead neoliberal stormtroopers. everything fucking sucks and all 3 20th century political poles (liberalism, nationalism, socialism) are utter shit. the 21st century so far seems to be just about learning the last one, the victor of 1945 and 1989, isn't really all that much better [quote]if nationalism is the last gasp of the working class, conscript, why don'tcha join them in it? or are you above that?[/quote] if the choice is between jackboots and fedoras, i choose just being a cynical asshole on FP

Do you know anywhere I can read up about the whole thing? I feel like I'm only getting a brief summery of events.

It's cute, watching the Lib Dems trying to be relevant again.

[QUOTE=Jackald;50600574]2 words: Tuition Fees. Vowed never to ever again in my life consider voting for the Lib Dems after they failed to even bother to fight for the only reason I supported them. I promise I'm never voting Lib Dem as long as I live and, unlike Nick Clegg, I know how to keep a promise.[/QUOTE] What he said. The Lib Dems are fucking dead. No young person in their right mind will ever vote for them again after what they did with tuition fees. This is all just desperate puff and smoke shite to try and appear relevant and try to win back the younger crowd they fucked over.