Boy ‘living life entirely as a girl’ removed from mother's care by UK judge - Polidicks

[QUOTE=wystan;51250590]I fail to see how that proves transgenderism exists as anything other than a mental illness.[/QUOTE] He proved that you can't force it onto someone who doesn't already have the underlying dysmorphia by failing to force it onto someone who didn't have the dysmorphia. Failing to see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Novangel;51250584]This somehow invalidates other countless researchers?[/QUOTE] Yes. To him.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51250600]He proved that you can't force it onto someone who doesn't already have the underlying dysmorphia by failing to force it onto someone who didn't have the dysmorphia. Failing to see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] Yes. To him.[/QUOTE] You can't force a boy to think he is a girl when he was born a boy. Wow what a discovery.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250611]You can't force a boy to think he is a girl when he was born a boy. Wow what a discovery.[/QUOTE] Yeah, actually, it kind of is an important discovery, especially paired with the knowledge that there are boys that feel like girls and vice versa that exist, that you negate to mention because that wouldn't be beneficial to your weak as piss argument.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250611]You can't force a boy to think he is a girl when he was born a boy. Wow what a discovery.[/QUOTE] And where does that leave transgenderism in your mind? Because by that statement, it should be technically impossible, right? But it obviously exists, because you're arguing about it right now.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51250656]Because by that statement, it should be technically impossible, right? [/QUOTE] No?

Like do you not get the inherit stupidity in your argument? This guy proved you can't force a person into the wrong gender. Look at the real world, where there are transgender people who are much better off in the proper sex. Does that not show you can't force a person to be something they're not and that just letting them be themeslves is the best answer over all because that's what we've done, and you're arguing "No, actually, you've mutilated people into believing this, despite my argument stating you can't force people to do that, you've some how done so for years now" Your argument is inherently self defeating. That's the fucking funniest thing about arguing with you Wystan.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51250670]Like do you not get the inherit stupidity in your argument? This guy proved you can't force a person into the wrong gender. Look at the real world, where there are transgender people who are much better off in the proper sex. Does that not show you can't force a person to be something they're not and that just letting them be themeslves is the best answer over all because that's what we've done, and you're arguing "No, actually, you've mutilated people into believing this, despite my argument stating you can't force people to do that, you've some how done so for years now" Your argument is inherently self defeating. That's the fucking funniest thing about arguing with you Wystan.[/QUOTE] Because trying to make someone not normal and something they weren't born as isn't a discovery. I really fail to see how that's remarkable, I can't convince you you're a dog because you aren't a dog and weren't born one, and I don't need to do an unethical abusive experiment to prove this. The kid was born with an XY chromosome, that makes him male, even if his parts got botched. I don't buy into this "oh but I feel like I'm a woman so I need to become one", guys can be effeminate or feminine that's fine and doesn't bother me, and woman can be masculine, be it "tomboy" or something else.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250688]Because trying to make someone not normal and something they weren't born as isn't a discovery. I really fail to see how that's remarkable, I can't convince you you're a dog because you aren't a dog and weren't born one, and I don't need to do an unethical abusive experiment to prove this. The kid was born with an XY chromosome, that makes him male, even if his parts got botched. I don't buy into this "oh but I feel like I'm a woman so I need to become one", guys can be effeminate or feminine that's fine and doesn't bother me, and woman can be masculine, be it "tomboy" or something else.[/QUOTE] So you truly believe that there isn't a person alive today that has a female brain and a male body or vice versa? You do realize that's generated by willful ignorance and not any careful examination of the facts right? [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] Comparing people to dogs as a method to compare the sexes to one another shows how massively ignorant you are

