[QUOTE=FFStudios;46716879]it's the third build of the OS and you want to ask why microsoft hasn't gotten around to changing the preinstallation UI? lmao it gets used for maybe five minutes and then you never see it again, if it ain't broke why go back and fuck it up and make it all metro-y? what is the point? you tell me.[/QUOTE]
there were quite a few releases between vista and the 10 preview if i remember correctly!!
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline]
microsoft will insist on continuing to use icons that are almost a couple of decades old. they have a serious problem with legacy stuff that they need to sort out before windows can actually be consistent in design
are there any programs that already do something similar to this?
[QUOTE=RoboChimp2;46717465]It's as useless as touchscreens and 3DTV and look what happened to those.[/QUOTE]
3DTV's are a gimmick and never gained traction, and is incomperable to touchscreens. You're flat out ignoring reality. Touchscreens are extremely common pieces of technology. Majority of smartphones have them, ATMs have them, etc.
[QUOTE=RoboChimp2;46717465]It's as useless as touchscreens and 3DTV and look what happened to those.[/QUOTE]
I used a Smartphone to write this message out soo uhh, what gimmick?
wnat is a cortana
[QUOTE=TheJoker;46710511]I don't like how it takes up 15% of the task bar.[/QUOTE]
I assume you only see the bar when you open it.
Like, click on it and it fills that part of the taskbar until you stop using it.
[QUOTE=RoboChimp2;46717465]It's as useless as touchscreens and 3DTV and look what happened to those.[/QUOTE]
Touchscreens are actually extremely useful, and if you say they're a gimmick then anything can be a gimmick.
[QUOTE=eirexe;46719008]I assume you only see the bar when you open it.
Like, click on it and it fills that part of the taskbar until you stop using it.[/QUOTE]
There's an option for the search bar, only icon or disabled completely.
[QUOTE=paul simon;46719050]Touchscreens are actually extremely useful, and if you say they're a gimmick then anything can be a gimmick.[/QUOTE]
I'd say touchscreen [I]desktops[/I] are a gimmicky use of an otherwise good tech, and that's what he was referencing.
lifting your arm to touch your screen with a finger when you've got a mouse right next to you seems like going out of your way to feel special, using features that were designed to make you go out of your way. Tablet PCs that act like laptops or have a dock or whatever made more sense in this regard, but full all-in-one desktop monitor things are just unnecessary
[QUOTE=dai;46719250]I'd say touchscreen [I]desktops[/I] are a gimmicky use of an otherwise good tech, and that's what he was referencing.
lifting your arm to touch your screen with a finger when you've got a mouse right next to you seems like going out of your way to feel special, using features that were designed to make you go out of your way. Tablet PCs that act like laptops or have a dock or whatever made more sense in this regard, but full all-in-one desktop monitor things are just unnecessary[/QUOTE]
Not to mention smudges on desktop monitor eugh
[QUOTE=.Lain;46718846]microsoft will insist on continuing to use icons that are almost a couple of decades old. they have a serious problem with legacy stuff that they need to sort out before windows can actually be consistent in design[/QUOTE]
9879 introduced some new icons, so they at least know there's a problem.
[QUOTE=.Lain;46718846]there were quite a few releases between vista and the 10 preview if i remember correctly!!
[/QUOTE]
you are more obtuse than the angles i learned about in geometry class back in high school lmao
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline]
like okay good point about the icons but you're going to talk about the pre-installation UI. the fucking installation of windows is somehow a complaint. let's not talk about how shitty and terrible microsoft has ALREADY implemented metro, let's talk about how something they have consistently not changed over the years still exists
Apple updated the install UI for Yosemite, last time i checked canonical did the same for Ubuntu with the latest releases. why can't microsoft do something so seemingly simple
microsoft pose a lack of polish in windows. font rendering is still bad, there are still [I]plenty[/I] of vista-style applications (photo viewer, fax viewer etc. things i would consider pretty essential) and windows 95/8 icons are still present in a lot of applications, and what even is the control panel interface meant to be; or why does it exist when there is a metro equivalent that has existed for years?
they said they would sort this problem in 8/8.1, and they didn't. until microsoft actually do something about people depending on legacy icons and software design i'll still consider it a massive issue
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline]
and i'm using windows 10 on both my laptop and desktop primarily, if it matters to you. i want to see microsoft fix these consistency issues that have existed for god knows how long now
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline]
DPI scaling is another issue that microsoft fail to address time and time again, even though it's becoming an ever increasingly obvious flaw in windows. microsoft don't provide any incentive to desktop application developers to embrace appropriate scaling, nor do they provide the right methods to do so
I can't see Microsoft changing the fact that half their software hasn't changed since Vista, as .Lain said, out of all the operating systems around, Windows is the least consistent out of the box, in my opinion.
