Trump to end DACA: report - Polidicks

[QUOTE=torres;52634295][Media]https://twitter.com/satanseyebrows/status/826149998811344896[/media] Forever relevant.[/QUOTE] Proud of the town I live in :') Also this is vindictive and just spiteful. Should be condemned by all sides.

"Its the law" is a terrible awful reason to do this. The law, is full of contradictions and exemptions. These are children, they have no other option, they are virtually stateless and us exporting them back to whatever arbitrary country we decide is going to endanger their lives. the law has room to allow these children here, hell, trump could give them political asylum, just like that, and its done.

[QUOTE=Chonch;52635055]DACA does not provide lawful status. "Illegal immigrant" is an appropriate term, and the one I will use going forward to avoid confusion. Feel free to use whatever words you want so long as we both understand about who and what we're discussing. As for my 'constitutionalist' position on the expected removal of DACA, I'm comfortable with the amount of clarity my previous posts provide. Are there specific points that aren't clear?[/QUOTE] Explain to me how axing this policy this makes America better. It's putting people who have lived in the USA all their lives and have committed no crimes at risk of deportation. These people did not choose to be illegal or undocumented migrants, they're victims of circumstance.

[QUOTE=Chonch;52635055]DACA does not provide lawful status. "Illegal immigrant" is an appropriate term, and the one I will use going forward to avoid confusion. Feel free to use whatever words you want so long as we both understand about who and what we're discussing. As for my 'constitutionalist' position on the expected removal of DACA, I'm comfortable with the amount of clarity my previous posts provide. Are there specific points that aren't clear? [/QUOTE] tell me how do you put a child on trial for a crime they cannot be responsible for committing? ya many of them are over 18 years old now, but the crime was committed by their parents, they're the victims, and they are totally stateless but our laws don't account for that, they assume everybody has a connection to where they legally are from, which is completely outdated.

Its like all we can do is say every conceivably bad thing about Trump that is possible in English. While we wait and see what happens, maybe hope for check and balances. Somethings wrong if that's are only choices.

[QUOTE=Chonch;52635055]DACA does not provide lawful status. "Illegal immigrant" is an appropriate term, and the one I will use going forward to avoid confusion. Feel free to use whatever words you want so long as we both understand about who and what we're discussing. As for my 'constitutionalist' position on the expected removal of DACA, I'm comfortable with the amount of clarity my previous posts provide. Are there specific points that aren't clear? While impressive and disconcerting, this estimate represents a one-time sum that could be spread out over a period of time, provided ICE decides to immediately start deporting DACA's recipients. I have my doubts on that front.[/QUOTE] If you were as committed as you claim to be to the issue of executive overstep, which you've made clear is your main contention here, you would be calling for a constitutional change to way they're used. But you're not, not just because Donald Trump already is and will continue to be dependent on them, or because George Bush signed more of them into existence than Barack Obama, or because the Supreme Court has already ruled on their legality, but most fundamentally because this isn't about redressing a problem. It's about retaliation. Ostensibly against Obama, but functionally against the beneficiaries of the executive order, in this case the DACA, which exists thanks to Republican gridlock after the ACA passed. Which is why no one is buying your shit.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;52635627]Explain to me how axing this policy this makes America better. It's putting people who have lived in the USA all their lives and have committed no crimes at risk of deportation. These people did not choose to be illegal or undocumented migrants, they're victims of circumstance.[/QUOTE] I think you're over-simplifying the situation. There are specific guidelines on who is eligible for DACA's prosecutorial discretion, and within that scope, there's more than enough room for those who commit crimes or arrived here in their teens. Now don't get me wrong, I have no interest in ruining the lives of the so-called "DREAMers," if you understand what's meant by that term. Adults brought over illegally by their parents at very young ages (toddlers, babies, not teenagers) are actually good candidates for full amnesty – they've spent their formative years in this country and more often than not identify as American over anything else. They may very well deserve protection, but DACA does not offer that. Any of its beneficiaries could have their deferral revoked at a moment's notice with little oversight; the program is just an abstinence from duty by the executive branch, providing no legal protection whatsoever from existing immigration law. A stronger amnesty grant would need to be legislated to provide the lasting exception from prosecution these illegal immigrants expect, and that's Congress' job. The radical anti-borders/pro-illegal immgiration crowd that stirs up all the noise around this issue deserves to have its views tested on the floor of the governing body mandated to make and change law, rather than rely on temporary crutches like DACA. To go along stalling the problem through executive order is a flagrant disregard for the multitude of very specific laws outlining how our immigration system is to be enforced, and it simply does not conform with the appropriate role of the President. In short, I want this order overturned so we can encourage a strong legislative decision on the subject that will provide lasting closure for the legal plight of the illegal immigrants who depend on the program, as opposed to leaving them in a perpetual victimhood limbo of uncertainty. Additionally, I believe that holding the line and enforcing our separation of powers will make America better by reinforcing the strength of our existing law over specious political actions. [QUOTE=Kommodore;52636015]If you were as committed as you claim to be to the issue of executive overstep, which you've made clear is your main contention here, you would be calling for a constitutional change to way they're used. But you're not, not just because Donald Trump already is and will continue to be dependent on them, or because George Bush signed more of them into existence than Barack Obama, or because the Supreme Court has already ruled on their legality, but most fundamentally because this isn't about redressing a problem. It's about retaliation. Ostensibly against Obama, but functionally against the beneficiaries of the executive order, in this case the DACA, which exists thanks to Republican gridlock after the ACA passed. Which is why no one is buying your shit.[/QUOTE] You go ahead and think whatever you want to think, but I've made myself about as crystal clear on this news article as I can, and it's all available for you to read and re-read as you see fit until you get it. I'm a lot of awful things, but dishonest is not one of them.

