Boy ‘living life entirely as a girl’ removed from mother's care by UK judge - Polidicks

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The idea of mutually exclusive Male/Female sex characteristics is untenable. We should realize that the human experience is a wide and varied spectrum, and trying to force all of human experience into one of two categories is SUPER reductionist.

[QUOTE=Levithan;51253399]The idea of mutually exclusive Male/Female sex characteristics is untenable. We should realize that the human experience is a wide and varied spectrum, and trying to force all of human experience into one of two categories is SUPER reductionist.[/QUOTE] To be the devils advocate Yes, but that has no bearing on the fact that there are indeed 2 genders, and no more no less. The fact that some of us dont clearly fall into those categories does not mean the categories are meaningless since they are idealised concepts to make communication easier. Natural reproduction needs 1 male and 1 female no matter if one of them is genderqueer or not.

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51253632]To be the devils advocate Yes, but that has no bearing on the fact that there are indeed 2 genders, and no more no less. The fact that some of us dont clearly fall into those categories does not mean the categories are meaningless since they are idealised concepts to make communication easier. Natural reproduction needs 1 male and 1 female no matter if one of them is genderqueer or not.[/QUOTE] Gender is a social construct, with gender identity being an (usually) integral part to a person's psyche. It's demonstrably false that there are "only two genders" when there have been many other cultures with more than two. Reproduction for humans only needs a combination of genitals, but varying gender doesn't matter. IE, a transman and a cisgender man can have children. Two genderqueer people can (potentially) have a child, if they have the right genitals. "Male" and "female" as labels has use, but not this blatantly wrong idea that there are only TWO genders, or that one's genitals sets in stone their gender and how they should dress or act.

Gender is a social construct yet you use scientific evidence to show that transgender people exist because they have differences in their brains which make them identify with the other gender (meaning that they haven't simply been socialised into thinking that they are one gender or the other)

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;51254606]Gender is a social construct yet you use scientific evidence to show that transgender people exist because they have differences in their brains which make them identify with the other gender (meaning that they haven't simply been socialised into thinking that they are one gender or the other)[/QUOTE] Sex, whether it is used in a chromosomal (one of 5 chromosomial combinations), functional (existence of working sexual organs or lack thereof) or neurological (the ammount of grey or white matter in the brain as defined by prenatal hormones) context is scientifically biological (we can measure it and it is consistent accross all human beings). Gender as well as Gender expression (masculinity and feminity) is socially constructed. GID and Gender Dysphoria have both a biological and socially constructed component because we know that individuals with gender dysphoria have the biological brains of the opposite sex or something inbetween but the source of their discomfort and subsequent disorder is socially based (they cannot express themselves the way their brain thinks of itself). I think you might be operating on the basis that it is either-or; biological or socially constructed. However in this case it is a combination of a neurological condition and a socially-driven mental disorder that stems from it.

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51253632]To be the devils advocate Yes, but that has no bearing on the fact that there are indeed 2 genders, and no more no less. The fact that some of us dont clearly fall into those categories does not mean the categories are meaningless since they are idealised concepts to make communication easier. Natural reproduction needs 1 male and 1 female no matter if one of them is genderqueer or not.[/QUOTE] Sex is not the same as gender [editline]25th October 2016[/editline] Besides as said before even sex doesn't fit into binary types, there's intersex.

so this is probably a random thought but, I see the argument all the time that transgenderism is a mental illness (which I don't agree with) and every time I wonder that if that's true, with the absence of any other proven way to treat gender dysphoria except for transitioning, wouldn't that be the best possible option?

[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51255956]so this is probably a random thought but, I see the argument all the time that transgenderism is a mental illness (which I don't agree with) and every time I wonder that if that's true, with the absence of any other proven way to treat gender dysphoria except for transitioning, wouldn't that be the best possible option?[/QUOTE] Well a disorder is something that is mental that affects your life negatively so it fits the definition.

Didn't quite understand the article, if the mother was making the kid do it that's rather odd/unfortunate but if the kid is actually trans then holy shit man :c

[QUOTE=gtanoofa;51253280]Hasn't it been proved that hormones can change parts of the brain to appear closer to what the other sex usually has? Like an mtf trans person taking estrogen and anti AAs and parts of her brain feminizing as a direct result of consuming hormones. Not that it discredits trans people since it has been proven that pre-hrt natal male mtf/ftm people do have feminine/masculine/androgynous brains(like neurons and grey/white mater) that are usually close to the gender they identify with.[/QUOTE] I am not a professional in the field, but I believe that you would need so much hormone therapy to change your brain to match your body and it really would not be worth it. [editline]25th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51255956]so this is probably a random thought but, I see the argument all the time that transgenderism is a mental illness (which I don't agree with) and every time I wonder that if that's true, with the absence of any other proven way to treat gender dysphoria except for transitioning, wouldn't that be the best possible option?[/QUOTE] Transgenderism is not the problem, it's the dysphoria that's the problem, and becoming transgender is the solution.

