[QUOTE=GunFox;47166928]Bring back the goddamn nightstick. I understand that a baton is easier to carry, but the nightstick/tonfa is a defensive fighting weapon. It is designed to let you engage at melee range against a melee armed opponent. A baton has little to no defensive capability. If the guy has a weapon other than a firearm AND you have a sufficient number of officers, you beat them into submission, you don't shoot them.
People may resist a taser, but the next stop needs to be the night stick and potentially broken limbs, not fucking bullets. Especially given that handgun rounds simply don't physically have enough force to stop someone from doing anything. It is why "shooting to wound" with handgun cartridges is strongly frowned upon it doesn't do anything in the short term, and in the long term it may be just as fatal. Meanwhile if you break their arm, they are physically prevented from continuing an assault, but they will almost certainly survive and probably will heal with limited long term damage.
People can resist tasers, oc spray, and even non immediately fatal gunshot wounds, but nobody outside of PCP users are going to be unphased by broken bones.
It sounds barbaric, but currently we just seem to skip from taser to bullets. I'd prefer people have broken bones over getting a body bag.[/QUOTE]
What do you think the intention of this projectile is.
It's so much larger and heavier than a bullet, it's not like it's magically accelerating to bullet speeds, it has as much energy as a bullet spread over a much larger area.
This shot is designed to break bones and incapacitate. Obviously if you shoot someone in the head with this it's going to cause issues, but if you hit centre of mass or an arm it's going to break bones quite easily without any penetration.
IE it does everything you want it to and on top of that lethal follow up shots can be made if the suspect isn't incapacitated/returns fire.
This *is* the stage in between a taser and bullets. It's simple physics, a heavier, larger projectile with the same energy as a 9mm round is going to penetrate much less and do less damage overall.
A 9mm round has 500~J of energy. I did some maths and that's the same energy as a baseball travelling at 60km/h (37 mph) and that's assuming no energy is lost when the bullet hits the attachment
The projectile they're firing is somewhere between a bullet and a baseball I'd imagine but everyones freaking out about this as though it's going to be hitting the person at the same speed as the bullet would which is bullshit. It's going to hurt like fuck but it's not going to fucking kill you.
[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;47169627]What do you think the intention of this projectile is.
It's so much larger and heavier than a bullet, it's not like it's magically accelerating to bullet speeds, it has as much energy as a bullet spread over a much larger area.
This shot is designed to break bones and incapacitate. Obviously if you shoot someone in the head with this it's going to cause issues, but if you hit centre of mass or an arm it's going to break bones quite easily without any penetration.
IE it does everything you want it to and on top of that lethal follow up shots can be made if the suspect isn't incapacitated/returns fire.
This *is* the stage in between a taser and bullets. It's simple physics, a heavier, larger projectile with the same energy as a 9mm round is going to penetrate much less and do less damage overall.
A 9mm round has 500~J of energy. I did some maths and that's the same energy as a baseball travelling at 60km/h (37 mph) and that's assuming no energy is lost when the bullet hits the attachment
The projectile they're firing is somewhere between a bullet and a baseball I'd imagine but everyones freaking out about this as though it's going to be hitting the person at the same speed as the bullet would which is bullshit. It's going to hurt like fuck but it's not going to fucking kill you.[/QUOTE]
It's a terrible idea. Absolutely terrible. It's going to get people killed by accident when the stressed out, pumped up officer involuntarily has his fingers twitching on the trigger because of the adrenaline and his heart rate, and pumps two or three more bullets into the person he's trying to incapacitate. For a full explanation of that phenomena and why it's nearly impossible to control, I made a post on the first page. You never, EVER want to have a so-called 'less lethal' option that will require officers to fire a bullet out of their guns, whether or not that bullet is expected to propel someone's half-baked idea of a stupid metal-covered ball. Because those guns are semi-automatic.
[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;47169627]What do you think the intention of this projectile is.
It's so much larger and heavier than a bullet, it's not like it's magically accelerating to bullet speeds, it has as much energy as a bullet spread over a much larger area.
This shot is designed to break bones and incapacitate. Obviously if you shoot someone in the head with this it's going to cause issues, but if you hit centre of mass or an arm it's going to break bones quite easily without any penetration.
IE it does everything you want it to and on top of that lethal follow up shots can be made if the suspect isn't incapacitated/returns fire.
This *is* the stage in between a taser and bullets. It's simple physics, a heavier, larger projectile with the same energy as a 9mm round is going to penetrate much less and do less damage overall.
A 9mm round has 500~J of energy. I did some maths and that's the same energy as a baseball travelling at 60km/h (37 mph) and that's assuming no energy is lost when the bullet hits the attachment
The projectile they're firing is somewhere between a bullet and a baseball I'd imagine but everyones freaking out about this as though it's going to be hitting the person at the same speed as the bullet would which is bullshit. It's going to hurt like fuck but it's not going to fucking kill you.[/QUOTE]
A larger round with the same energy as a 9mm is going to do very little. Bullets only exert as much force forwards as they do backwards. Does a 9mm pocket pistol even hurt when you shoot one? They have almost no surface area to distribute the force and yet they don't even bruise you.