[QUOTE=Chonch;52634429]The terrible risk of implementing DACA in the first place was that the individuals it serviced would end up even easier to deport by a future administration, since they were required to provide their information to the federal government to receive consideration for the program. It's not pretty, and I'm sure the program was never intended to be taken out so soon after its establishment, but we must remember that it was also never intended to be more than a precarious stop-gap while waiting for the proper Congressional balance to provide a permanent solution for these illegals. It's depressing, but it's reality.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Chonch;52636121]In short, I want this order overturned so we can encourage a strong legislative decision on the subject that will provide lasting closure for the legal plight of the illegal immigrants who depend on the program, as opposed to leaving them in a perpetual victimhood limbo of uncertainty. Additionally, I believe that holding the line and enforcing our separation of powers will make America better by reinforcing the strength of our existing law over specious political actions.[/QUOTE] This is Chonchism 101. Your first response to Trump's bullshit is to criticise Obama for not having prevented the bullshit, and then you defend the bullshit through incomprehensible circular logic "the program could be ended at any time and that would be awful, therefore it should be ended immediately"

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52636144]This is Chonchism 101. Your first response to Trump's bullshit is to criticise Obama for not having prevented the bullshit, and then you defend the bullshit through incomprehensible circular logic "the program could be ended at any time and that would be awful, therefore it should be ended immediately"[/QUOTE] And you'll note that, like other FP Trump fans, he knows he can't defend his central points after we spend a page ripping them apart, so he waits for a page or two and scrolls past all the refutations until he finds something safe to reply to, like quibbling over semantics or arguing about a slight and completely unimportant misinterpretation of something minor that he said They know what they [i]want[/i] to believe, but they knows that they can't rationally justify it, so to avoid having to change their minds or even acknowledge that they're fundamentally wrong about everything, they just pretend that the countless rebuttals never happened Like how you could go into a wystan thread and post study after study about how torture does not work and no one in the western world -- even the CIA -- thinks it should be used, and wystan would flat-out ignore them like they never existed because he [i]wanted[/i] to believe in a massive government torture machine Alternate ending: he glosses over everything by saying "I think I was clear enough! Are there [i]specific points[/i] that aren't clear?" as if his argument, which we just refuted piece-by-piece, is obviously flawless and he just wasn't clear enough for us to ~understand it~

