• Climate change denial will be ‘default position’ of White House says Trump’s chief of staff
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[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51449141]Eliminating plane a car travel doesn't leave many options for Americans. That is 99% of our transportation infrastructure. Rail networks are woefully inadequate, and public transportation is only prevalent in major city centers.[/QUOTE] Not to mention the backbone of America's supply logistics are huge fleets of semi-trucks.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;51449014] and avoid using cars as much as possible.[/QUOTE] My job is 27 miles from my home, literally impossible for me.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;51449147]"Avoid using cars as much as possible" I get that a lot of people are completely dependent on their cars, just saying that you should avoid using it when you can.[/QUOTE] Saying a lot of Americans are dependent on their cars is kind of like saying that a lot of fish are dependent on water, is the thing. I can appreciate your point, but the reality of living in America is that you need a car to be able to function. Excepting those living in highly developed major cities, at least. San Francisco, New York, Chicago, etc.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;51449181]I guess I phrased it poorly, I meant avoid using cars when you can.[/QUOTE] Haha, I know what you're trying to say, and I appreciate the idea behind it. I'm just trying to explain that if you actually need to go somewhere, you have to drive. The only way to avoid using cars is to simply avoid leaving home.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51449178]Saying a lot of Americans are dependent on their cars is kind of like saying that a lot of fish are dependent on water, is the thing. I can appreciate your point, but the reality of living in America is that you need a car to be able to function. Excepting those living in highly developed major cities, at least. San Francisco, New York, Chicago, etc.[/QUOTE] why can't people use public transportation or carpool until EVs are the standard everywhere
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449216]why can't people use public transportation or carpool until EVs are the standard everywhere[/QUOTE] Closes bus station to my house is a mile away and no buses on that route go anywhere near my place of employment. Upon that, no one I work with lives anywhere near me and so carpooling is not an option.
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449216]why can't people use public transportation or carpool until EVs are the standard everywhere[/QUOTE] The buses where I live don't run to where I work at the late hour I go to work and there's a total of 4 people on my shift at the moment, none of which live anywhere near me or go near my house on the way to work. Driving is literally my only option.
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449216]why can't people use public transportation or carpool until EVs are the standard everywhere[/QUOTE] Because public transit in the US varies between nonexistent and just plain terrible and in a lot of cases that winds up still being a problem even with carpooling because Americans tend to be so spread out
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51449243]Closes bus station to my house is a mile away and no buses on that route go anywhere near my place of employment. Upon that, no one I work with lives anywhere near me and so carpooling is not an option.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Anderan;51449262]The buses where I live don't run to where I work at the late hour I go to work and there's a total of 4 people on my shift at the moment, none of which live anywhere near me or go near my house on the way to work. Driving is literally my only option.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sitkero;51449301]Because public transit in the US varies between nonexistent and just plain terrible and in a lot of cases that winds up still being a problem even with carpooling because Americans tend to be so spread out[/QUOTE] is it too much to ask that people work together to solve these kinds of issues? or am i dreaming too big here
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449309]is it too much to ask that people work together to solve these kinds of issues? or am i dreaming too big here[/QUOTE] It's not a matter of working together though. Without public transportation being expanded it's outright not an option for some people. I've only got a 10 minute drive to work anyways, and no walking isn't an option due to it being by highway. It sorta defeats the point of carpooling if you double the distance that one car has to travel.
