Boy ‘living life entirely as a girl’ removed from mother's care by UK judge - Polidicks

[QUOTE=niiiiiiiiok;51245565]Way to jump to conclusions, on me believing the existance of transgenders I was talking about how overall this is most def. the mother forcing this shit on her son, and has probably fucked him up good[/QUOTE] I did not jump to such conclusions. I'm giving you benefit of the doubt; I merely proposed a situation in which you'd actually have a reason to treat this topic so lightly as to immediately condemn a child's mother to prison without having the full details. This is not "most def" anything without talking to the father, mother, child, and physicians involved.

By far the most suspicious part about this whole thing is that she seemingly didn't take the kid to a specialist at any given point, which to me makes it sound like she didn't want to potentially be disappointed in hearing that her son was in fact just a regular boy.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51245125]Well, why don't you tell that to mainstream transgender advocates? I agree it doesn't have an association, you don't need to convince me.[/QUOTE] Hm what? I have never seen a transgender person talking about what girls and boys, regardless of being trans, should do or like. In fact that's one thing they fight against

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51245599]By far the most suspicious part about this whole thing is that she seemingly didn't take the kid to a specialist at any given point, which to me makes it sound like she didn't want to potentially be disappointed in hearing that her son was in fact just a regular boy.[/QUOTE] Part of me feels the article must be missing some details. [QUOTE]This story is about a family that Mermaids has supported for nearly 3 years. At no point has the child been coerced or forced in any way, Mum has simply listened. This is a huge step back for gender non conforming children. A judge has destroyed a family with no actual evidence that the Mum has made her child live or present as female. The Mum has been denied any contact with her child for over 3 months, and has been told that ongoing contact will be indirect. She has effectively been punished for listening and supporting her child. I am deeply saddened as an individual to see this happen, but for all our parents struggling to support their children and achieve the best outcomes, this is a huge blow[/QUOTE] There's a writeup about it here: [url]http://www.cheryl-morgan.com/?p=23519[/url] I don't know the full details, I wasn't in the hearing and neither were any of us. But there's no fuckin way you can get a child to identify as another gender without anybody noticing for months. Getting seen at your GP as another gender when you're trans is difficult enough as it is, how come this just "happened"? Seems like a really badly or quickly done article. [QUOTE]There have been 2 independent gender specialists who have reviewed the family and agreed that Mum is not responsible for her child’s gender expression.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;51245634]Part of me feels the article must be missing some details. There's a writeup about it here: [url]http://www.cheryl-morgan.com/?p=23519[/url] I don't know the full details, I wasn't in the hearing and neither were any of us. But there's no fuckin way you can get a child to identify as another gender without anybody noticing for months. Getting seen at your GP as another gender when you're trans is difficult enough as it is, how come this just "happened"? Seems like a really badly or quickly done article.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't take that cute little blog as a good source, more than any british tabloids it's very obvious the person who wrote it is biased against any thought that maybe the mom might have been fucking up the kid for these past few years "Oh no the judge destroyed the family b-boo hoo" christ