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;52634804]Ladies and Gentlemen, the party of Fiscal Conservatism[/QUOTE] It's almost like their politicians don't actually care about being fiscally conservative and instead just want to personally benefit from this stuff. Who would've guessed? :v: [QUOTE=Chonch;52636121]You go ahead and think whatever you want to think, but I've made myself about as crystal clear on this news article as I can, and it's all available for you to read and re-read as you see fit until you get it. I'm a lot of awful things, but dishonest is not one of them.[/QUOTE] You're rarely clear on anything. You continuously evade the point as much as possible such as fixating on Lambeth's point about calling them "undocumented immigrants" rather than "illegal immigrants" while basically completely ignoring the rest of his point. And if there's one phrase to describe you "intellectually dishonest" is the first one that comes to mind. And I'd think most people here would be in full agreement with that claim. You continuously evade the point, shift blame, move goal posts, and in general just disappear when none of those methods will work. How is that anything [I]but[/I] dishonest?

[QUOTE=Chonch;52636121] -Pseudolegal ramblings- [/quote] Rubbish. The situation here is the similar as with ACA; current system may be broken and needs to be replaced, but scrapping it altogether without a replacement approved benefits nobody except GOP's political convenience and those with vindictive attitude towards said illegals. There is an argument that this is an executive overreach and proper judicial channels must be followed, but herein is the crucial difference: either you are concerned about those affected with the repeal and advocate a congressional solution before repeal, [B]or[/B] you don't care about those affected and advocate immediate repeal. You may argue for later correction, but that is merely a rhetorical device to gain more support from those undecided. The reality is that prospects of better system are unknown and if anything comes, the damage will have already been done. Simply put, demanding immediate repeal while claiming to care about fallout is, well... [QUOTE=Chonch;52636121] You go ahead and think whatever you want to think, but I've made myself about as crystal clear on this news article as I can, and it's all available for you to read and re-read as you see fit until you get it. I'm a lot of awful things, but dishonest is not one of them.[/QUOTE] I don't know much about you, but I do find that adjective descriptive for reliably skating around arguments presented.

[QUOTE=Chonch;52636121]I'm a lot of awful things, but dishonest is not one of them.[/QUOTE] I don't know, the 'counter-intelligence probe' things seems to paint a very different picture.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52636207]I don't know, the 'counter-intelligence probe' things seems to paint a very different picture.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]You go ahead and think whatever you want to think, but I've made myself about as crystal clear on this news article as I can, and it's all available for you to read and re-read as you see fit until you get it. I'm a lot of awful things, but dishonest is not one of them.[/QUOTE] "I'm not being dishonest, you just didn't understand my flawless argument and your systematic rebuttal is just an opinion :freakout:"

[QUOTE=Chonch;52636121]I think you're over-simplifying the situation. There are specific guidelines on who is eligible for DACA's prosecutorial discretion, and within that scope, there's more than enough room for those who commit crimes or arrived here in their teens.[/QUOTE] But broadly speaking I believe they are very well behaved. [QUOTE=Chonch;52636121]Now don't get me wrong, I have no interest in ruining the lives of the so-called "DREAMers," if you understand what's meant by that term. Adults brought over illegally by their parents at very young ages (toddlers, babies, not teenagers) are actually good candidates for full amnesty – they've spent their formative years in this country and more often than not identify as American over anything else. They may very well deserve protection, but DACA does not offer that. Any of its beneficiaries could have their deferral revoked at a moment's notice with little oversight; the program is just an abstinence from duty by the executive branch, providing no legal protection whatsoever from existing immigration law. A stronger amnesty grant would need to be legislated to provide the lasting exception from prosecution these illegal immigrants expect, and that's Congress' job. The radical anti-borders/pro-illegal immgiration crowd that stirs up all the noise around this issue deserves to have its views tested on the floor of the governing body mandated to make and change law, rather than rely on temporary crutches like DACA. To go along stalling the problem through executive order is a flagrant disregard for the multitude of very specific laws outlining how our immigration system is to be enforced, and it simply does not conform with the appropriate role of the President.[/QUOTE] You sound like you're ripping into Obama for not going far enough to solve the problem and going too far at the same time, which one is it? [QUOTE=Chonch;52636121]In short, I want this order overturned so we can encourage a strong legislative decision on the subject that will provide lasting closure for the legal plight of the illegal immigrants who depend on the program, as opposed to leaving them in a perpetual victimhood limbo of uncertainty. Additionally, I believe that holding the line and enforcing our separation of powers will make America better by reinforcing the strength of our existing law over specious political actions.[/QUOTE] I kind doubt that will happen and it's a real dick move to get rid of this policy without having anything to take it's place. But we already know the GOP is totally fine with that after the Obamacare repeal.

