Boy ‘living life entirely as a girl’ removed from mother's care by UK judge - Polidicks

[QUOTE=RobL;51251058]Could someone reply to this?:[/QUOTE] Non-binary genders are a reflection of the fact that brain chemistry is not, y'know, binary. There is a range of neural wiring possible, but things tend to cluster around two groups we call 'male' and 'female'. For example, you can be male but someone else could be more 'male-ish' (not the scientific term obviously) than you simply because they are closer to the bell curve. The small number of people who aren't close to either group may choose to identify as male, female or non-binary, but it's a rather arbitrary distinction at that point. Most people are pretty close to one or the other but gay men might be further away from the male bellcurve and closer to the female bellcurve and lesbian women might be further away from the female bellcurve and closer to the male bellcurve.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251100]Person with male set of chromosomes is a male, seems pretty logical to me.[/QUOTE] How do you respond to that brain picture? It disagrees with you.

[QUOTE=phygon;51251169]How do you respond to that brain picture? It disagrees with you.[/QUOTE] Really? Did it magically make them not male anymore? Did they somehow not have everything else that made them male?

[QUOTE=wystan;51251127]Alright Spock, these aren't theories but ok, do you disagree than possessing XY chromosomes makes you male? Possessing XX chromosomes makes you female? Therefore regardless of what brain chemistry you got going on, you are still inherently male or female depending on said chromosomes.[/QUOTE] What do you even mean by 'inherently' male or female? Why does it matter? It seems like you don't even care about the science, you just have some strange need to prove that chromosomes dictate some kind of natural order. There's no such thing as a natural order, things are the way they are because we can observe them scientifically. If you ignore science and you ignore logic and I point that out, it isn't a case of me being 'spock' that's the problem, it's you being willfully ignornant Chromosomes are a part of Biology, which is a science. You cannot ignore science in order to claim that chromosomes dictate some undefinable 'inherent' quality of 'maleness' or 'femaleness' based on nothing. Do you understand how you're being completely illogical, irrational and nonsensical? 'male' and 'female' are just words, they don't mean anything when you strip them of all context and meaning, which is what you're doing. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;51251185]Really? Did it magically make them not male anymore? Did they somehow not have everything else that made them male?[/QUOTE] What is 'male' according to you? Why do you ignore scientific evidence that disproves your argument? Do you understand why what you're saying makes no sense? Why do you keep making claims about things you have no understanding about? You're like a child pointing at a red balloon and saying "that's yellow!" and when corrected you just say "nuh huh, it's not red it's yellow!" Do you think if you repeat a false claim enough times it will magically become true? Do you understand why your argument is incoherent? Do you need me to explain it to you? [b]You cannot seem to read or respond to any post that's longer than a single line, so you probably didn't read my previous posts and you probably won't read this post except this one line because I made it bold.[/b]

[QUOTE=wystan;51251127]Alright Spock, these aren't theories but ok, do you disagree than possessing XY chromosomes makes you male? Possessing XX chromosomes makes you female? Therefore regardless of what brain chemistry you got going on, you are still inherently male or female depending on said chromosomes.[/QUOTE] hi swyer syndrome and greetings to you xx male syndrome