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449309]is it too much to ask that people work together to solve these kinds of issues? or am i dreaming too big here[/QUOTE] How would you suggest any of those things might be solved through good-natured people coming together? Like, people who care about the environment perform a mass exodus so they're all relocated closer to the workplace or somewhere more carpool-friendly? :v:
[QUOTE=Anderan;51449319]It's not a matter of working together though. Without public transportation being expanded it's outright not an option for some people. I've only got a 10 minute drive to work anyways, and no walking isn't an option due to it being by highway.[/QUOTE] that is a matter of working together. work together with your governments and transportation agencies to enact the change you desire it only has to be done once doesn't matter if it's hard. do you think traveling across the atlantic ocean for the first time to develop these communities was easy? but yeah, that's too ideal to be a reality i guess
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449326]that is a matter of working together. work together with your governments and transportation agencies to enact the change you desire it only has to be done once doesn't matter if it's hard. do you think traveling across the atlantic ocean for the first time to develop these communities was easy? but yeah, that's too ideal to be a reality i guess[/QUOTE] "working together" would imply I have some sort of contribution to the project. You don't "work with" your local government, you at best ask/demand that they do things. Also it requires there to be enough demand for the change to be considered. But even assuming I managed to get my city to run the bus to where I want to go, in my case it's still a vehicle transporting one person to one destination so it is literally the exact same amount of vehicles on the road, except one is a bus and one is a small car.
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449309]is it too much to ask that people work together to solve these kinds of issues? or am i dreaming too big here[/QUOTE] It's slightly difficult to work together when it comes to something like carpooling in the face of shit like this [img]http://puu.sh/szdvf/6933d3c799.jpg[/img] This is Plano, a city just north of Dallas, TX That is almost all suburbia and those big spots on the intersections are storefront clusters Even if there was public transit or even just provisions for carpooling, nothing is centralized, everybody's spread way the fuck out, and the traffic on the main roads is always shit because there are [I]so many fucking stoplights[/I] The philosophy behind most American transit infrastructure basically boils down to "Own a car or get fucked and then get fucked anyway" There are a few ways you could start to unfuck it, but it's really important to realize just how goddamn fucked it is first
Also a lot of smaller cities just don't have the budget to support an extensive public transit network. [editline]30th November 2016[/editline] My side of town can't even get the city to reliably fill potholes, much less expand public transit. I'd love more sidewalks and crosswalks in my area but honestly it's not going to happen.
[QUOTE=Sitkero;51449351]It's slightly difficult to work together when it comes to something like carpooling in the face of shit like this [IMG]http://puu.sh/szdvf/6933d3c799.jpg[/IMG] This is Plano, a city just north of Dallas, TX That is almost all suburbia and those big spots on the intersections are storefront clusters Even if there was public transit or even just provisions for carpooling, nothing is centralized, everybody's spread way the fuck out, and the traffic on the main roads is always shit because there are [I]so many fucking stoplights[/I] The philosophy behind most American transit infrastructure basically boils down to "Own a car or get fucked and then get fucked anyway" There are a few ways you could start to unfuck it, but it's really important to realize just how goddamn fucked it is first[/QUOTE] carpooling isn't the only option electric buses are already a reality, and can be ordered right now for under $415,846 per bus (and that's using the top scale of their price range, they actually run for much cheaper (potentially 100k cheaper) im sure there are plenty of americans who would be willing to crowdfund a fair distribution of ebus terminals
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449370]carpooling isn't the only option electric buses are already a reality, and can be ordered right now im sure there are plenty of americans who would be willing to crowdfund a fair distribution of ebus terminals[/QUOTE] It's one thing to buy the buses, it's another for a city to work maintaining them into their budget.
[QUOTE=Anderan;51449377]It's one thing to buy the buses, it's another for a city to work maintaining them into their budget.[/QUOTE] maintaining EVs are nothing compared to motor vehicles no oil changes no refueling (only recharging) no spark plug changes required no muffler maintenance break maintenance costs half as much less training required for mechanics the list goes on
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449398]maintaining EVs are nothing compared to motor vehicles no oil changes no refueling (only recharging) no spark plug changes required no muffler maintenance break maintenance costs half as much less training required for mechanics the list goes on[/QUOTE] cheaper =! affordable. Also they have to build charging stations for the buses. From what I can find the battery life of electric buses is still far from sufficient to meet the demands of public transit.
