Boy ‘living life entirely as a girl’ removed from mother's care by UK judge - Polidicks

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[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245716]Good, this was nothing short of child abuse and the judge made the right determination. The fact of the matter is when you are that age you can't decide if you want to be a astronaut or a cowboy let alone what gender you want to live as, before people jump on me for that consider this one of my friends has a son who is super hyperactive he wants nothing but to bounce of the walls and play ninja turtles and wrestle his brother he also like to play tea parties and dress up in the neighbours elsa costume from frozen. The point is he's just a kid and likes to play and just because he likes the stereotypically "feminine" play forms from time to time does that mean his parents should decide he should live as a girl? Definitely not. It's up to parents to make decisions for kids because they are incapable of making the right ones themselves they would eat icecream every night for dinner if given the option because they don't know what's good for them and a parent encouraging the childs body dismorphia (hating his penis) is nothing short of child abuse.[/QUOTE] What, no that's not how it works at all. Knowing you're trans, or rather knowing something is wrong with your body can happen at any age. Quite often it happens as early as five or six and for others it can happen into their teens during the onset of puberty or even late into adult life. And when a child is upset about their body at that age, it's better to talk to them and let them decide how they choose to live. A lot of the problems from being trans stem from societal pressures, when you are seen as a boy you are expected to conform to the things society seems as boyish. When you're young parents will scold you often for doing things "boys don't do that" and from then on they start inferring the message that there is something wrong with you and that [I]you're[/I] the one at fault for behaving as such. And over time you adapt, you pick up mannerisms, behaviours, you even slowly learn how they think but at the end of the day it still doesn't feel right and is like you're living a lie. And as a transperson myself I can say at the end of the day even when you do come out and transition some of those traits do stay, and to be entirely honest not all of them are a negative either (I can clock a guy eyeing a partner of mine up from the other side of the room and move to intercept him before he can even work out how I knew) but I really wish that I had felt more comfortable just being myself instead of waiting until family members were out to play housewife with my sister's Barbies and so forth. That didn't mean I didn't like videogames, or running around with toy guns. Girls can like the things boys do and vice versa but some can be quite telling to a persons gender identity.

I would like to hear what the child has to say on the manner. [quote]However, what is striking is how well [the boy] has settled down.” The judge added: “[B]I have noted from reports that the boy] has become interested in Power Rangers, SpongeBob, superheroes and is constantly finding new interests … It is striking that most of [the boy’s] interests are male-oriented. “I am entirely satisfied, both on the basis of the reports and [the father’s] evidence at this hearing, that he has brought no pressure on (the boy) to pursue masculine interests. [The boy’s] interests and energy are entirely self-motivated.”[/B][/quote] So what? How does this prove at all that the child is not transgender? How is allowing your child to live as a girl even worthy of removal from care? [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;51245773]as soon as he's in a different environment and is allowed "masculine " play he immediately adopts it, that shows he is a kid who just wants to play in any form which is fine but the mother made the wrong decision and funnily enough assumed his gender.[B] He says he hates his penis probably because he saw mum in the shower and its different, the mother gives him a reason for this "you are a girl in a boys body honey thats why your not meant to have a penis" this is encouraging body dismorphia. It's safe to assume conversations went like this[/B].[/QUOTE] You are making assumptions out of your ass m8 "Masculine" and "Feminine" play are [I]mostly[/I] decided by marketing firms, not from biology. Obviously there are some exceptions, but still.

[QUOTE=bitches;51245098]Girls can't like superheroes and action figures? You're acting like that has any relation to genetics at all, which it doesn't.[/QUOTE] It actually does to an extent. Even little teeny toddlers already have clear "gendered" preferences in toys, before they can be manipulated into the patriarchy or whatever, [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;51248047] You are making assumptions out of your ass m8 "Masculine" and "Feminine" play are [I]mostly[/I] decided by marketing firms, not from biology. Obviously there are some exceptions, but still.[/QUOTE] which is why toddler boys tend to prefer mechanical toys with relatively sharp edges, and toddler girls tend to prefer round and soft toys like dolls? Im not even talking like 2 years old, I mean like 8 months old from the research Ive read (which i will produce later if someone reminds me since im on my laptop and doing some work shit atm so not that much time

When I read stories like these, all I can see is "I have a son, but I really wanted a daughter". Seven year olds are in no way capable to decide they're transgender. They barely even know the differences between boys and girls. "Disdain for his penis" my ass. A seven year old doesn't even know what a penis is for. More like "mommy taught me my penis is evil".