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251190]What do you even mean by 'inherently' male or female? Why does it matter? It seems like you don't even care about the science, you just have some strange need to prove that chromosomes dictate some kind of natural order. There's no such thing as a natural order, things are the way they are because we can observe them scientifically. Chromosomes are a part of Biology, which is a science. You cannot ignore science in order to claim that chromosomes dictate some undefinable 'inherent' quality of 'maleness' or 'femaleness' based on nothing. Do you understand how you're being completely illogical, irrational and nonsensical? 'male' and 'female' are just words, they don't mean anything when you strip them of all context and meaning, which is what you're doing. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] What is 'male' according to you? Why do you ignore scientific evidence that disproves your argument? Do you understand why what you're saying makes no sense? Why do you keep making claims about things you have no understanding about? You're like a child pointing at a red balloon and saying "that's yellow!" and when corrected you just say "nuh huh, it's not red it's yellow!" Do you think if you repeat a false claim enough times it will magically become true?[/QUOTE] You're telling me that male and female organisms which coexist with each other to reproduce and survive aren't some kind of natural order? You mean things in [i]nature[/i] aren't part of some [i]natural[/i] order? How am I ignoring science when it is the science that gave us these concrete definitions of what makes something male or female? The concept of "maleness" and "femaleness", or masculinity and femininity, in case you want to actually talk like a normal person, that is a completely different discussion. Male and female are certainly more than just words, you know this.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251233]You're telling me that male and female organisms which coexist with each other to reproduce and survive aren't some kind of natural order? You mean things in [i]nature[/i] aren't part of some [i]natural[/i] order? How am I ignoring science when it is the science that gave us these concrete definitions of what makes something male or female? The concept of "maleness" and "femaleness", or masculinity and femininity, in case you want to actually talk like a normal person, that is a completely different discussion. Male and female are certainly more than just words, you know this.[/QUOTE] You are ignoring science by ignoring the scientific sources that disagree with you. Either address the scientific evidence on the previous page or admit you don't give a crap about science. The 'natural order' is just what we observe scientifically, you cannot pick and choose what scientific knowledge you wish to accept. Brain Chemistry IS nature. We know scientifically that there is a range of neurological conditions which define the brain's identification with gender and that it is what we refer to when we say that someone is male or female in a human context. Here's our actual scientific understanding of the situation: There are three different contexts to talk about here, all of which can be completely distinct and can be at odds with each other. One is Biological Sex, which applies to all animals and some plants and is based on genetic chromosomes, of which there are at least 5 sexes (XX, XY, XXY, YXX, YYX) not just 'male' and 'female'. Functional Sex is based on sexual organs (a male sexual organ or female sexual organ, the ability to carry young), and once again applies to all animals and some plants (like banana trees). Some animals have multiple sexual organs or alternate between them (like seahorses). In some species the male has a male sexual organ but also a womb, other combinations are also possible. Finally, Neurological Sex, which is insofar as we know only found in people due to their more complex brain chemistry (although experiments on rats has lead to the possibility of animal based neurological sex). Neurological Sex comes from prenatal hormones delivered to the brain during the fetal stage of development. There's also gendered behaviour, like "masculinity" or "femininity" but that has nothing to do with biology and is instead an aspect of human social behavior. We know this because there are different concepts of "masculinity" or "feminity" throughout different cultures in the world. When I talked about "maleness" and "femaleness" earlier, I was refering to neurological sex, i.e. brain chemistry- not masculinity or femininity. It's not unreasonable that you got them confused though, because we've already demonstrated that you have no understanding of science or biology and no basis at all to be making any of the claims you are making. Now, can you accept that you don't understand things and shouldn't be making baseless claims about something you know nothing about? What 'male' and 'female' means is contextual based on what type of sex you are referring to. Do you understand how the same words can mean different things in different contexts? [b]Read this whole post. If you cannot understand it, then it means you don't have the basis to make claims about what 'male' or 'female means because you don't understand biology.[/b]

[QUOTE=wystan;51251185]Really? Did it magically make them not male anymore? Did they somehow not have everything else that made them male?[/QUOTE] Well, a part of the brain that's involved in gender identity development is identical (or more similar to) a female one in MtF individuals. Seeing as transgenderism is entirely a function of the brain and gender identity is held in your brain, yeah. It does. Think about it. If your brain was put into a woman's body, would you be a man or a woman? I don't mean a male or a female- that's chromosomes. I mean, what would you identify yourself as? Would you feel like your body was correct? This is essentially what happens to transgender people, but it's at birth.