Good, this was nothing short of child abuse and the judge made the right determination. The fact of the matter is when you are that age you can't decide if you want to be a astronaut or a cowboy let alone what gender you want to live as, before people jump on me for that consider this one of my friends has a son who is super hyperactive he wants nothing but to bounce of the walls and play ninja turtles and wrestle his brother he also like to play tea parties and dress up in the neighbours elsa costume from frozen. The point is he's just a kid and likes to play and just because he likes the stereotypically "feminine" play forms from time to time does that mean his parents should decide he should live as a girl? Definitely not. It's up to parents to make decisions for kids because they are incapable of making the right ones themselves they would eat icecream every night for dinner if given the option because they don't know what's good for them and a parent encouraging the childs body dismorphia (hating his penis) is nothing short of child abuse.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245716]Good, this was nothing short of child abuse and the judge made the right determination. The fact of the matter is when you are that age you can't decide if you want to be a astronaut or a cowboy let alone what gender you want to live as, before people jump on me for that consider this one of my friends has a son who is super hyperactive he wants nothing but to bounce of the walls and play ninja turtles and wrestle his brother he also like to play tea parties and dress up in the neighbours elsa costume from frozen. The point is he's just a kid and likes to play and just because he likes the stereotypically "feminine" play forms from time to time does that mean his parents should decide he should live as a girl? Definitely not. It's up to parents to make decisions for kids because they are incapable of making the right ones themselves they would eat icecream every night for dinner if given the option because they don't know what's good for them and a parent encouraging the childs body dismorphia (hating his penis) is nothing short of child abuse.[/QUOTE] Except there isn't harm in this aside from other people being cunts. They won't stuff you with hormones at that age, at best you'll be given puberty blockers to delay puberty IIRC. Also this is more than just "from time to time." You also seem to have literally zero faith in children's judgment. If a kid openly hates being male, presents feminine, and does so for years, yeah I'm going to be inclined to trust them, especially if therapists give their blessing.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245716]Good, this was nothing short of child abuse and the judge made the right determination. The fact of the matter is when you are that age you can't decide if you want to be a astronaut or a cowboy let alone what gender you want to live as, before people jump on me for that consider this one of my friends has a son who is super hyperactive he wants nothing but to bounce of the walls and play ninja turtles and wrestle his brother he also like to play tea parties and dress up in the neighbours elsa costume from frozen. The point is he's just a kid and likes to play and just because he likes the stereotypically "feminine" play forms from time to time does that mean his parents should decide he should live as a girl? Definitely not. It's up to parents to make decisions for kids because they are incapable of making the right ones themselves they would eat icecream every night for dinner if given the option because they don't know what's good for them and a parent encouraging the childs body dismorphia (hating his penis) is nothing short of child abuse.[/QUOTE] So where does it say that the kid was forced into living like a girl and that the mother was encouraging the body dismorphia? I didn't read anything that explicitly mentions what the child's opinion on the whole matter is and it seems that we won't learn it either by the judge's ruling.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51245741]Except there isn't harm in this aside from other people being cunts. They won't stuff you with hormones at that age, at best you'll be given puberty blockers to delay puberty IIRC. Also this is more than just "from time to time." You also seem to have literally zero faith in children's judgment. If a kid openly hates being male, presents feminine, and does so for years, yeah I'm going to be inclined to trust them, especially if therapists give their blessing.[/QUOTE] I have 2 kids myself and there is plastic plugs in all my power outlets, why? Because kids like to try and jam objects into them so tell me should I trust my children's judgments that forks belong in power outlets? Of course not. Kids rely on their parents to make the right decisions. The kid was in the full time care of the mother, she made the determination that since he enjoys feminine forms of play thay he should live as a girl, she encourages this behaviour over the long term because she is convinced he is a girl in a boys body the boy simply grows up believing that too. [editline]22nd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Pie_Tony;51245772]So where does it say that the kid was forced into living like a girl and that the mother was encouraging the body dismorphia? I didn't read anything that explicitly mentions what the child's opinion on the whole matter is and it seems that we won't learn it either by the judge's ruling.[/QUOTE] Didn't say forced but she encouraged the behaviour and him being a young child is easily influenced but as soon as he's in a different environment and is allowed "masculine " play he immediately adopts it, that shows he is a kid who just wants to play in any form which is fine but the mother made the wrong decision and funnily enough assumed his gender. He says he hates his penis probably because he saw mum in the shower and its different, the mother gives him a reason for this "you are a girl in a boys body honey thats why your not meant to have a penis" this is encouraging body dismorphia. It's safe to assume conversations went like this.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245773]I have 2 kids myself and there is plastic plugs in all my power outlets, why? Because kids like to try and jam objects into them so tell me should I trust my children's judgments that forks belong in power outlets? Of course not. Kids rely on their parents to make the right decisions. The kid was in the full time care of the mother, she made the determination that since he enjoys feminine forms of play thay he should live as a girl, she encourages this behaviour over the long term because she is convinced he is a girl in a boys body the boy simply grows up believing that too.[/QUOTE] But that's wrong, you can't be made to believe you're trans. Infact this is one of the reasons why transsexuality is considered a legitamate health issue is because a boy being brought up as a girl has been attempted before with quite terrible consequences. And the point of the matter is purely the kid's freedom of expression rather than anything else, infact the reason the judge is purely satisfied the case is concluded is because the kid likes superheroes and spongebob.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245773]I have 2 kids myself and there is plastic plugs in all my power outlets, why? Because kids like to try and jam objects into them so tell me should I trust my children's judgments that forks belong in power outlets? Of course not. Kids rely on their parents to make the right decisions. The kid was in the full time care of the mother, she made the determination that since he enjoys feminine forms of play thay he should live as a girl, she encourages this behaviour over the long term because she is convinced he is a girl in a boys body the boy simply grows up believing that too.[/QUOTE] What an extrapolation, when I criticize having zero faith, that means children always are right with perfect judgment. If it was just enjoying feminine forms of play then yeah you might have a case. We can't tell for sure with the article. Being trans is very intrinsic to the person, it's not a light mutable thing like "I wanna be an astronaut" and at present there isn't harm in letting the kid live like that. There is harm in applying force in one way or the other, demanding the kid live as a boy (which was evidently what the courts want) or demanding the kid live as a girl (which, we don't know if the mother is pushing at all.)