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51250698]So you truly believe that there isn't a person alive today that has a female brain and a male body or vice versa? You do realize that's generated by willful ignorance and not any careful examination of the facts right? [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] Comparing people to dogs as a method to compare the sexes to one another shows how massively ignorant you are[/QUOTE] Seemed acceptable enough, I could've used any noun really. Maybe you think you're a seaplane or a windmill. But to answer your question I suppose yea I do believe that. If you're born with an XY chromosome, you have a male brain, regardless of how you actually think or prefer things, you're still male.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250611]You can't force a boy to think he is a girl when he was born a boy. Wow what a discovery.[/QUOTE] That is important, because it proves that trans people weren't conditioned.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250713]Seemed acceptable enough, I could've used any noun really. Maybe you think you're a seaplane or a windmill. But to answer your question I suppose yea I do believe that. If you're born with an XY chromosome, you have a male brain, regardless of how you actually think or prefer things, you're still male.[/QUOTE] Well you're free to believe that, but it's not how it works.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51250722]Well you're free to believe that, but it's not how it works.[/QUOTE] Will do, but I'll be open-minded for once, enlighten me, or point me to some reading.

[QUOTE=Levithan;51248506]gender identity forms at around age 2 to 3, from all the literature I've read. kids pick up a lot more than we give them credit[/QUOTE] Can I get some sources on this (Legitimate request)?

[QUOTE=wystan;51250713]Seemed acceptable enough, I could've used any noun really. Maybe you think you're a seaplane or a windmill. But to answer your question I suppose yea I do believe that. If you're born with an XY chromosome, you have a male brain, regardless of how you actually think or prefer things, you're still male.[/QUOTE] why do people who hate transgender people keep comparing being transgender to being a dog or being a seaplane or a windmill tho like yeah guys the attack helicopter meme was pretty funny but doesn't have anything to do with being transgender at all it's okay if you want to deny the reality of a huge amount of people but at least make sure you know how being trans works before you try and discount it lol [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] really tho what do you stand to gain from arguing against transgender issues while seemingly admitting you don't understand how it works? it just makes you look stupid?

[QUOTE=wystan;51250713]Seemed acceptable enough, I could've used any noun really. Maybe you think you're a seaplane or a windmill. But to answer your question I suppose yea I do believe that. If you're born with an XY chromosome, you have a male brain, regardless of how you actually think or prefer things, you're still male.[/QUOTE] Human beings can be a male or a female but they cannot be a rock There are actual brain chemistry differences, which is about as hard-sciency as you can get with psychological disorders. [IMG]https://lizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/mtf_brain_scan_differences.png[/IMG] If you disagree with it politically then whatever but you literally can't deny that being transgender is a thing unless you want to ignore all science that's gone into the matter like a retard.

wouldn't it be better if you actually researched the topic and understood the science behind it? if you did that, and formed your opinion on facts you take in rather than preconceived notions, maybe you wouldn't hate the concept of transgender so much? phygon thinks he's a real tough guy breaking my merge

snip (someone already posted the image lmao)

[QUOTE=phygon;51250860] [IMG]https://lizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/mtf_brain_scan_differences.png[/IMG] If you disagree with it politically then whatever but you literally can't deny that being transgender is a thing unless you want to ignore all science that's gone into the matter like a retard.[/QUOTE] incoming "that probably has a liberal bias" post

[QUOTE=phygon;51250860]Human beings can be a male or a female but they cannot be a rock There are actual brain chemistry differences, which is about as hard-sciency as you can get with psychological disorders. [IMG]https://lizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/mtf_brain_scan_differences.png[/IMG] If you disagree with it politically then whatever but you literally can't deny that being transgender is a thing unless you want to ignore all science that's gone into the matter like a retard.[/QUOTE] Could this have anything to do with hormones that transgender people often take though?