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251294]You are ignoring science by ignoring the scientific sources that disagree with you. Either address the scientific evidence on the previous page or admit you don't give a crap about science. The 'natural order' is just what we observe scientifically, you cannot pick and choose what scientific knowledge you wish to accept. Brain Chemistry IS nature. We know scientifically that there is a range of neurological conditions which define the brain's identification with gender and that it is what we refer to when we say that someone is male or female in a human context. Here's our actual scientific understanding of the situation: There are three different contexts to talk about here, all of which can be completely distinct and can be at odds with each other. One is Biological Sex, which applies to all animals and some plants and is based on genetic chromosomes, of which there are at least 5 sexes (XX, XY, XXY, YXX, YYX) not just 'male' and 'female'. Functional Sex is based on sexual organs (a male sexual organ or female sexual organ, the ability to carry young), and once again applies to all animals and some plants (like banana trees). Some animals have multiple sexual organs or alternate between them (like seahorses). In some species the male has a male sexual organ but also a womb, other combinations are also possible. Finally, Neurological Sex, which is insofar as we know only found in people due to their more complex brain chemistry (although experiments on rats has lead to the possibility of animal based neurological sex). Neurological Sex comes from prenatal hormones delivered to the brain during the fetal stage of development. There's also gendered behaviour, like "masculinity" or "femininity" but that has nothing to do with biology and is instead an aspect of human social behavior. We know this because there are different concepts of "masculinity" or "feminity" throughout different cultures in the world. When I talked about "maleness" and "femaleness" earlier, I was refering to neurological sex, i.e. brain chemistry- not masculinity or femininity. It's not unreasonable that you got them confused though, because we've already demonstrated that you have no understanding of science or biology and no basis at all to be making any of the claims you are making.[/QUOTE] Or maybe it is because you are speaking of something contrived, but that's fine another excuse to be snide right? Those other "sexes" are genuine chromosomal disorders unless you're talking about organisms other than humans, in which case it's irrelevant. Excuse me for not knowing your fringe sexual identity theories.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251313]Or maybe it is because you are speaking of something contrived, but that's fine another excuse to be snide right? Those other "sexes" are genuine chromosomal disorders. Excuse me for not knowing your fringe sexual identity theories.[/QUOTE] You cannot disprove what I am saying and your only argument is that I am 'snide' and that somehow the mainstream biology science is 'contrived' and 'fringe sexual identity theories' because you cannot understand it. Your argument is purely emotional. My post at the top of this page is completely correct. I'm sorry I triggered you.

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251326]You cannot disprove what I am saying and your only argument is that I am 'snide' and that somehow the mainstream biology science is 'contrived' and 'fringe sexual identity theories' because you cannot understand it. Your argument is purely emotional. My post at the top of this page is completely correct. I'm sorry I triggered you.[/QUOTE] I don't know where you're getting this "emotional" vibe from my posts, I explained my line of thinking you have yet to show me I'm actually wrong. I am wrong for saying that people with XX chromosomes are male, and those with XY chromosomes are female?

[QUOTE=wystan;51251340]I don't know where you're getting this "emotional" vibe from my posts, I explained my line of thinking you have yet to show me I'm actually wrong. I am wrong for saying that people with XX chromosomes are male, and those with XY chromosomes are female?[/QUOTE] Yes, you are wrong. Male and Female means different things depending on context. You have no 'line of thinking' you just ignore anything put in front of you and continue saying the same false statement over and over again. There's no basis to your argument, you simply have a strange emotional attachment to the 'natural order' of 'male' and 'female' meaning 'XY' and 'XX' regardless of context, science, or logical sense. Once again, I'm sorry I triggered you. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;51251340]I don't know where you're getting this "emotional" vibe from my posts, I explained my line of thinking you have yet to show me I'm actually wrong. I am wrong for saying that people with XX chromosomes are male, and those with XY chromosomes are female?[/QUOTE] You're also wrong in the specific context of biological sex, XX is 'female' and XY is 'male'- not the other way around. You literally know nothing about this, do you? Why do you keep making claims about something you know nothing about? There are a litany of professional scientists who are experts within their respective fields who have spent decades researching this stuff. Who do you think is more qualified to claim what 'male' or 'female' means? Them or you?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251352]Yes, you are wrong. Male and Female means different things depending on context. You have no 'line of thinking' you just ignore anything put in front of you and continue saying the same false statement over and over again. There's no basis to your argument, you simply have a strange emotional attachment to the 'natural order' of 'male' and 'female' meaning 'XY' and 'XX' regardless of context, science, or logical sense. Once again, I'm sorry I triggered you.[/QUOTE] With in the context of human sexes, two forms exists, as determined by science, males and females, XX chromosomes, and XY chromosomes. Therefore, logic would dictate, that within context of humans, those born with XX are male, and XY are female. [quote] You're also wrong in the specific context of biological sex, XX is 'female' and XY is 'male'- not the other way around.[/QUOTE] Got it switched that one time, was typing too fast, my b