[QUOTE=Butthurter;51245068]how detached do you have to be to think this[/QUOTE] I think the point was that it's striking in the face of everything the mother was saying, and was just poorly contextualized. I've seen a couple stories like this where uber feminist parents start shoveling this shit on their children, with results like this. I can't imagine what kind of issues this kid would have down the line if left with that woman [QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245773]I have 2 kids myself and there is plastic plugs in all my power outlets, why? Because kids like to try and jam objects into them so tell me should I trust my children's judgments that forks belong in power outlets? Of course not. Kids rely on their parents to make the right decisions. The kid was in the full time care of the mother, she made the determination that since he enjoys feminine forms of play thay he should live as a girl, she encourages this behaviour over the long term because she is convinced he is a girl in a boys body the boy simply grows up believing that too. [/QUOTE] Holy shit dude, no. You're saying this woman was entirely right to dictate every part of her "daughter's" identity, which is clearly not what the kid wanted in the end. This isn't like some uber tiger mom who has their kids on a second by second schedule to produce the ultimate child, at least there's actual arguments for that, this is someone trying to construct a new identity and destroy and old identity, in the face of all facts and reason. This kid would be fucked up for life if this had gone on. Identity and self image is so important to a person, and this woman had it in her head that she could just do whatever she wanted to this poor kid. I doubt it was some evil or deliberate intent, but that doesn't change what she did. I'm willing to bet she thought she was doing the right thing, but that excuses nothing. Destruction of identity is genuinely a torture, this is not ok.

[QUOTE=Pie_Tony;51245794]But that's wrong, you can't be made to believe you're trans. Infact this is one of the reasons why transsexuality is considered a legitamate health issue is because a boy being brought up as a girl has been attempted before with quite terrible consequences. And the point of the matter is purely the kid's freedom of expression rather than anything else, infact the reason the judge is purely satisfied the case is concluded is because the kid likes superheroes and spongebob.[/QUOTE] Your exactly right, and because of the gender stereotype on forms of play (girls dress as princess boys play with trucks) the boys mother decided her son was trans gender just because he wants to play with "girly" things in cases like this its safe to assume the mother pushed in a certain direction after she made up her mind and we both know how that can end and its tragic. Teenage years is where this sort of thing should be decided based on assessment by psychiatrists and then history of playing with "girly" things can and should be taken into consideration. [editline]22nd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51245809]I think the point was that it's striking in the face of everything the mother was saying, and was just poorly contextualized. I've seen a couple stories like this where uber feminist parents start shoveling this shit on their children, with results like this. I can't imagine what kind of issues this kid would have down the line if left with that woman Holy shit dude, no. You're saying this woman was entirely right to dictate every part of her "daughter's" identity, which is clearly not what the kid wanted in the end. This isn't like some uber tiger mom who has their kids on a second by second schedule to produce the ultimate child, at least there's actual arguments for that, this is someone trying to construct a new identity and destroy and old identity, in the face of all facts and reason. This kid would be fucked up for life if this had gone on. Identity and self image is so important to a person, and this woman had it in her head that she could just do whatever she wanted to this poor kid. I doubt it was some evil or deliberate intent, but that doesn't change what she did. I'm willing to bet she thought she was doing the right thing, but that excuses nothing. Destruction of identity is genuinely a torture, this is not ok.[/QUOTE] Mate read my previous posts.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245773]I have 2 kids myself and there is plastic plugs in all my power outlets, why? Because kids like to try and jam objects into them so tell me should I trust my children's judgments that forks belong in power outlets? Of course not. Kids rely on their parents to make the right decisions. The kid was in the full time care of the mother, she made the determination that since he enjoys feminine forms of play thay he should live as a girl, she encourages this behaviour over the long term because she is convinced he is a girl in a boys body the boy simply grows up believing that too. [editline]22nd October 2016[/editline] Didn't say forced but she encouraged the behaviour and him being a young child is easily influenced but as soon as he's in a different environment and is allowed "masculine " play he immediately adopts it, that shows he is a kid who just wants to play in any form which is fine but the mother made the wrong decision and funnily enough assumed his gender. He says he hates his penis probably because he saw mum in the shower and its different, the mother gives him a reason for this "you are a girl in a boys body honey thats why your not meant to have a penis" this is encouraging body dismorphia. It's safe to assume conversations went like this.[/QUOTE] You make it sound like simply allowing a child to express themselves in a transgender way is equivalent to letting them play with power outlets. I'm not saying that the mother did or didn't [I]force[/I] anything. Regardless of this particular case, there isn't anything bad (in-fact quite the opposite) in letting a child choose how to express themselves.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245854] its safe to assume the mother pushed in a certain direction [/QUOTE] Based on what? I fail to see any evidence of that, it sounds like, from what we've been told, that the mother could have simply allowed the child to wear girl's clothes and express themself as a girl. Maybe that's not how it went down but the article doesn't really us anything that clearly indicates that the mother pushed anything.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245854]Teenage years is where this sort of thing should be decided based on assessment by psychiatrists and then history of playing with "girly" things can and should be taken into consideration.[/QUOTE] Teenage years can be too late in stopping what the child would consider permanent bodily damage. We should have psychiatrists make such calls... and not based on "girly things". If psychiatrists based their diagnosis of gender dysphoria on cultural norms like what a kid plays with, I guess every tomboy female mechanic would be hauled off for penis prosthesis.

