Vengeance for Eric Garner? Two New York officers shot.
154 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;46761945]holy fuck what a pathetic series of posts code3. 1 nutcase kills 2 cops and all of a sudden this movement & the mayor has blood on their hands? [/QUOTE]
I've never denied problems within law enforcement. I've even [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1438679&p=46583959&viewfull=1#post46583959"]admitted to problems[/URL] within it. The Mayor threw the entire department under the bus in his press conference regarding Garner. A part of the protesters started shouting for dead cops.. actually, a lot of people were calling for cops to get killed. A lot of the threats are unfounded, but now that someone followed through with it, everyone is going to be on high alert. I can see why officers in NYC dont want the mayor to be at their funerals and have a lot of unrest -- The mayor doesnt support them and someone just killed two of them because of these cases.
[quote=Lachz0r;46761945]and yet of course when TRAINED police officers kill someone or racially profile or target blacks unfairly it's always a bad apple and never indictative of the police force.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf"]729 people died in 2009[/URL] in custody. Thats 0.0018% of all police contacts. Its even more rare for someone to be shot and killed by a police officer (0.00124%). You're painting the entire field based on things that are extremely rare to happen.
The idea that trained police officers are killing people is not a flaw. You shoot center mass and continue to shoot until the threat has stopped. That may take 1, 3, 5, 6, 8? shots. No one knows. Adrenaline is amazing on what it can do for your body. Just because you shoot someone doesnt mean that they die, but it happens unfortunately. Taking a human life isnt easy. Most struggle with it, second guess their decisions, and have a hard time returning to work because of it. A lot of people get choked up at killing a wounded deer or dog.
The idea that law enforcement racially profiles is overstated. It may happen with an individual officer, but never anymore than that. Everyone fought so hard to get their job that they dont have any room for people who racially profile. If it happens, you'll lose your job and serve jail time. Thats a violation of the Civil Rights Act, a federal offense. You'll probably end up unemployed for the rest of your life. racial profiling was used a lot in post 9/11 by the feds, but that has since been outlawed.
I dont believe that blacks are targeted more unfairly than any other minority and the stats back that up, but I do believe that when they do have contacts with the police that they are treated more unfairly than everyone. They're over represented in our corrections system by a landslide due to the courts. I believe that our courts system needs to change in a way that bench trials are more impersonal than they are today - and this needs to be reflected in laws. We need to revise sentencing laws to ensure that everyone is treated fairly. Cops dont write the laws they just enforcement them as their told. When theres leeway to be had, most give it.
The problem with trying to judge the US law enforcement profession based on another department's actions is that theres 20,000 agencies with 750,000 officers, all with no federal qualifications. Each state, and some departments, have their own licensing program. Whats taught in NY may not be taught in AZ. What they train on in FL is not the same as they train on in MN. Theres no federal regulation on training nor will there ever be because of how complex law enforcement is in the US. The International Justice and
Public Safety Network and the National Crime Information Center are the only two databases that I'm aware of that are country wide. My department doesnt use the same databases or software as another adjacent agency.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;46761945]
WELL YOU DO IT BETTER THEN! far out
[editline]21st December 2014[/editline]
i wonder if you realize how much of a hypocrite you are?[/QUOTE]
I dont care about how you label me. You could call me a nazi war criminal and I could care less. I do my job and people appreciate it. When my friend was shot and killed on a traffic stop last year there wasnt a single complaint from the community. Not a single person questioned law enforcement. Other officers that had to step up and take calls for the city for days did not complain. If you dislike the uniform thats cool too, I wont disregard your call for assistance. You still get the same service as anyone else.
Most-all of this law enforcement hate is centered on the internet where anyone can say anything about any event from anywhere in the world. Enthrocentrism at its finest. Its the beauty of the internet.
Is everyone glossing over the part of the story where he murdered his ex-girlfriend then went out and killed cops? Guy had a ton of mental issues and used the protests as a justification to murder his ex and two officers.
The blame is entirely on the individual, not the movement. This was a lunatic acting on his own weird set of rules and we should be remembering the three people who lost their lives, not him.