[QUOTE=wystan;51251366]With in the context of human sexes, two forms exists, as determined by science, males and females, XX chromosomes, and XY chromosomes. Therefore, logic would dictate, that within context of humans, those born with XX are male, and XY are female. Got it switched that one time, was typing too fast, my b[/QUOTE] No, that is not science. You are making things up. You're only basing your argument on what I'm saying and refusing to do any research and yet you're still getting it wrong. XXY, YYX and YYX humans do exist, they're called 'intersex'. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex[/url] Chromosonial Intersex people are not transgendered either, it's a completely separate phenomenon where one has to do with the biological sex as opposed to the neurological sex. You literally cannot classify these people without multiple contexts of 'male' and 'female'. There are also Physical Sex Intersex people who have a combination of both genitalia, but not all Intersex people do (some are just Chromosonially Intersex but are entirely physically male or female, i.e. they only have one set of sexual organs).

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251389] No, that is not science. You are making things up. You're only basing your argument on what I'm saying and refusing to do any research and yet you're still getting it wrong. XXY, YYX and YYX humans do exist, they're called 'intersex'. [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex[/URL][/QUOTE] Pretty sure all of these people can be put into one of the two. Regardless these people have an actual disorder, and aren't the Trans people this topic is about. You can just keep saying it's not science but you have yet to actually tell me how my simple statement is wrong. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zyler;51251389]No, that is not science. You are making things up. You're only basing your argument on what I'm saying and refusing to do any research and yet you're still getting it wrong. XXY, YYX and YYX humans do exist, they're called 'intersex'. [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex[/URL] Chromosonial Intersex people are not transgendered either, it's a completely separate phenomenon where one has to do with the biological sex as opposed to the neurological sex. You literally cannot classify these people without [b]multiple contexts of 'male' and 'female'.[/b] There are also Physical Sex Intersex people who have a combination of both genitalia, but not all Intersex people do (some are just Chromosonially Intersex but are entirely physically male or female, i.e. they only have one set of sexual organs).[/QUOTE] Doesn't this imply that it still boils down to Male and Female?

[QUOTE=wystan;51251422]Pretty sure all of these people can be put into one of the two. Regardless these people have an actual disorder, and aren't the Trans people this topic is about. You can just keep saying it's not science but you have yet to actually tell me how my simple statement is wrong.[/QUOTE] By your definition, no they cannot be put into one of the two. If according to you XX is female and XY is male, then how do you define a person who is XXY or someone who is XYY? It literally makes no sense.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251313]Or maybe it is because you are speaking of something contrived, but that's fine another excuse to be snide right? Those other "sexes" are genuine chromosomal disorders unless you're talking about organisms other than humans, in which case it's irrelevant. Excuse me for not knowing your fringe sexual identity theories.[/QUOTE] Wow. He laid it out for you in easy terms and you'd rather insult him. You won't reflect on that. But you should. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;51251422]Pretty sure all of these people can be put into one of the two. Regardless these people have an actual disorder, and aren't the Trans people this topic is about. You can just keep saying it's not science but you have yet to actually tell me how my simple statement is wrong. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] Doesn't this imply that it still boils down to Male and Female?[/QUOTE] Because clearly biology is more complicated when you factor in consciousness and sentience

[QUOTE=wystan;51251422] Doesn't this imply that it still boils down to Male and Female?[/QUOTE] Not in the way you're defining it. There are three different criteria: chromosomes, physical sexual organs and brain chemistry. There are 5 possible chromosome combinations, numerous different variations of physical sexual organs and a range of possible configurations of brain chemistry.