[QUOTE=V12US;51248393]When I read stories like these, all I can see is "I have a son, but I really wanted a daughter". Seven year olds are in no way capable to decide they're transgender. They barely even know the differences between boys and girls. "Disdain for his penis" my ass. A seven year old doesn't even know what a penis is for. More like "mommy taught me my penis is evil".[/QUOTE] gender identity forms at around age 2 to 3, from all the literature I've read. kids pick up a lot more than we give them credit

[QUOTE=Paramud;51245169]Most "mainstream transgender advocates" don't really argue that there are or should be gender norms.[/QUOTE] Devil's advocate here then, what defines transgenderism in absence of body dysphoria? [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51246857] Being a girl means nothing more than you're a girl. [/QUOTE] Again, in absence of bodily dysphoria, what does that even mean?

[QUOTE=RobL;51248537]Devil's advocate here then, what defines transgenderism in absence of body dysphoria?[/QUOTE] The occurrence that one was assigned one gender at birth, but then changed that to identify with another.

[QUOTE=Levithan;51248548]but then changed that to identify with another.[/QUOTE] And what were the causes behind that?

[QUOTE=RobL;51248551]And what were the causes behind that?[/QUOTE] Self-reflection, realization that being referred to with different pronouns or that being described as a girl/boy/nonbinary person either fits them better overall as a person or would make them happier in the long run.

[QUOTE=Levithan;51248506]gender identity forms at around age 2 to 3, from all the literature I've read. kids pick up a lot more than we give them credit[/QUOTE] Yep, kids generally form their gender identity by 4. Their transgenderism should be accepted (not forced) if the kid wants to be either a boy or a girl.

[QUOTE=Levithan;51248568]realization that being referred to with different pronouns or that being described as a girl/boy/nonbinary person either fits them better overall[/QUOTE] Fits them better how? The identities of girl/boy/nonbinary must have tangible characteristics for that to make any sense.

[QUOTE]"living life entirely as a girl" "he dressed like a girl" "he appeared to be a girl, both in appearance and in mannerism," "most of [the boy’s] interests are male-oriented" "no pressure on (the boy) to pursue masculine interests."[/QUOTE] When are we going to get rid of these sexist notions?

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51245081]The idea of 'masculine' and 'feminine' interests is one integral to views on transgender people today, the judge is actually using their own ideas to examine the situation.[/QUOTE] The day "masculine" and "feminine" need generalized scare quotes is the day it's all gone too far.

[QUOTE=RobL;51248537] Again, in absence of bodily dysphoria, what does that even mean?[/QUOTE] In the absence? Nothing.

[QUOTE=phygon;51249600]In the absence? Nothing.[/QUOTE] So there is no transgenderism, only bodily dysphoria regarding sexual dimorphism?

[QUOTE=RobL;51250294]So there is no transgenderism, only bodily dysphoria regarding sexual dimorphism?[/QUOTE] What? Being transgender is having gender dysphoria, that's what's essentially universally agreed upon by psychologists.

[QUOTE=phygon;51250355]What? Being transgender is having gender dysphoria[/QUOTE] So gender is nothing but "brain sex"?

[QUOTE=RobL;51250378]So gender is nothing but "brain sex"?[/QUOTE] Yes. It has nothing to do with gender norms. And body dysphoria is not a gender norm thing. It's a "gender doesn't match your sex / body" thing. Unless if you mean "gender norms" as "men and women generally have different body parts", rather than "men and women should act in different ways and dress themselves up in different ways".

[QUOTE=RobL;51250378]So gender is nothing but "brain sex"?[/QUOTE] Pretty much. Not to be confused with Gender Roles, which are what everything else is. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] Obviously for most people brain sex and physical sex line up, but if it did for everybody then transgender people wouldn't exist.

[QUOTE=Last or First;51250427]Yes. It has nothing to do with gender norms. And body dysphoria is not a gender norm thing. It's a "gender doesn't match your sex / body" thing. Unless if you mean "gender norms" as "men and women generally have different body parts", rather than "men and women should act in different ways and dress themselves up in different ways".[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=phygon;51250468]Pretty much. Not to be confused with Gender Roles, which are what everything else is. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] Obviously for most people brain sex and physical sex line up, but if it did for everybody then transgender people wouldn't exist.[/QUOTE] How does this fit in with- Outward expression of masculinity and feminity (i.e. transgender people commonly expressing themselves in ways that pertain to societal ideas of how their gender should act)? Non-binary genders such as pangender or third gender? Also, trans[i]genderism[/i] and [i]gender[/i] dysphoria should be renamed in order to avoid confusion (also #2, are the people responding to me who insisted trangenderism can exist independently of gender dysphoria wrong, then?)