Either this penetrates and causes severe injury anyways, or it fails to penetrate and accomplishes nothing. Meanwhile a taser is excruciating and is the very epitome of pain compliance. The next step is to physically disable the attacker, which is something this will fail to do.
[QUOTE=GunFox;47169759]A larger round with the same energy as a 9mm is going to do very little. Bullets only exert as much force forwards as they do backwards. Does a 9mm pocket pistol even hurt when you shoot one? They have almost no surface area to distribute the force and yet they don't even bruise you.
Either this penetrates and causes severe injury anyways, or it fails to penetrate and accomplishes nothing. Meanwhile a taser is excruciating and is the very epitome of pain compliance. The next step is to physically disable the attacker, which is something this will fail to do.[/QUOTE]
1. It's less energy than a 9mm, but
2. Have you ever been shot with a beanbag round or riot control rubber rounds? I assure you it is significantly more incapacitory than the recoil from those weapons. I don't see why you're bringing up the recoil because that's a terrible argument, the momentum (not force, since momentum is force over time) is the same but the time in which it is applied, the surface area, and elasticity are entirely different.
Hit someone with a big enough slug and even with a relatively low kinetic energy it will likely stop them. No guarantees, but a heavy, slow-moving object with lots of momentum yet little energy is exactly what a nightstick or baton is and they're effective tools for non-lethal compliance.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47171728]1. It's less energy than a 9mm, but
2. Have you ever been shot with a beanbag round or riot control rubber rounds? I assure you it is significantly more incapacitory than the recoil from those weapons. I don't see why you're bringing up the recoil because that's a terrible argument, the momentum (not force, since momentum is force over time) is the same but the time in which it is applied, the surface area, and elasticity are entirely different.
Hit someone with a big enough slug and even with a relatively low kinetic energy it will likely stop them. No guarantees, but a heavy, slow-moving object with lots of momentum yet little energy is exactly what a nightstick or baton is and they're effective tools for non-lethal compliance.[/QUOTE]
Riot rounds are fired from shotguns or grenade launchers. If you fire a shotgun from the wrong position, the recoil can actually hurt you pretty bad, so it is unsurprising that beanbag rounds hurt like hell. 9mm has no such limitations.
I use recoil because it is a rough estimator of the forward force.
[QUOTE=archangel125;47162149]Are you telling me your department trains you to not always shoot for center mass? Sounds completely ridiculous to me. Our departments up here in Canada train us to acknowledge that if we ever have to use a gun, we've no option but to use lethal force to stop a threat. An officer who shoots for an extremity like an arm or a leg to neutralize a threat is acting against that training. We're taught that guns are designed to kill, and if things have gotten to the point when there's no other option but to kill, we employ them. Once the threat is neutralized, whether the person is alive or not, CPR is started and an ambulance is immediately called for a trained medic to make that call and/or provide treatment. (Since police officers, at least over here, are not qualified to determine whether a person is alive or dead, unless they're cut in half or beheaded)
[editline]17th February 2015[/editline]
They're not considered 'an option' for neutralizing a threat, they're considered the last resort when there's nothing else left. Officers are trained to aim every shot fired from a sidearm to kill.
The reason this training is in place is to get officers to keep the gravity of what they're doing in mind whenever they have to draw their gun, to drive home the fact that if you're forced to fire it, you're trying to kill.[/QUOTE]
Your departments are dumb, then.
Like, if you have the ability to not kill someone and still stop them, don't fucking kill them.
[QUOTE=gk99;47182478]Your departments are dumb, then.
Like, if you have the ability to not kill someone and still stop them, don't fucking kill them.[/QUOTE]
Sidearms lack the joules of energy necessary to stop a human being reliably unless you hit a vital organ. Brain, spine, heart. Those are the only three things you can hit to near instantly stop a person when using a handgun.
Shotguns are another matter. With their standard loads, you can't really place a shot that isn't likely to be fatal, but with things like beanbag rounds, you can aim for extremities and potentially disable them. No chest shots though, bags can break ribs or rupture internal organs.
But handguns are a deadly force only option.
[QUOTE=gk99;47182478]Your departments are dumb, then.
Like, if you have the ability to not kill someone and still stop them, don't fucking kill them.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you understand how guns work. Or have a reading disability. There's a reason guns are a last resort. It's so that police can exhaust every other possible option to stop a person non-lethally. Canadian cops don't pull their guns and start firing as soon as they see someone. I know it's hard to grasp, but real life isn't like GTA V.
[QUOTE=MR-X;47161856][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM[/media]
Yeah, let me put this little ball thing on my gun so I can try and use less lethal force against someone who is using lethal force.
Guns are for deadly force, if the situation does not require deadly force then why pull out a firearm, place this goofy device on it and use it? If the situation needs deadly force why try and use less lethal?
Here is an idea, i know people hate cops and want to blame them for all their woes. But if you don't present yourself as a threat to an officer you're not going to get shot. Listen, Comply, and use the courts to fight your case. The street isn't a court room and the cops #1 priority is safety and control.
Most cases it takes two to tango, cops only react to your actions.
You can go into the realm of shit cops who shoot people unjustified, well that is just that they're shit people and deserved to be charged as such.[/QUOTE]
Did you even WATCH the damn thing ? It's for when you have time ( 3 seconds + ) not SPLIT DECISIONS.
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