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251436]By your definition, no they cannot be put into one of the two. If according to you XX is female and XY is male, then how do you define a person who is XXY or someone who is XYY? It literally makes no sense.[/QUOTE] Well for example, Klinefelter syndrome which results in XXY, is only found in males. So those with it are male. Most chromosomal disorders work out this way.

So you'd just ignore the difference in chromosomal situations only when it befits your argument? Not so scientific

[QUOTE=wystan;51251451]Well for example, Klinefelter syndrome which results in XXY, is only found in males. So those with it are male. Most chromosomal disorders work out this way.[/QUOTE] So the definition that you use to define whether someone is 'male' or 'female' is wrong. You claimed that "XX is female and XY is male", which is wrong because there are different kinds of chromosomes. You're shifting the goal posts. How do you know that most chromosomal disorders work that way? Do you have a scientific source? Regardless, your original statement is wrong.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251313]Or maybe it is because you are speaking of something contrived, but that's fine another excuse to be snide right? Those other "sexes" are genuine chromosomal disorders unless you're talking about organisms other than humans, in which case it's irrelevant. Excuse me for not knowing your fringe sexual identity theories.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=phygon;51251300]Well, a part of the brain that's involved in gender identity development is identical (or more similar to) a female one in MtF individuals. Seeing as transgenderism is entirely a function of the brain and gender identity is held in your brain, yeah. It does. Think about it. If your brain was put into a woman's body, would you be a man or a woman? I don't mean a male or a female- that's chromosomes. I mean, what would you identify yourself as? Would you feel like your body was correct? This is essentially what happens to transgender people, but it's at birth.[/QUOTE] Please respond