So what perplexes me, is that this guy kills the wrong two cops.
Who do their jobs, normal, everyday, protectors of justice.
And for "vengeance". Fucking flawed logic if you ask me.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;46762408]Is everyone glossing over the part of the story where he murdered his ex-girlfriend[/QUOTE]
Shes not dead tho, he only wounded her.
[QUOTE=xxncxx;46760088]How do you seriously and consistently make posts like this?[/QUOTE]
What part is wrong about his post? How does a murderous thug's life matter more or even equal to than two protectors of the public? You're a fucking idiot.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;46759162]Whoa, a guy was selling untaxed cigarettes! Even though he didn't have any in his car at the time of his death? No way! What a terrible violent criminal! He deserved to die - good job, coppers![/QUOTE]
Arrested for selling Loose Cigs 8 prior times. Arrested a total of 30 times. Failed to comply with the police once he was under arrest. Are the police supposed to say Well Okie Dokie then, if you don't want to go to jail again for breaking the law then we're sorry to disturb you, we'll be going now. That's not how police work. Also, police are allowed to use the force necessary to apprehend someone if the arrest is lawful, which isn't the fault of the police, but lawmakers.
It's sad and it was accidental, but you should read the autopsy report. He was a dead man long before the police showed up
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46763086]Arrested for selling Loose Cigs 8 prior times. Arrested a total of 30 times. Failed to comply with the police once he was under arrest. Are the police supposed to say Well Okie Dokie then, if you don't want to go to jail again for breaking the law then we're sorry to disturb you, we'll be going now. That's not how police work. Also, police are allowed to use the force necessary to apprehend someone if the arrest is lawful, which isn't the fault of the police, but lawmakers.
It's sad and it was accidental, but you should read the autopsy report. He was a dead man long before the police showed up[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously just trying to justify someones death by previous events? Like whats the purpose of listing all of those things other than trying to get people to agree with you when you try to justify killing him? He yelled that he couldn't breathe and the cop didn't let up, that's not an accident.
[QUOTE=xxncxx;46763407]He yelled that he couldn't breathe and the cop didn't let up, that's not an accident.[/QUOTE]That's what every criminal does when they're arrested. If you do not comply, you do not get nice treatment because of potential risks you can pose. It is unfortunate that he died but cops are not meant to make you all comfortable during an arrest. If you don't resist and comply then they won't use force to cuff you. Otherwise they kinda must.
[QUOTE=xxncxx;46763407]Are you seriously just trying to justify someones death by previous events? Like whats the purpose of listing all of those things other than trying to get people to agree with you when you try to justify killing him? He yelled that he couldn't breathe and the cop didn't let up, that's not an accident.[/QUOTE]
You really believe the cop meant to choke him to death?
[QUOTE=Apache249;46763539]You really believe the cop meant to choke him to death?[/QUOTE]
Regardless of whether or not he was trying to choke him to death, what he did was not allowed by NYPD regulations, they've been banned for a while. So while he may not have meant to, he wasn't allowed to do that either and it lead to a death.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46763544]Regardless of whether or not he was trying to choke him to death, what he did was not allowed by NYPD regulations, they've been banned for a while. So while he may not have meant to, he wasn't allowed to do that either and it lead to a death.[/QUOTE]
That's fucked up then.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46763086]Arrested for selling Loose Cigs 8 prior times. Arrested a total of 30 times. Failed to comply with the police once he was under arrest. Are the police supposed to say Well Okie Dokie then, if you don't want to go to jail again for breaking the law then we're sorry to disturb you, we'll be going now. That's not how police work. Also, police are allowed to use the force necessary to apprehend someone if the arrest is lawful, which isn't the fault of the police, but lawmakers.
It's sad and it was accidental, but you should read the autopsy report. He was a dead man long before the police showed up[/QUOTE]
I've seen Eric Garner being walked up the stairs to Arrest Processing at the precinct. The cops who collared him had to make sure their radios were ready to call for an ambulance in case he collapsed. He could barely make it up two flights, he was wheezing and pretty awful looking. If anti-crime didn't do it, him tripping on the sidewalk would have killed him.