[QUOTE=phygon;51256155]Well a disorder is something that is mental that affects your life negatively so it fits the definition.[/QUOTE] Transgenderism doesn't necessarily mean gender dysphoria (Although a lot of people fall into it).

[QUOTE=Novangel;51256638]Transgenderism doesn't necessarily mean gender dysphoria (Although a lot of people fall into it).[/QUOTE] Literally every definition I have ever seen classifies the two as one and the same. How can you be trans without dysphoria? It's kind of inherent to it.

[QUOTE=phygon;51256677]Literally every definition I have ever seen classifies the two as one and the same. How can you be trans without dysphoria? It's kind of inherent to it.[/QUOTE] You can be dysphoric without going trans... There are people who make that call.

[QUOTE=The golden;51256801]Trans means "to cross over" in Latin. Transgender, on a fundamental level, means your gender is outside that of which you were assigned at birth/by society. There is no set-in-stone criteria of what is "Required" to say you are transgender. There isn't any. You are transgender if you feel your gender identity is anything but cisgender (cis being Latin for "to be within"). Transgender people just often have dysphoria because it's a really huge motivating factor to question/change ones gender identity. It helps combat the dysphoria.[/QUOTE] Yeah but since medically people have agreed that your "gender" is your brain sex then how would you even know that you're trans without experiencing dysphoria? [QUOTE=Blizzerd;51256763]You can be dysphoric without going trans... There are people who make that call.[/QUOTE] Being trans isn't the act of taking medication or socially transitioning, it's having your gender be different from your sex.

[QUOTE=The golden;51256828][B]Some people just simply feel the social norm for their assigned gender just simply doesn't fit them.[/B] Or they feel that they as a person just would rather be called something other than male or female. They're not feeling distress or discomfort from it, they just think they fit better under a different label. They're still transgender as they have crossed over into another gender. However it is more common for transgender people to experience dysphoria which is the driving factor in them changing their outward gender identity.[/QUOTE] That's gender roles, not gender. [editline]25th October 2016[/editline] I feel like it's incredibly inaccurate to put people that feel feminine under the same label as people who literally hate their bodies and/or feel like they were born into the wrong body every day, leading to years of treatment (medical and otherwise) to feel normal and happy with their bodies.

[QUOTE=phygon;51257082]That's gender roles, not gender.[/QUOTE] Gender roles and gender are the same things though?

[QUOTE=phygon;51256820]Being trans isn't the act of taking medication or socially transitioning, it's having your gender be different from your sex.[/QUOTE] thats how the doc explained it to me when i was 14 - 15 Being trans means you are transitioning, or have transitioned to another gender being genderdysphoric means you feel you are another gender then your biological one. It might be a translation issue though.

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51257709]thats how the doc explained it to me when i was 14 - 15 Being trans means you are transitioning, or have transitioned to another gender being genderdysphoric means you feel you are another gender then your biological one. It might be a translation issue though.[/QUOTE] Gender dysphoria refers to people who feel distress about their gender given to them, whereas transgender means those who don't identify as the gender assigned to them. They overlap but they're not quite the same. [editline]25th October 2016[/editline] Of course the terms vary depending on who and where you ask.

[QUOTE=The golden;51256828]Some people just simply feel the social norm for their assigned gender just simply doesn't fit them. Or they feel that they as a person just would rather be called something other than male or female. They're not feeling distress or discomfort from it, they just think they fit better under a different label. They're still transgender as they have crossed over into another gender. [/QUOTE] Like I mentioned before, I don't think I can understand transgenderism in the absence of gender dysphoria. If one identifies as transgender because the "the social norm for their assigned gender just simply doesn't fit them", it seems they're outright accepting the authority of traditional gender roles and adding to the problem. For example, I think it's pretty backwards for a male to identify as trans because they wear women's clothing- they're basically saying women's clothing is somehow objectively meant for women, and as a consequence are strengthening gender roles. I think you need to elaborate. [editline]25th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Novangel;51257697]Gender roles and gender are the same things though?[/QUOTE] They're using "gender" to mean brain sex

[QUOTE=Novangel;51257697]Gender roles and gender are the same things though?[/QUOTE] No, they're not. Gender roles are a choice and are made by society, Gender is an actual part of your brain. Even if there were no society, trans people would still be trans. Gender is not a choice, but you can choose to fill one gender role or another. It's a valid choice, but it's still a choice where gender itself is clearly not.