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51251457]So you'd just ignore the difference in chromosomal situations only when it befits your argument? Not so scientific[/QUOTE] Again the argument is purely emotional, there is no logical basis to it. Wystan will just change his whole entire argument if it enables him to keep saying that trans people don't exist. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;51251451]Well for example, Klinefelter syndrome which results in XXY, is only found in males. So those with it are male. Most chromosomal disorders work out this way.[/QUOTE] How can XXY be only found in males if males can only be defined as XY, wouldn't having any combination besides XY mean that they are intrinsically not males, by your definition? Or are you willing to admit you shifted the goal posts?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251467]So the definition that you use to define whether someone is 'male' or 'female' is wrong. You claimed that "XX is female and XY is male", which is wrong because there are different kinds of chromosomes. You're shifting the goal posts. How do you know that most chromosomal disorders work that way? Do you have a scientific source? Regardless, your original statement is wrong.[/QUOTE] I'm saying most chromosomal disorders work this way, as in they only affect one sex. Klinefelter syndrome only affects males, Turner's Syndrome only affects females, etc. [QUOTE=phygon;51251471]Please respond[/QUOTE] I'd be a woman in like scenario. I have the biological makeup of a woman, and until we can do full brain transplants and you can show me otherwise, I don't see how it can be any other way. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Zyler;51251477]Again the argument is purely emotional, there is no logical basis to it. Wystan will just change his whole entire argument if it enables him to keep saying that trans people don't exist. [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] How can XXY be only found in males if males can only be defined as XY, wouldn't having any combination besides XY mean that they are intrinsically not males, by your definition? Or are you willing to admit you shifted the goal posts?[/QUOTE] I have shifted anything, you are just being dense. This condition can only be found in males, therefore those who have it are males. You know, logically.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251489]I'm saying most chromosomal disorders work this way, as in they only affect one sex. Klinefelter syndrome only affects males, Turner's Syndrome only affects females, etc.[/QUOTE] But you said males are XX, how can males be XXY? Your definition is wrong and you've shifted the goal posts. [QUOTE]I'd be a woman in like scenario. I have the biological makeup of a woman, and until we can do full brain transplants and you can show me otherwise, I don't see how it can be any other way.[/QUOTE] We know scientifically that trans-men literally have the neurological sex (the brain) of a male. So according to your definition, if we transplanted your brain into a female body you would immediately have the biological makeup of a woman. And what would happen if we transplanted your brain into the body of a person with a XXY chromosome combination? What would you be then?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251504]But you said males are XX, how can males be XXY? Your definition is wrong and you've shifted the goal posts. We know scientifically that trans-men literally have the neurological sex (the brain) of a male. So according to your definition, if we transplanted your brain into a female body you would immediately have the biological makeup of a woman.[/QUOTE] You're just trolling at this point right? This is like the caricature of people who deny evolution of saying "if we came from monkeys how are there still monkeys?". A disorder only found in men that results in an XXY chromosome, still makes you a man.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251489]I'm saying most chromosomal disorders work this way, as in they only affect one sex. Klinefelter syndrome only affects males, Turner's Syndrome only affects females, etc. I'd be a woman in like scenario. I have the biological makeup of a woman, and until we can do full brain transplants and you can show me otherwise, I don't see how it can be any other way. [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] I have shifted anything, you are just being dense. This condition can only be found in males, therefore those who have it are males. You know, logically.[/QUOTE] We know that the condition is found in males, the problem is that the definition you provided is literally false, you said that "XX is female and XY is male". If that's the case, how do you know that a XXY person or a YYX person is male or female? Clearly there must be something other than chromosomes that defines aspects of sex, or you're contradicting yourself.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251489] I'd be a woman in like scenario. I have the biological makeup of a woman, and until we can do full brain transplants and you can show me otherwise, I don't see how it can be any other way. [/QUOTE] You fully believe that if your brain were to be plinked down into a woman's body, you'd be totally okay with that?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51251522]We know that the condition is found in males, the problem is that the definition you provided is literally false, you said that "XX is female and XY is male". If that's the case, how do you know that a XXY person or a YYX person is male or female?[/QUOTE] Did I really have to explicitly state that women have XX chromosomes (and also all those with chromosomal disorders which only occur in females resulting in something other than XX, say Turner's Syndrome), and all men have XY chromosomes (and all all those chromosomal disorders which only occur in males resulting in something other than XY, say Klinefelters). Did I REALLY have to specify that you to? [editline]23rd October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;51251526]You fully believe that if your brain were to be plinked down into a woman's body, you'd be totally okay with that?[/QUOTE] We are getting into philosophical thought (heh literally) experiment territory here and I really want to stay away from those. But yea probably.

[QUOTE=wystan;51251515]You're just trolling at this point right? This is like the caricature of people who deny evolution of saying "if we came from monkeys how are there still monkeys?". A disorder only found in men that results in an XXY chromosome, still makes you a man.[/QUOTE] By the same logic, having the neurological sex of a male, means that you're neurologically a male. And yet you cannot accept that because you claimed that "XX is female and XY is male and that's it", which we know is false because men can be XXY for example. Why do you only agree with the simple scientific definitions when it agrees with you personally? If a scientist tells you "this person is male and has a XXY chromosome" you blindly accept it, but when a scientist tells you "this person has the brain chemistry of a male and so is neurologically male" you disregard it? [editline]24th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;51251531]Did I really have to explicitly state that women have XX chromosomes (and also all those with chromosomal disorders which only occur in females resulting in something other than XX, say Turner's Syndrome), and all men have XY chromosomes (and all all those chromosomal disorders which only occur in males resulting in something other than XY, say Klinefelters). I did REALLY have to specify that you to?.[/QUOTE] Yes, because it shows how you're making wrongful assumptions and picking and choosing the scientific facts that suit you and ignoring the ones that don't. Again, Why do you think you know better than the actual scientists who are experts within their respective fields and have been researching this stuff for decades?