They wanted to go all Flat UI style with 8.1 from what I can tell, yet there are things which have a gradient (Explorer's ribbon tooltips for example) which have existed since Vista:
[img]http://ss.infd.us/2014/12/2014-12-15_20-46-54.png[/img]
Or what about fax + scan, as mentioned here already (same blue ribbon since Vista)
[img]http://ss.infd.us/2014/12/2014-12-15_20-50-50.png[/img]
Personally, I think Windows just needs a massive overhaul of the legacy applications + an icon clearout. Linux distributions and Mac OS handles this fine, and Linux is a free OS. I guess you could really say Windows doesn't really feel worth the money you pay for it?
[QUOTE=Mors Quaedam;46720398]I can't see Microsoft changing the fact that half their software hasn't changed since Vista, as .Lain said, out of all the operating systems around, Windows is the least consistent out of the box, in my opinion.
They wanted to go all Flat UI style with 8.1 from what I can tell, yet there are things which have a gradient (Explorer's ribbon tooltips for example) which have existed since Vista:
[img]http://ss.infd.us/2014/12/2014-12-15_20-46-54.png[/img]
Or what about fax + scan, as mentioned here already (same blue ribbon since Vista)
[img]http://ss.infd.us/2014/12/2014-12-15_20-50-50.png[/img]
Personally, I think Windows just needs a massive overhaul of the legacy applications + an icon clearout. Linux distributions and Mac OS handles this fine, and Linux is a free OS. I guess you could really say Windows doesn't really feel worth the money you pay for it?[/QUOTE]
My favorite example is one people use all the time. Calculator. It still uses the EXACT Aero theme in 8.1. Not even a slight change. I don't know if its changed in 10, but I imagine its the same.
[QUOTE=Demache;46720564]My favorite example is one people use all the time. Calculator. It still uses the EXACT Aero theme in 8.1. Not even a slight change. I don't know if its changed in 10, but I imagine its the same.[/QUOTE]
It was something I checked on windows 10 when I used it a while ago. It's still using the office 2007-esque theme.
[img]http://ss.infd.us/2014/12/2014-12-15_21-19-50.png[/img]
[QUOTE=Demache;46720564]My favorite example is one people use all the time. Calculator. It still uses the EXACT Aero theme in 8.1. Not even a slight change. I don't know if its changed in 10, but I imagine its the same.[/QUOTE]
No change in 10 either:
[IMG]http://puu.sh/dw8Qz/7885c3895f.jpg[/IMG]
The only thing they've changed is that any sort of calculator hot key (like my keyboard has) opens the calculator app with modern UI.
Well at least that fugly border around windows is gone.
I like the window borders in Windows 8.1. It actually irritates me how there are no borders in Windows 10, it just doesn't look so aesthetic.
[QUOTE=Mors Quaedam;46720398]I can't see Microsoft changing the fact that half their software hasn't changed since Vista, as .Lain said, out of all the operating systems around, Windows is the least consistent out of the box, in my opinion.
They wanted to go all Flat UI style with 8.1 from what I can tell, yet there are things which have a gradient (Explorer's ribbon tooltips for example) which have existed since Vista:
[img]http://ss.infd.us/2014/12/2014-12-15_20-46-54.png[/img]
Or what about fax + scan, as mentioned here already (same blue ribbon since Vista)
[img]http://ss.infd.us/2014/12/2014-12-15_20-50-50.png[/img]
Personally, I think Windows just needs a massive overhaul of the legacy applications + an icon clearout. Linux distributions and Mac OS handles this fine, and Linux is a free OS. I guess you could really say Windows doesn't really feel worth the money you pay for it?[/QUOTE]
I don't think the value proposition of Windows is all about aesthetics.
I totally agree that Microsoft should get their ass around updating basically everything to the same design language, but I'd hardly call the Fax viewer "essential", and the tool tips are hardly the most jarring thing.
Apple hasn't updated all of its stuff for Yosemite either, though they're definitely much closer. It isn't as obvious either, partly because they went from fairly "gaudy" to somewhat flat, while Microsoft went from gaudy to very flat in one release (though admittedly their development cycle is much longer).
For me the design isn't the most important thing, it's application support (which is lacking on both Linux and Mac OS X) and the UI. I've been using a MBP as my work computer for about 4 months now, and I still really do not jive with Mac OS X. I'm not gonna go on a rant about everything that bothers me about OS X, but to me those issues are much more important than design consistency.
Personally I have nothing against Windows font rendering either, but it definitely differs from what you can get on OS X and Linux.