[editline]21st December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;46763544]Regardless of whether or not he was trying to choke him to death, what he did was not allowed by NYPD regulations, they've been banned for a while. So while he may not have meant to, he wasn't allowed to do that either and it lead to a death.[/QUOTE]
Actually the move he performed is taught in the NYPD academy, it's a Judo move. Even the ME said that it was chest compression that did it, not a chokehold.
[editline]21st December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=xxncxx;46763407]Are you seriously just trying to justify someones death by previous events? Like whats the purpose of listing all of those things other than trying to get people to agree with you when you try to justify killing him? He yelled that he couldn't breathe and the cop didn't let up, that's not an accident.[/QUOTE]
If he's yelling he can't breathe, he can breathe. You must be pretty fucking naive to think that, oh this perp says he's hurt, better leave him alone! Lets completely cancel the arrest process for him. Here's a good idea, how about he doesn't resist arrest????? Golly what a crazy fucking concept.
[QUOTE=amute;46764108]If he's yelling he can't breathe, he can breathe. You must be pretty fucking naive to think that, oh this perp says he's hurt, better leave him alone! Lets completely cancel the arrest process for him. Here's a good idea, how about he doesn't resist arrest????? Golly what a crazy fucking concept.[/QUOTE]
You can have trouble breathing but still talk. While being able to talk does mean that you are at least breathing somewhat, that doesn't mean that you can't be having some kind of trouble breathing. If you are face-down on the ground with people on you, you're going to feel a lot of pressure on your face and you chest and this can lead to your becoming panicked and losing control of your breathing. Having asthma doesn't help either.
[QUOTE=SoaringScout;46764181]You can have trouble breathing but still talk. While being able to talk does mean that you are at least breathing somewhat, that doesn't mean that you can't be having some kind of trouble breathing. If you are face-down on the ground with people on you, you're going to feel a lot of pressure on your face and you chest and this can lead to your becoming panicked and losing control of your breathing. Having asthma doesn't help either.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between being short of breath and having legitimate difficulty breathing. The latter does not allow for full sentences to be shouted out.
[QUOTE=amute;46764188]There's a difference between being short of breath and having legitimate difficulty breathing. The latter does not allow for full sentences to be shouted out.[/QUOTE]
"I can't breathe" isn't that hard to even shout out, even when suffering from breathing difficulties.
[QUOTE=amute;46764188]There's a difference between being short of breath and having legitimate difficulty breathing. The latter does not allow for full sentences to be shouted out.[/QUOTE]
He wasn't shouting and "I can't breathe" is a really short sentence to say.
[QUOTE=amute;46764108]
If he's yelling he can't breathe, he can breathe. You must be pretty fucking naive to think that, oh this perp says he's hurt, better leave him alone! Lets completely cancel the arrest process for him. Here's a good idea, how about he doesn't resist arrest????? Golly what a crazy fucking concept.[/QUOTE]
And yet he's still fucking dead and you're still fucking wrong.
[QUOTE=xxncxx;46764671]And yet he's still fucking dead and you're still fucking wrong.[/QUOTE]
From chest compression, it's almost as if you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Tell you what, have a semblance of an understanding of the situation before giving your opinion.
[QUOTE=SoaringScout;46764221]He wasn't shouting and "I can't breathe" is a really short sentence to say.[/QUOTE]
Laboured breathing disrupts your speech. Short or not, it's still long enough for people to have difficult speaking. Speaking from experience, when someone has legitimate life threatening issues with their breathing, they're not going to be fucking speaking full sentences. This is common knowledge. Exhale completely and try to shout "I can't breathe" several times.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;46763086]Arrested for selling Loose Cigs 8 prior times. Arrested a total of 30 times. Failed to comply with the police once he was under arrest. Are the police supposed to say Well Okie Dokie then, if you don't want to go to jail again for breaking the law then we're sorry to disturb you, we'll be going now. That's not how police work. Also, police are allowed to use the force necessary to apprehend someone if the arrest is lawful, which isn't the fault of the police, but lawmakers.