A bit late to the party but this is honestly the most pathetic modern adminstration in U.S history.

My Hispanic girlfriend of two years is protected by DACA. She is 100x more American than Trump or I will ever be, she came here as an immigrant as a child, went through highschool in student body leadership positions, has done 100's of hours of service in the community, speaks better English than me, and is getting her degree in non-profit management. Works 40 hours a week and goes to college full time. If Trump repeals DACA then she loses her work permit and her ability to go to college and risks deportation. She is literally American for all intents and purposes having lived her for 18 years (95% of her life) and pays taxes. There is so much research that has proven immigration is good for the economy, and every immigrant I've ever met has a stronger work ethic than I do. [b]Basically all I have to say is fuck Donald Trump, and fuck the people who fucked over the American middle class through capitalist driven globalization. Then once they got rich through slave wage labor abroad, manipulated poor working class white people into believing that racial minorities were responsible for all their economic problems. Doing so to get more voters into the republican party which is dominated by Citizen's United money, and to separate America into racial categories to prevent poor people of all colors from stopping the booshie aristocrats from taking over America.[/b] Alas the plan is working perfectly, the rich have divided the working class and the poor class into subsections (race/nationality) to prevent us from uniting and reforming America into a more egalitarian society. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's just what happened.

Just wanted to add to this thread that [URL="https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-daca/house-speaker-urges-trump-not-to-scrap-dreamers-immigration-policy-idUSKCN1BC5PT"]Paul Ryan and Orin Hatch[/URL] both disagree with Trump. Conch you should read this, they actually have well thought out arguments on this matter.

[QUOTE=CreeplyTuna;52644938]Just wanted to add to this thread that [URL="https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-daca/house-speaker-urges-trump-not-to-scrap-dreamers-immigration-policy-idUSKCN1BC5PT"]Paul Ryan and Orin Hatch[/URL] both disagree with Trump. Conch you should read this, they actually have well thought out arguments on this matter.[/QUOTE] If mcconnell gets onboard they might be able to do something. if he doesn't then it's screwed.

When I first posted this thread, Trump has not fully decided whether or not to end DACA He has now [url]http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/03/trump-dreamers-immigration-daca-immigrants-242301[/url]

There goes billions of dollars to take away protections to people who really should be citizens but aren't because Congress couldn't get its shit in gear during Obama's terms and it still can't. I bet 95% of those DACA people Trump's just struck fear into are more American than the Nazi fucks he refuses to fully distance himself from unless reading a speech someone else made him read.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52645397]There goes billions of dollars to take away protections to people who really should be citizens but aren't because Congress couldn't get its shit in gear during Obama's terms and it still can't. I bet 95% of those DACA people Trump's just struck fear into are more American than the Nazi fucks he refuses to fully distance himself from unless reading a speech someone else made him read.[/QUOTE] imo we should deport the Nazis, white supremacists, and Confederate sympathizers before dreamers.

[QUOTE=Llamalord;52644905]My Hispanic girlfriend of two years is protected by DACA. She is 100x more American than Trump or I will ever be, she came here as an immigrant as a child, went through highschool in student body leadership positions, has done 100's of hours of service in the community, speaks better English than me, and is getting her degree in non-profit management. Works 40 hours a week and goes to college full time. If Trump repeals DACA then she loses her work permit and her ability to go to college and risks deportation. She is literally American for all intents and purposes having lived her for 18 years (95% of her life) and pays taxes. There is so much research that has proven immigration is good for the economy, and every immigrant I've ever met has a stronger work ethic than I do. [b]Basically all I have to say is fuck Donald Trump, and fuck the people who fucked over the American middle class through capitalist driven globalization. Then once they got rich through slave wage labor abroad, manipulated poor working class white people into believing that racial minorities were responsible for all their economic problems. Doing so to get more voters into the republican party which is dominated by Citizen's United money, and to separate America into racial categories to prevent poor people of all colors from stopping the booshie aristocrats from taking over America.[/b] Alas the plan is working perfectly, the rich have divided the working class and the poor class into subsections (race/nationality) to prevent us from uniting and reforming America into a more egalitarian society. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's just what happened.[/QUOTE] [b]EDIT:[/b] Welp looks like I'm going to have marry my girlfriend or her life is ruined for the next 4 years.