Edit:
I suppose this might not be clear from my post, but I do understand that just because consistency isn't a thing that bothers me -that- much, that doesn't mean that it isn't important. If Microsoft wants to appeal to the same people that Apple is appealing to, they need to be good at it (and a increasing amount of people care about the design).
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46720819]I don't think the value proposition of Windows is all about aesthetics.
I totally agree that Microsoft should get their ass around updating basically everything to the same design language, but I'd hardly call the Fax viewer "essential", and the tool tips are hardly the most jarring thing.
[/quote]
And so they shouldn't be "essential" however it goes to show that Microsoft aren't really paying attention to detail when they're making major upgrades to their OS.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46720819]
Apple hasn't updated all of its stuff for Yosemite either, though they're definitely much closer. It isn't as obvious either, partly because they went from fairly "gaudy" to somewhat flat, while Microsoft went from gaudy to very flat in one release (though admittedly their development cycle is much longer).
[/quote]
I doubt you'd go through Yosemite and find as many inconsistencies in the built in software as you can find in Windows (I also noticed another one, the tooltips for minimise/maximise/close have yellow backgrounds, unlike anything else on the system).
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46720819]
For me the design isn't the most important thing, it's application support (which is lacking on both Linux and Mac OS X) and the UI. I've been using a MBP as my work computer for about 4 months now, and I still really do not jive with Mac OS X. I'm not gonna go on a rant about everything that bothers me about OS X, but to me those issues are much more important than design consistency.
[/quote]
Linux is starting to get more popular, though I'm not sure what you mean by application support (are you on about library versions, or developers supporting Linux?) A lot of Windows software can be run under WINE. I can't speak for Mac OS as I've not used it that much.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46720819]
Personally I have nothing against Windows font rendering either, but it definitely differs from what you can get on OS X and Linux.[/QUOTE]
Font rendering doesn't seem to be an issue, it's been consistent as far as I can tell. ClearType seems to work for me, I don't have any issues reading text on the screen.
[QUOTE=Mors Quaedam;46720868]And so they shouldn't be "essential" however it goes to show that Microsoft aren't really paying attention to detail when they're making major upgrades to their OS.[/quote]
Again I'm not disagreeing, .Lain just called Fax Viewer essential, and that kinda stuck with me for some reason when responding to your argument. I'd argue that the entirety of Metro is pretty consistent, and that might be why some applications like Fax Viewer and Photo Viewer were not high on the redesign priority list (since they now got a Metro equivalent). As I stated though, I agree that Microsoft should get around that clean-up.
[quote]
I doubt you'd go through Yosemite and find as many inconsistencies in the built in software as you can find in Windows (I also noticed another one, the tooltips for minimise/maximise/close have yellow backgrounds, unlike anything else on the system).
[/quote]
You won't, no, and that's what I wrote. There is however still quite a few, and while we're much closer to the release of Yosemite compared to that of Windows 8, the design direction for Yosemite was also less of a deviation compared to Windows 8.
[quote]
Linux is starting to get more popular, though I'm not sure what you mean by application support (are you on about library versions, or developers supporting Linux?) A lot of Windows software can be run under WINE. I can't speak for Mac OS as I've not used it that much.
[/quote]
What I mean by application support is that in my experience, it's much harder finding equivalents for Windows programs on Mac OS X compared to the other way around. I'm not a very advanced PC user, but for the general population, more stuff is definitely going to run on Windows. And games, of course. I can't really speak for Linux, though, so there's that.
[quote]
Font rendering doesn't seem to be an issue, it's been consistent as far as I can tell. ClearType seems to work for me, I don't have any issues reading text on the screen.[/QUOTE]
Some people rave about font rendering, but I don't really think it's much of an issue either. Again, you kinda got the combined You/.Lain reply.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46721068]Again I'm not disagreeing, .Lain just called Fax Viewer essential, and that kinda stuck with me for some reason when responding to your argument. I'd argue that the entirety of Metro is pretty consistent, and that might be why some applications like Fax Viewer and Photo Viewer were not high on the redesign priority list (since they now got a Metro equivalent). As I stated though, I agree that Microsoft should get around that clean-up.
[/quote]
Yeah, I think they wanted to push Metro out quickly so perhaps that's why they missed it. No excuse though (not disagreeing here!)
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46721068]
You won't, no, and that's what I wrote. There is however still quite a few, and while we're much closer to the release of Yosemite compared to that of Windows 8, the design direction for Yosemite was also less of a deviation compared to Windows 8.