This is the biggest issue I have with Trump. I loved Obama's strides in environmental regulations etc although I personally had family members go hungry when the coal mines in TN and KY were shut down
[QUOTE=Anderan;51449409]cheaper =! affordable. Also they have to build charging stations for the buses. From what I can find the battery life of electric buses is still far from sufficient to meet the demands of public transit.[/QUOTE] they reach an average 250 km per charge at the moment and this is a technology which grows exponentially terminals themselves can be charging stations. and like i said, i'm sure there are plenty of americans willing to crowdfund for a fair distribution of terminals combine that with federal and/or state funding, along with a fare for the transportation (which could equal to less than it takes to pay for gas), just imagine what could get done by say, 2025.
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449425]they reach an average 250 km per charge at the moment and this is a technology which grows exponentially terminals themselves can be charging stations. and like i said, i'm sure there are plenty of americans willing to crowdfund for a fair distribution of terminals combine that with federal and/or state funding, along with a fare for the transportation (which could equal to less than it takes to pay for gas), just imagine what could get done by say, 2025.[/QUOTE] You keep bringing up crowdfunding but how exactly are smaller cities going to raise money for a fleet of buses that, from what I can find, cost almost $400,000 each? Getting sufficient state funding is already a contributing issue to the poor state of public transit. I don't think there's anywhere near enough people as you think that would be willing to crowdfund a fleet of electric buses, maybe in big cities but not the majority of the US.
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449216]why can't people use public transportation or carpool until EVs are the standard everywhere[/QUOTE] Public transportation doesn't exist in the most of the United States, as I was explaining earlier. It's only prevalent in major cities. Everywhere else, it's a rarity. Carpooling is also only a practical option if you happen to live near your coworkers. Given that the average commute in the US is 25 minutes at highway speeds, that is rarely an efficient solution.
[QUOTE=Anderan;51449409]cheaper =! affordable. Also they have to build charging stations for the buses. From what I can find the battery life of electric buses is still far from sufficient to meet the demands of public transit.[/QUOTE] Battery life is kind of a non-issue, I think, at least in a place like the suburban hellhole I posted above. That stretch of the 75 running through the middle is less than a twenty mile run from the bottom to the top of the image The biggest issue, to my mind, is still decentralization, with cost compounding the issue Despite how densely packed they are, those suburban areas are still largely single house units packed into one to two square mile areas [IMG]http://puu.sh/szeWs/78b7ea99ac.jpg[/IMG] Really nice for the real estate industry's profit margin, fucking nightmarish for public transit The biggest problem I can think of is where to put the stops and how that'll effect the efficiency of the system. Too far apart, it's going to be more convenient to just drive yourself, too close together and you're going to spend so much time stopping and starting that driving yourself winds up more convenient again [editline]Hyenas[/editline] Make no mistake, I am absolutely 110% in favor of any kind of public transit taking hold in this country outside the big cities, but the infrastructure is just seriously, painfully skewed towards cars and only cars
[QUOTE=Lolkork;51449230]That really sucks. I guess my perspective is very different. Here we have pretty good public transport, and in my home town most things are less than 20 min away on bike, but everyone still drive everywhere because its the comfortable option.[/QUOTE] Twenty minutes away [I]by car[/I] is about the standard here. If I live within a twenty minute drive of groceries, shopping, work, and entertainment, I consider myself pretty well situated.
Public transportation is really only currently efficient for more dense and tightly knit urban centers and cities, longer and more personal commutes that arent tied to efficient bus routes warrant a car most of the time.