[QUOTE=bitches;51245868]You make it sound like simply allowing a child to express themselves in a transgender way is equivalent to letting them play with power outlets. I'm not saying that the mother did or didn't [I]force[/I] anything. Regardless of this particular case, there isn't anything bad (in-fact quite the opposite) in letting a child choose how to express themselves.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry you read it that way but what I mean is kids cant make decisions that affect them the rest of their lives they very often do not know what they want. They rely on parents to make the important decisions. [editline]22nd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;51245882]Based on what? I fail to see any evidence of that, it sounds like, from what we've been told, that the mother could have simply allowed the child to wear girl's clothes and express themself as a girl. Maybe that's not how it went down but the article doesn't really us anything that clearly indicates that the mother pushed anything.[/QUOTE] Based on the assertion by the judge that the mother was completely convinced the kid was transgendered thats part of the facts of this case we do have, are you saying a person who is convinced of something so completely wouldnt correct the child if he changed his mind or thought differently?

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245898]I'm sorry you read it that way but what I mean is kids cant make decisions that affect them the rest of their lives they very often do not know what they want. They rely on parents to make the important decisions.[/QUOTE] If we agree that trained authorities can make the calls that a parent may not (such as a judge), why is it wrong for the parent to get such advice from individuals trained in the topic? There are conflicting reports about whether or not this mother got the child a proper diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Such conflicting reports make it terrible of you to say [I]"Good, this was nothing short of child abuse and the judge made the right determination."[/I]. [quote]Based on the assertion by the judge that the mother was completely convinced the kid was transgendered thats part of the facts of this case we do have, are you saying a person who is convinced of something so completely wouldnt correct the child if he changed his mind or thought differently?[/quote] An assertion by a judge who thinks Spongebob is a man's cartoon. A responsible parent convinced that their child is transgender would value freedom of expression, male or otherwise.

[QUOTE=bitches;51245884]Teenage years can be too late in stopping what the child would consider permanent bodily damage. We should have psychiatrists make such calls... and not based on "girly things". If psychiatrists based their diagnosis of gender dysphoria on cultural norms like what a kid plays with, I guess every tomboy female mechanic would be hauled off for penis prosthesis.[/QUOTE] Earlier I mentioned that playing with girly and boyish things is a social construct and that kids just want to play and that is why girly is hyphenated, dont straw man. [editline]22nd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=bitches;51245938]If we agree that trained authorities can make the calls that a parent may not (such as a judge), why is it wrong for the parent to get such advice from individuals trained in the topic? There are conflicting reports about whether or not this mother got the child a proper diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Such conflicting reports make it terrible of you to say [I]"Good, this was nothing short of child abuse and the judge made the right determination."[/I]. An assertion by a judge who thinks Spongebob is a man's cartoon. A responsible parent convinced that their child is transgender would value freedom of expression, male or otherwise.[/QUOTE] And your right we don't have all the facts and the judge does, so based on his judgment the mother did not get the kid the correct assessment (the cartoon stuff is clearly just a small part of the judgement).