This seems similar to the reason we even have this bullshit "gender" discussion today, which I'd like to remind you all that this concept of gender being different from sex comes from a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer"]sexually abusing pedophile who conducted a completely unethical "experiment" to push his own goals, which eventually drove the participants to suicide.[/URL]

[QUOTE=wystan;51250504]This seems similar to the reason we even have this bullshit "gender" discussion today, which I'd like to remind you all that this concept of gender being different from sex comes from a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer"]sexually abusing pedophile who conducted a completely unethical "experiment" to push his own goals, which eventually drove the participants to suicide.[/URL][/QUOTE] I like how you try and imply because the research bothers you on a moral level, that it's invalid research nah

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51250513]I like how you try and imply because the research bothers you on a moral level, that it's invalid research nah[/QUOTE] Explain to me what part about forcing child siblings to imitate sex acts and then taking pictures of it is valid research.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250520]Explain to me what part about forcing child siblings to imitate sex acts and then taking pictures of it is valid research.[/QUOTE] Again You're using your moral objections to say it's invalid, I didn't say which part, but you are seriously using your own emotional metric(The only metric you care about as demonstrated in the whole Torture debacle with you) as the method to invalidate research. All of the research. Not just that part, his research and actions involving that particular person are certainly controversial and questionable. That does not lead back on to the rest of his research being as dubious as you'd like to claim it as.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250504]This seems similar to the reason we even have this bullshit "gender" discussion today, which I'd like to remind you all that this concept of gender being different from sex comes from a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer"]sexually abusing pedophile who conducted a completely unethical "experiment" to push his own goals, which eventually drove the participants to suicide.[/URL][/QUOTE] This guy thought it was something that you could train into somebody, rather than being intrinsic to the person. I think the fact that the kid went back to living as male rather than female shows that John Money was totally wrong on that part. If anything that validates transgenderism even if he was a sick fuck

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51250533]Again You're using your moral objections to say it's invalid, I didn't say which part, but you are seriously using your own emotional metric(The only metric you care about as demonstrated in the whole Torture debacle with you) as the method to invalidate research. All of the research. Not just that part, his research and actions involving that particular person are certainly controversial and questionable. That does not lead back on to the rest of his research being as dubious as you'd like to claim it as.[/QUOTE] And yet I'm sure you will say that the Veritas videos are bunk because of who it came from right, since you just want to bring in off topic things? His experiments are invalid for plenty of reasons, but I guess child abuse doesn't render an experiment invalid for you does it?

The interesting thing, Wystan, is that this case doesn't prove what you think it proves. It doesn't invalidate all research agreeing that Transgenderism is real. It doesn't do what you think it does. It shows that there are extremes that don't fit into the paradigm. It shows that it isn't as simple as proposed at first, and it shows that our current mentality around it is much different than the one you're posting to act as if that were our mentality. We know that it isn't something you can jsut force onto someone these days. You're saying because Money was wrong in one aspect, he was wrong in all, and that because he was wrong in all, all of our data that agrees with that is based on a lie. Is that the case? That's what you're arguing as far as I can tell. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;51250545]And yet I'm sure you will say that the Veritas videos are bunk because of who it came from right, since you just want to bring in off topic things? His experiments are invalid for plenty of reasons, but I guess child abuse doesn't render an experiment invalid for you does it?[/QUOTE] Honestly pal You look for things to grab onto, whether you understand them or not, that much is clear. Here, you've grabbed on tight, for dear life, on to the concept that transgenderism is wrong, Money was a devious shit so everything he ever worked on was wrong, and everything we regard as right today, is wrong, based on this one little grasp you have. That's not the case. What Money demonstrated, by being such a piece of shit, is that it isn't something you can train or force on to people, and that transgenderism definitely exists as it is not something that people have control over. But you're here, trying to twist this into an argument of bigotry against a group of people you don't understand.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250504]This seems similar to the reason we even have this bullshit "gender" discussion today, which I'd like to remind you all that this concept of gender being different from sex comes from a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer"]sexually abusing pedophile who conducted a completely unethical "experiment" to push his own goals, which eventually drove the participants to suicide.[/URL][/QUOTE] This somehow invalidates other countless researchers?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51250551]The interesting thing, Wystan, is that this case doesn't prove what you think it proves. It doesn't invalidate all research agreeing that Transgenderism is real. It doesn't do what you think it does. It shows that there are extremes that don't fit into the paradigm. It shows that it isn't as simple as proposed at first, and it shows that our current mentality around it is much different than the one you're posting to act as if that were our mentality. We know that it isn't something you can jsut force onto someone these days. You're saying because Money was wrong in one aspect, he was wrong in all, and that because he was wrong in all, all of our data that agrees with that is based on a lie. Is that the case? That's what you're arguing as far as I can tell. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] Honestly pal You look for things to grab onto, whether you understand them or not, that much is clear. Here, you've grabbed on tight, for dear life, on to the concept that transgenderism is wrong, Money was a devious shit so everything he ever worked on was wrong, and everything we regard as right today, is wrong, based on this one little grasp you have. That's not the case. What Money demonstrated, by being such a piece of shit, is that it isn't something you can train or force on to people, and that transgenderism definitely exists as it is not something that people have control over. But you're here, trying to twist this into an argument of bigotry against a group of people you don't understand.[/QUOTE] I fail to see how that proves transgenderism exists as anything other than a mental illness.