[QUOTE=phygon;51259873]No, they're not. Gender roles are a choice and are made by society, Gender is an actual part of your brain. Even if there were no society, trans people would still be trans. Gender is not a choice, but you can choose to fill one gender role or another. It's a valid choice, but it's still a choice where gender itself is clearly not.[/QUOTE] Basically, imagine if we had no words to describe 'male' and 'female' or 'masculine' and 'feminine'. People would still act according to their brain chemistry, we just wouldn't identify or categorize it into two or more groups. As a result of this, some individuals would still act differently from people who are more physically similiar to them because of differences in brain chemistry, but noone would identify that difference in behaviour as intrinsically linked to their identity; these hypothetical people would be transgendered but would not experience gender dysphoria. Obviously we don't live in this metaphorical genderless society, but if we did it might solve Gender Dysphoria but people would still be transgendered (we just wouldn't recognize it as such because it would not be out of the ordinary). As such, we have demonstrated that Gender Dysphoria and GID are two different but closely linked properties.

[QUOTE=Zyler;51260377]Basically, imagine if we had no words to describe 'male' and 'female' or 'masculine' and 'feminine'. People would still act according to their brain chemistry, we just wouldn't identify or categorize it into two or more groups. As a result of this, some individuals would still act differently from people who are more physically similiar to them because of differences in brain chemistry, but noone would identify that difference in behaviour as intrinsically linked to their identity; these hypothetical people would be transgendered but would not experience gender dysphoria.[/QUOTE] And I'm disagreeing with that definition of gender. Gender, in this sense, refers to the "brain sex" of an individual. It is important to separate the two for a very simple reason: Someone that is male that enjoys feminine things, more closely identifies with women, and that is "girly" is not in need of help or assistance. He does not live his life in discomfort due to his body, and can live a good life without help. Someone that is male that is transgender (I use "male" in the biological term, and "man" and "woman" for genders) but that is a woman, will [I]not[/I] be able to live a happy life if she does not receive help. If she is able to lead a happy life, it will still be worse than if she had received help, because every day she looks in the mirror and sees someone that she cannot view as herself. It is important to differentiate the two, which is why there are two different terms.

[QUOTE=phygon;51260390]And I'm disagreeing with that definition of gender. Gender, in this sense, refers to the "brain sex" of an individual. It is important to separate the two for a very simple reason: Someone that is male that enjoys feminine things, more closely identifies with women, and that is "girly" is not in need of help or assistance. He does not live his life in discomfort due to his body, and can live a good life without help. Someone that is male that is transgender (I use "male" in the biological term, and "man" and "woman" for genders) but that is a woman, will [I]not[/I] be able to live a happy life if she does not receive help. If she is able to lead a happy life, it will still be worse than if she had received help, because every day she looks in the mirror and sees someone that she cannot view as herself. It is important to differentiate the two, which is why there are two different terms.[/QUOTE] Okay, so to cover everything we've discussed- there's essentially 4 different things we can talk about when it comes to sex or gender. Chromosomal Sex- of which there are 5 chromosomal combinations possible in humans Functional Sex- which can describe any combination of sexual and reproductive organs, of which there are a multitude of possible combinations Neurological Sex, Brain Sex or Gender- which relates to the brain's perception of itself caused by the amount of white matter versus grey matter in the brain Gender Roles, Gender Expression- which relates to society's views and expectations of 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviour based on the outward appearance of the individual.

[QUOTE=phygon;51259873]No, they're not. Gender roles are a choice and are made by society, Gender is an actual part of your brain. Even if there were no society, trans people would still be trans. Gender is not a choice, but you can choose to fill one gender role or another. It's a valid choice, but it's still a choice where gender itself is clearly not.[/QUOTE] No? Gender is purely a social construct.

[QUOTE=Novangel;51261000]No? Gender is purely a social construct.[/QUOTE] What do you mean when you say Gender? Does it fit into one of the four definitions I typed up in my previous post?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51260423]Okay, so to cover everything we've discussed- there's essentially 4 different things we can talk about when it comes to sex or gender. Chromosomal Sex- of which there are 5 chromosomal combinations possible in humans Functional Sex- which can describe any combination of sexual and reproductive organs, of which there are a multitude of possible combinations Neurological Sex, Brain Sex or Gender- which relates to the brain's perception of itself caused by the amount of white matter versus grey matter in the brain Gender Roles, Gender Expression- which relates to society's views and expectations of 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviour based on the outward appearance of the individual.[/QUOTE] Yep, pretty much. [QUOTE=Novangel;51261000]No? Gender is purely a social construct.[/QUOTE] If gender is a social construct then why do transgender people transition instead of choosing to ignore society's views? Gender is [I]not[/I] a social construct. [I]Gender roles[/I] are. Gender is what sex your brain chemistry tells you that you're supposed to be.