I'm on DACA and I'm not too worried. Luckily I wasn't dumb enough to trust the US government and didn't apply for a job under it. Can't say the same for other people on the program sadly. Hopefully this pushes Congress to do something but I'm not hopeful on that one.

[QUOTE=Retinazer;52645303]When I first posted this thread, Trump has not fully decided whether or not to end DACA He has now [url]http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/03/trump-dreamers-immigration-daca-immigrants-242301[/url][/QUOTE] [quote]But a senior White House aide said that chief of staff John Kelly, who has been running the West Wing policy process on the issue, “thinks Congress should’ve gotten its act together a lot longer ago.”[/quote] thats a fairly big loose-loose scenario for republicans, Trump is seen as being heartless, Congressional republicans go on record either voting to deport almost a million hard working people who committed no crime through their own actions, or they enact some program that will be deeply reviled by their extreme right wing base. TLDR they should have not fucked around with this and gotten it done last year while they could have still pinned the blame on Obama, plus they didn't have the massive fucking logjam that they do now thanks to their own incompetent fuckery. they have nobody to blame but themselves because they've controlled the legislative agenda for years now and could easily have done something about this one very specific immigration issue without touching larger immigration reform.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;52645424]imo we should deport the Nazis, white supremacists, and Confederate sympathizers before dreamers.[/QUOTE] We should just give them a white ethnostate in like, Kansas. Or Wyoming. Somewhere that nobody cares about and nobody actually [I]has[/I] to visit for any reason. Send them there, to start a new white-only America, in the heartland of the country. Let them live out their fantasies, give them a bunch of guns, build a big fence, and let them shoot each other once they realize that they're too poorly-equipped to handle anything.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52645481]We should just give them a white ethnostate in like, Kansas. Somewhere that nobody cares about. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=.Isak.;52645481][B]Kansas. Somewhere that nobody cares about.[/B] [/QUOTE] I care about my new home. :frown:

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52645481]We should just give them a white ethnostate in like, Kansas. Or Wyoming. Somewhere that nobody cares about and nobody actually [I]has[/I] to visit for any reason. Send them there, to start a new white-only America, in the heartland of the country. Let them live out their fantasies, give them a bunch of guns, build a big fence, and let them shoot each other once they realize that they're too poorly-equipped to handle anything.[/QUOTE] I don't know if your idea is tongue-in-cheek or should be taken seriously. Still this idea is stupid and shortsighted, this will never work in the long-term.

There is rumors of three thing happening. 1. Trump Jumped ahead to Pander to his base, but he still hasn't "decided" yet. (which would fit with him) 2. DACA is actually gone. 3. He's deflecting against another huge story coming out.

By the way, DACA was probably gonna end sooner then later. Some of the states were planning on suing the US government to get rid of it on Tuesday and that's why Trump needed to make a statement by then. DACA wasn't going to hold up in court since its the Congresses Job to enforce immigration laws not the presidents. If Trump didn't do anything, DACA eventually would get taken out through the court system and Congresses would be sitting on their ass the whole way through. At least giving them a 6 month window forces congress to do something if they don't want to take any blame for it. But like I said in my previous post, I don't expect anything to get passed since its US the government were talking about.

[QUOTE=dark soul;52645524]By the way, DACA was probably gonna end sooner then later. Some of the states were planning on suing the US government to get rid of it on Tuesday and that's why Trump needed to make a statement by then. DACA wasn't going to hold up in court since its the Congresses Job to enforce immigration laws not the presidents. If Trump didn't do anything, DACA eventually would get taken out through the court system and Congresses would be sitting on their ass the whole way through. At least giving them a 6 month window forces congress to do something if they don't want to take any blame for it. But like I said in my previous post, I don't expect anything to get passed since its US the government were talking about.[/QUOTE] US Congress is staggeringly incompetent but I guess that's bound to happen when one party wants to destroy the state.