It's sad and it was accidental, but you should read the autopsy report. He was a dead man long before the police showed up[/QUOTE]
Oh, can the after-the-fact rationalization. None of those things carries the death penalty, and he was not about to drop dead any second.
[editline]21st December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=xxncxx;46763407]Are you seriously just trying to justify someones death by previous events? Like whats the purpose of listing all of those things other than trying to get people to agree with you when you try to justify killing him? He yelled that he couldn't breathe and the cop didn't let up, that's not an accident.[/QUOTE]
Well, it's easier to blame the victim and rationalize everything away than it is to deal with the truth, which is that police in this county treat black people like their lives simply do not matter as much as white people. They resort to force first, not last, and resort to deadly force more often. They are the beneficiaries of an entire system that suppresses accountability and provides cover for police when they kill people. Furthermore, police are the ground agents of a system that is biased against people of color at every level, from enforcement to the judiciary to incarceration.
Acknowledging all of that is a hell of a lot harder than saying "Oh well, he was a thug anyway, he deserved it." It's also a lot easier to paint police as these poor, oppressed, noble public servants than it is to acknowledge how many of them are violent, aggressive psychopaths. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, and people will do all sorts of victim-blaming mental gymnastics to avoid it.
[QUOTE=hrak;46759977]What, aside from prior experiences, do people make decisions based on?
1) It is not yet known if this is true. There is debate over whether or not the coordinates of electrons are truly random. It is presumed they are.
2) Even if the universe is not determined humans are still not responsible for their actions. The only way the universe can be undetermined is if there is some truly random agent, like a random electron. But this doesn't suddenly grant humans agency. Since humans cannot predict the outcome of a truly random force, they cannot affect their future any more than in the case of a determined universe. They are at the whims of those random electrons.[/QUOTE]
divorcing responsibility from the actions of humans feels like a dangerous road to go down. while i do believe that determinism is most likely correct, it should not be used to absolve people of their sins. if a racist cop goes out and shoots two black kids in the head, did he have no decision in the matter? it is the exact same situation, except instead of being raised in an environment that breeds a hatred of police, he was raised in an environment that bred racism. the indian bus rapists could be forgiven, since they were only products of their environment, if that is the case. a CEO making millions a year off of the backs of underpaid and overworked employees wouldn't be at fault for not giving fair wages to their employees, the environment they were raised in would be.
but that isn't entirely the case. humans only partially base their decisions on past occurence, otherwise people wouldn't make the same mistakes over and over again. to put the burden of people's actions entirely on their past experience is to remove the entire notion of fault.
people are fucking insane
[img]http://i.imgur.com/U19hIyP.jpg[/img]
The news has been so entertaining with this cop vs civilian and North Korea drama lately. Pass me the popcorn
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;46766542]people are fucking insane
[img]http://i.imgur.com/U19hIyP.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Ah yes, I can remember perfectly how positively everyone reacted to Garner's death
[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;46766791]Ah yes, I can remember perfectly how positively everyone reacted to Garner's death[/QUOTE]
I dunno, dude, there was no shortage of people swarming out of the woodwork to explain to the rest of us how Garner was a career criminal and a violent, dangerous thug who deserved what he got.
what a selfish cunt
[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;46766791]Ah yes, I can remember perfectly how positively everyone reacted to Garner's death[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/20/242D154D00000578-0-image-a-14_1419059054728.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.bizpacreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Pro-Cop2.png[/img]
[img]http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9937524.ece/alternates/w620/v2-pro-police-reuters.jpg[/img]
[editline]22nd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46768933]the whole "how cant he breathe if hes saying he cant breathe" argument was/is fucking abhorrent[/QUOTE]
My aunt almost died of asphyxiation while she was in the hospital.
She used all of her remaining breath to say "I can't breathe" and as SOON as she said that, people immediately rushed to help her, but you don't need to be a trained medical professional to know that you should [I]help somebody if they can't breathe.[/I]
It's also fucking disgusting how people are trying to half-assedly justify Garner's death by saying "Well he was fat and had health issues in the first place!" That rhetoric would be [I]somewhat[/I] acceptable if Garner died due to medical complications, [I]not[/I] from being choked to death.
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