[QUOTE=wystan;51250727]Will do, but I'll be open-minded for once, enlighten me, or point me to some reading.[/QUOTE] Homosexuality was once considered a mental illness, it is not anymore. Medical institutions have started distancing themselves from the idea that transgenderism is a mental illness in the past couple decades. People use the argument that transgender people tend to suffer more mental illnesses, with implications that transgenderism itself is a mental illness that must be cured through therapy, which again mirror's the medical history of homosexuality. But a study a couple months ago indicated that this may be a result of extreme stress from rejection and hatred aimed at them by their peers, as well as fear of violence as a result. There's some evidence of it being a physical defect, transgender males that were examined had characteristics in their brains consistent with a female person's brain. One theory is that transgenderism is a result of a hormonal imbalance in the womb when the brain is forming, which gives it a structure inconsistent with the body's. There are two ways we could "cure" this: alter the body or alter the brain. Aside from the extreme ethical concerns with literally altering someone's brain, it's not safe or possible with out current technology and know-how. But we do know how to change bodies through hormones and surgery.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250900]Could this have anything to do with hormones that transgender people often take though?[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html"]The original study[/URL] that the Bao & Swaab picture is based upon does take that into consideration with a sizeable control of cisgendered men and women who were under no hormonal drugs. Its been well supported, see aforementioned Bao & Swaab study, that there is strong dimorphism and correlation with gender identity and the BSTc structure in the thalamus.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250900]Could this have anything to do with hormones that transgender people often take though?[/QUOTE] Y'know you could do some research and find this stuff out for yourself. The current scientific understanding is that prenatal hormones delievered to the brain while in the womb dictate sexuality and gender identity in infants. This part of the fetus' developmental process dictates the amount of white matter and grey matter in the brain, which is what you're seeing in that image (Men have more grey matter and less white matter, Women have more white matter and less grey matter). Post natal hormones cannot have this effect because it is the specific process of brain formation in the fetus stage of development that causes this change. You don't have the scientific basis to be making any arguments about this topic, so I don't know why you're trying to make uneducated assumptions. [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation[/url] [url]https://jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15466[/url] [url]https://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/[/url] Also gender dysphoria occurs before people start taking HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy). Many people with Gender Dyphoria never undergo HRT because it's too expensive or their case isn't severe enough to need it (simply changing the way they dress or something similar is enough to relieve their symptoms).

[QUOTE=Zyler;51250967]Y'know you could do some research and find this stuff out for yourself. The current scientific understanding is that prenatal hormones delievered to the brain while in the womb dictate sexuality and gender identity in infants. This part of the fetus' developmental process dictates the amount of white matter and grey matter in the brain, which is what you're seeing in that image (Men have more grey matter and less white matter, Women have more white matter and less grey matter). Post natal hormones cannot have this effect because it is the specific process of brain formation in the fetus stage of development that causes this change. You don't have the scientific basis to be making any arguments about this topic, so I don't know why you're trying to make uneducated assumptions. [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation[/url] [url]https://jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15466[/url] [url]https://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/[/url][/QUOTE] "Moral outrage" is my explanation

Could someone reply to this?: [quote]How does this fit in with- Outward expression of masculinity and feminity (i.e. transgender people commonly expressing themselves in ways that pertain to societal ideas of how their gender should act)? Non-binary genders such as pangender or third gender? Also, transgenderism and gender dysphoria should be renamed in order to avoid confusion (also #2, are the people responding to me who insisted trangenderism can exist independently of gender dysphoria wrong, then?)[/quote]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51251033]"Moral outrage" is my explanation[/QUOTE] Yea, it's an entirely emotional reaction driven by ignorance of scientific knowledge and with no logical basis.

i have to wonder if there have always been this level of trans* people or if some environmental effects have contributed to it. while yes there certainly is an increase in awareness which leads to a seeming increase in numbers, i have my doubts that transgenderism was quite as common in years past compared to today. effects from pollution or perhaps hormones in foods, perhaps?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251059]Yea, it's an entirely emotional reaction driven by ignorance of scientific knowledge and with no logical basis.[/QUOTE] Person with male set of chromosomes is a male, seems pretty logical to me.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251100]Person with male set of chromosomes is a male, seems pretty logical to me.[/QUOTE] Being unscientific is not logical. Ignoring scientific evidence and continuing to spin off your own uneducated theories is not logical. Have you read my previous post and the links I posted? Have you read the other responses to your post?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251106]Being unscientific is not logical. Ignoring scientific evidence and continuing to spin off your own uneducated theories is not logical. Have you read my previous post and the links I posted? Have you read the other responses to your post?[/QUOTE] Alright Spock, these aren't theories but ok, do you disagree than possessing XY chromosomes makes you male? Possessing XX chromosomes makes you female? Therefore regardless of what brain chemistry you got going on, you are still inherently male or female depending on said chromosomes.

[QUOTE=wystan;51250900]Could this have anything to do with hormones that transgender people often take though?[/QUOTE] The results are the same pre-hrt