[/quote]
True, I don't know too much about Mac OS as I said so I can't really say anything about it. From what I've seen, it's done the same thing iOS did (iOS 6 --> iOS 7) - going flat and transparent.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46721068]
What I mean by application support is that in my experience, it's much harder finding equivalents for Windows programs on Mac OS X compared to the other way around. I'm not a very advanced PC user, but for the general population, more stuff is definitely going to run on Windows. And games, of course. I can't really speak for Linux, though, so there's that.
[/quote]
That's something I noticed a lot when using Linux, there are things which have no real Linux native equivalent (although Linux tends to have its own versions of things which work just as well, simple things like a scan/fax software or a calculator).
Though this is really something which hugely varies depending on what you use your computer for. People who play a lot of games will stick with Windows, programmers tend to use Linux (though not always) and people in the Media industry tend to use Mac OS, those are the general stereotypes.
i haven't ever seen anyone on windows 8 use the metro equivalents to those outdated applications that still exist. a lot of people use fax and scan, and the old photo viewer is the default still
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline]
Yosemite and iOS 7 were about a lot more than going flat and having neat colours, it was designed ground up to be concise and user friendly, which it is. clearer font choices, better contrast and context through panel blurring etc.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;46718864]3DTV's are a gimmick and never gained traction, and is incomperable to touchscreens. You're flat out ignoring reality. Touchscreens are extremely common pieces of technology. Majority of smartphones have them, ATMs have them, etc.[/QUOTE]I didn't mention smartphones at all, where'd you get that from? Name one touchscreen laptop that was useful?
[editline]16th December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=coolgame8013;46718887]I used a Smartphone to write this message out soo uhh, what gimmick?[/QUOTE]That's got nothing to do with a touchscreen flogbook.. I mean notebook.
[editline]16th December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=paul simon;46719050]Touchscreens are actually extremely useful, and if you say they're a gimmick then anything can be a gimmick.[/QUOTE]Not on a device that already has a keyboard and trackpad.
[QUOTE=RoboChimp2;46723463]Name one touchscreen laptop that was useful?[/QUOTE]
The Lenovo Yoga is a very useful touchscreen laptop.
Usefulness is relative though, some people will find it useful other won't. Why bother arguing over that?
[QUOTE=RoboChimp2;46723463]That's got nothing to do with a touchscreen flogbook.. I mean notebook.[/QUOTE]
What is that even supposed to mean?
[QUOTE=.Lain;46721539]i haven't ever seen anyone on windows 8 use the metro equivalents to those outdated applications that still exist. a lot of people use fax and scan, and the old photo viewer is the default still
[editline]15th December 2014[/editline]
Yosemite and iOS 7 were about a lot more than going flat and having neat colours, it was designed ground up to be concise and user friendly, which it is. clearer font choices, better contrast and context through panel blurring etc.[/QUOTE]
I was just saying that Microsoft did actually design something entirely new, it just had nothing to do with the desktop. GarageBand is also used by many, and it still has skeumorphic elements all over the place - it's not core software (and it'll probably be updated in the next release), but the difference is I've seen a lot of people use GarageBand, and personally I've never ever even opened the Fax Viewer.
Windows 8 was about much more than just going flat and having neat colours as well. So Windows 8 was designed ground-up to be user-unfriendly or what? Apple's made a lot of software that is hard for me to wrap my head around - it's not always immediately obvious to me why I can't do this or that. Take a look at the control panel on iOS (less so on OS X), it's just a mess. If you have a "General settings", you messed up to be honest.
my point is that metro is a good interface. but it's implementation in windows is half arsed. OS X' and iOS 7's control center interfaces are much more organized and intiuitive than window's interface in 8, which is split in to various metro and non metro elements. I still can't do a lot of basic maintenance operations without seeing Vista style UI etc.
[editline]16th December 2014[/editline]
Yosemite has problems, but that's besides the point. Windows has greater, more glaring problems that are often brought up by journalists and enthusiasts alike
[QUOTE=paul simon;46724319]The Lenovo Yoga is a very useful touchscreen laptop.
Usefulness is relative though, some people will find it useful other won't. Why bother arguing over that?
What is that even supposed to mean?[/QUOTE]Well touchscreen laptops weren't such a great idea.
and yes, metro did have user friendliness problems, as proven by the incredibly slow adaptation and negative response to the interface
Windows 10 solves a lot of those problems, but it doesn't fix some of the big ones yet. why do so many of these old style applications still exist when there are perfectly good metro alternatives, that can even be windowed now? i would almost guarantee that microsoft aren't going to remove these old applications, or update them. the Modern UI alternatives sometimes lack functionality too, which means people resort to either using 3rd party tools or using the legacy vista style applications, which totally breaks design consistency throughout the OS.
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