[QUOTE=Anderan;51449458]You keep bringing up crowdfunding but how exactly are smaller cities going to raise money for a fleet of buses that, from what I can find, cost almost $400,000 each? Getting sufficient state funding is already a contributing issue to the poor state of public transit. I don't think there's anywhere near enough people as you think that would be willing to crowdfund a fleet of electric buses, maybe in big cities but not the majority of the US.[/QUOTE] you're thinking on too much of a short term these buses are getting cheaper by the month imagine how much all of this would cost 5 years from now. 10? 5 dollars per year from 150 million americans (that's being conservative, as it's less than half the US population ) can go a long way if put together with federal and state funding for the same amount of time. it would eventually pay for itself (or even profit) if it became a standard across the country change doesn't happen in a year [editline]30th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sitkero;51449515]Battery life is kind of a non-issue, I think, at least in a place like the suburban hellhole I posted above. That stretch of the 75 running through the middle is less than a twenty mile run from the bottom to the top of the image The biggest issue, to my mind, is still decentralization, with cost compounding the issue Despite how densely packed they are, those suburban areas are still largely single house units packed into one to two square mile areas [IMG]http://puu.sh/szeWs/78b7ea99ac.jpg[/IMG] Really nice for the real estate industry's profit margin, fucking nightmarish for public transit The biggest problem I can think of is where to put the stops and how that'll effect the efficiency of the system. Too far apart, it's going to be more convenient to just drive yourself, too close together and you're going to spend so much time stopping and starting that driving yourself winds up more convenient again [editline]Hyenas[/editline] Make no mistake, I am absolutely 110% in favor of any kind of public transit taking hold in this country outside the big cities, but the infrastructure is just seriously, painfully skewed towards cars and only cars[/QUOTE] property can be bought and put to use. Jimmy on the corner moving to another state and happens to be within a 10km margin for bus terminal distribution the average amecian moves 11.7 times in their lifetime all it takes is timing
[QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449326]that is a matter of working together. work together with your governments and transportation agencies to enact the change you desire it only has to be done once doesn't matter if it's hard. do you think traveling across the atlantic ocean for the first time to develop these communities was easy? but yeah, that's too ideal to be a reality i guess[/QUOTE] Plenty of people are, but this isn't something that happens over night. We have a metrolink in Saint Louis, but it has [I]extremely[/I] limited range and service. We've been trying to expand it for ten, fifteen years now. The last time it went up for a vote to expand our public transportation from the city to the surrounding suburbs, local news stations started running feverish stories about how the black people in Saint Louis would ride the metro into richer, whiter Saint Charles and steal televisions, rape women, and get kids hooked on heroin. I wish that were a joke. The measure failed in a landslide. Eventually, I hope, we'll finally begin to prioritize public transport, but it isn't going to happen quickly. Highway congestion becomes a greater problem by the day, and the constant, humongous highway construction projects around the city are only barely managing to keep up. The Missouri Dept of Transportation is stretched thin to increase the capacity of our highways, we're doing very little to actually try to reduce the number of vehicles on the road. Clearly, the solution is expanding our public transport networks, but see above for what happened the last time we tried to secure funding for it.
One thing that was encouraging is how some major metropolitan cities such as Berlin have a great transit system. I think more people actually take the subway, train or bus to move their way around the city rather than taking the car, considering there's quite some gridlock there in the morning. I've been there myself with my family last weekend and it's fascinating how efficient everything is there. You can quickly find your way through Google Maps as long as you have your starting location and destination, and you can quickly tell which line to take, which train you need and on which bus you have to hop on to get there.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51449575]Plenty of people are, but this isn't something that happens over night. We have a metrolink in Saint Louis, but it has [I]extremely[/I] limited range and service. We've been trying to expand it for ten, fifteen years now. The last time it went up for a vote to expand our public transportation from the city to the surrounding suburbs, local news stations started running feverish stories about how the black people in Saint Louis would ride the metro into richer, whiter Saint Charles and steal televisions, rape women, and get kids hooked on heroin. I wish that were a joke. The measure failed in a landslide.[/QUOTE] i'm not claiming it would happen overnight [QUOTE=Mr Clean;51449553]imagine how much all of this would cost 5 years from now. 10?[/QUOTE] and distributing ebus terminals is far less taxing and take a lot less effort than expanding a metro system. it's pretty disheartening to hear that story, though. like i said, dreaming big
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