[QUOTE=phygon;51261181]Yep, pretty much. If gender is a social construct then why do transgender people transition instead of choosing to ignore society's views? Gender is [I]not[/I] a social construct. [I]Gender roles[/I] are. Gender is what sex your brain chemistry tells you that you're supposed to be.[/QUOTE] No, gender is purely societal. Your brain chemistry doesn't tell you what you're meant to be, your social and cultural influences do. However your sex determines the difference in the male and female brain. Transgender people who choose to transition may have many reasons, though most do it to fit what gender they believe themselves to be. Some transgender people do choose to just ignore societal views, which is where transgender people without gender dysphoria or transition come from. [QUOTE=Zyler;51261112]What do you mean when you say Gender? Does it fit into one of the four definitions I typed up in my previous post?[/QUOTE] The WHO defines gender as [QUOTE]Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places.[/QUOTE] Gender roles mean how society expects your gender to behave, which is essentially the same thing?

[QUOTE=Novangel;51261370]No, gender is purely societal. Your brain chemistry doesn't tell you what you're meant to be, your social and cultural influences do. However your sex determines the difference in the male and female brain. Transgender people who choose to transition may have many reasons, though most do it to fit what gender they believe themselves to be. Some transgender people do choose to just ignore societal views, which is where transgender people without gender dysphoria or transition come from. The WHO defines gender as Gender roles mean how society expects your gender to behave, which is essentially the same thing?[/QUOTE] Have you seen this documentary by swedish comedian Harald Eia called "Brainwash" that got the Nordic Gender Institute shut down? It covers a range of topics, but one that they cover is the whole 'Nature versus Nuture" debate with regards to gender identity. You can view that part of the documentary here: [media]https://vimeo.com/19889788[/media] Essentially, he tries to look at both sides of the issue and he even records the experts who represent the opposing sides and shows the video recordings back-and-forth to let them rebutt each other. There's also a famous case with a woman called Shilamuth Firestone and a man called Professor John Money who convinced the parents of a non-transgendered boy to raise him as a girl in order to prove their theories of gender being entirely socially constructed- because the boy was not trans, he suffered inexorably throughout his childhood and later took his own life after finding out the truth. There have been numerous attempts to raise a child as the opposite gender from birth on the basis that gender is entirely socially constructed. All of these cases- as far as I am aware- have resulted in the child choosing to identify as their birth sex after finding out the truth as an adult, and most cases result in suicide. The results of these cases do not imply that gender is entirely biological or 'nature' based, the current pervading theory is that it is a combination of both a neurological component and a social aspect of gender performatism also known as gender expression based on societal perceptions of gender roles. Our brain chemistry tells us what gender identifying signals to look out for while our social actions allow us to discover how to express those signals outwardly.

[QUOTE=Zyler;51261517]Have you seen this documentary by swedish comedian Harald Eia called "Brainwash" that got the Nordic Gender Institute shut down? It covers a range of topics, but one that they cover is the whole 'Nature versus Nuture" debate with regards to gender identity. You can view that part of the documentary here: [media]https://vimeo.com/19889788[/media] Essentially, he tries to look at both sides of the issue and he even records the experts who represent the opposing sides and shows the video recordings back-and-forth to let them rebutt each other. There's also a famous case with a woman called Shilamuth Firestone and a man called Professor John Money who convinced the parents of a non-transgendered boy to raise him as a girl in order to prove their theories of gender being entirely socially constructed- because the boy was not trans, he suffered inexorably throughout his childhood and later took his own life after finding out the truth. There have been numerous attempts to raise a child as the opposite gender from birth on the basis that gender is entirely socially constructed. All of these cases- as far as I am aware- have resulted in the child choosing to identify as their birth sex after finding out the truth as an adult, and most cases result in suicide. The results of these cases do not imply that gender is entirely biological or 'nature' based, the current pervading theory is that it is a combination of both a neurological component and a social aspect of gender performatism also known as gender expression based on societal perceptions of gender roles. Our brain chemistry tells us what gender identifying signals to look out for while our social actions allow us to discover how to express those signals outwardly.[/QUOTE] I've seen the video, it's interesting though I believe there's some cherrypicking going on there. We've discussed John Money before, and all these cases prove is that you can't just force a gender on a child anyway. That said I'm nowhere near an expert in the topic and what I've said is purely from what I am aware of. Personally I believe both societal and sexual dimorphism have influences in the formation of the gender.