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245947]Earlier I mentioned that playing with girly and boyish things is a social construct and that kids just want to play and that is why girly is hyphenated, dont straw man. [editline]22nd October 2016[/editline] And your right we don't have all the facts and the judge does, so based on his judgment the mother did not get the kid the correct assessment (the cartoon stuff is clearly just a small part of the judgement).[/QUOTE] I'm inclined to question the judgement of a judge that takes spongebob into account at all. Judges are not infallible. I'm not arguing about this particular case in regards to knowns and unknowns. I pointed out that there are [I]conflicting reports[/I] over whether there was a proper diagnosis or not, and how given such conflict it is terrible to jump straight to calling this child abuse.

[QUOTE=bitches;51246003]I'm inclined to question the judgement of a judge that takes spongebob into account at all. Judges are not infallible. I'm not arguing about this particular case in regards to knowns and unknowns. I pointed out that there are [I]conflicting reports[/I] over whether there was a proper diagnosis or not, and how given such conflict it is terrible to jump straight to calling this child abuse.[/QUOTE] The full judgement is in the op now feel free to have a read through you will see that the article concerntrated on the cartoons and other minor parts of the judgement in order to be inflammatory. You will see from the investigation that this was a clear case of abuse and that removal from the mother was the right decision.

[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51246024]The full judgement is in the op now feel free to have a read through you will see that the article concerntrated on the cartoons and other minor parts of the judgement in order to be inflammatory. You will see from the investigation that this was a clear case of abuse and that removal from the mother was the right decision.[/QUOTE] and the gender specialists and the charities that were involved? i guess they were just sjw stooges to make the dude look bad or something

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;51246075]and the gender specialists and the charities that were involved? i guess they were just sjw stooges to make the dude look bad or something[/QUOTE] The mother lied about the boys diagnosis of transgendered and when he finally did get to see specialists he clearly identified as a boy and prefered to live as one. Have a read through the judgement to see what happened.

Technically, The capacity to perform informed consent usually is around 12 (varies in countries), so it therein lays in the parents hand to provide support for the child in their best interest until that age. Proj3ct_ZeRo is correct in more ways than one, but once they have reached that age (which isn't exclusive to age maturity) where they should have autonomy and consent, only then should they have the ability to make somewhat mature individual choices, and choices about themselves as a person legally. Parents who abuse this interim responsibility should be punished though - whether it be forcing a gender or refusing vaccinations.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51245496]They may use coded language to do so, but when you assert that you can determine the gender of someone (and whether or not they have gender dysphoria) through examining if they have stereotypically 'masculine' or 'feminine' interests or disposition, you are de facto (and accidentally, and also bizarrely at odds with the rest of the feminist worldview) arguing that there should be gender norms.[/QUOTE] My transgender friend was born male and has male interests, but she still wants to be a girl. I'm pretty sure they'd completely disagree with literally all of your argument.

[QUOTE=Paramud;51245169]Most "mainstream transgender advocates" don't really argue that there are or should be gender norms.[/QUOTE] I'm trans and I like games, metal, and other traditionally 'male' things. Being a girl means nothing more than you're a girl. I don't have to like anything. We don't revoke some 'girl card' if you're not being 'feminine enough'. I've only ever seen cis people try to do that.

Point being, nobody should be fucking deciding this shit for kids, let them go their own way on gendered things. Educate them, don't shame them or force them. If they still feel this way by time puberty starts showing then support them and help them transition. Calling this child abuse is taking it a little too far, as she was simply trying to support their child in the best way. Ignorance at most, but nowhere near child abuse.

I know a lot of people are rushing to call it gender dysphoria, but this is a seven year old. This isn't something that can be diagnosed so early. Most people change drastically when they're young.

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51246857]I'm trans and I like games, metal, and other traditionally 'male' things. Being a girl means nothing more than you're a girl. I don't have to like anything. We don't revoke some 'girl card' if you're not being 'feminine enough'. I've only ever seen cis people try to do that.[/QUOTE] No surprise since you're a male once. Unless you're a FtM but from your comment it seemed you're a MtF.

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;51246883]I know a lot of people are rushing to call it gender dysphoria, but this is a seven year old. This isn't something that can be diagnosed so early. Most people change drastically when they're young.[/QUOTE] I bet if I was 7 and not shamed you could ask me and I would tell you that I'm a girl. Not every trans person has these feelings at a young age but some people do. I remember when I was younger than 7 praying to god to make me a girl. Kids understand a lot more than you think they do.