• AMD unveils "Mantle", an open graphics API that allows console like direct to metal optimization on
    126 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42314783]if skyrim was using ID Tech 5 instead of that horrendous pile of shit they call creation engine, the game probably would have used 4 cores efficiently. so yeah, upgrading to better code bases that already support multithreading and don't need to be entirely re-written. I'm using the number 8 because 1: this thread is about new technology that, among other things, allows a game to utilize 8 cores, and 2: I have an 8 core CPU and I want to see games start taking advantage of it. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] reading the op will answer 2 of those, common sense will answer the other one.[/QUOTE] seeing that (according to the article) mantle is supposedly a purely graphical api, it would make sense to assume that the '8 cores' thing is something that Frostbite 3 is doing on their own and not something that mantle is responsible for and if Skyrim used Id 5 then yeah, they wouldn't need to write multithreading - but they'd have to rewrite pretty much everything else it's not as simple as just upgrading to [I]Id Tech 5 Multithreading (tm)[/I]
[QUOTE=Darkimmortal;42315315]That's simply wrong. The only issue with their drivers is the unresponsive UI of the control panel (nvidia is not a lot better in this regard), and 3rd party tools easily workaround this.[/QUOTE] Just because you've never had to deal with hourly driver crashes, micro stutter, artifacts, and everything else doesn't mean the rest of us haven't dealt with some/all of those. Newer cards have had fewer issues, but even they have had stupid amounts of performance improvements with subsequent driver releases, which pretty much by definition means that the drivers they shipped with were garbage. Do the cards work? Usually, and in fact their high end releases typically work reasonably well barring the occasional massive fuckup, but you cannot pretend that AMD driver support isn't frequently dismal, especially on hardware more than 2-3 years old, or on cards that aren't their flagships.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;42315421]Actually no it doesn't. Why does it matter what your CPU is for a [b]graphics api[/b]? In addition, for most tasks that aren't absolutely perfectly multithreaded (like encoding video or compressing files), intels quad cores very frequently beat AMD octocores, even on multithreaded applications. You're just parroting the marketing bile.[/QUOTE] ..... what. first of all, read the fucking op. it says in plain english that Mantle allows the game to fully utilize 8 cores. furthermore, telling me intel quad cores beat AMD octocores proves my point, so please tell me what the fuck you're going on about. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Juniez;42315469]seeing that (according to the article) mantle is supposedly a purely graphical api, it would make sense to assume that the '8 cores' thing is something that Frostbite 3 is doing on their own and not something that mantle is responsible for and if Skyrim used Id 5 then yeah, they wouldn't need to write multithreading - but they'd have to rewrite pretty much everything else it's not as simple as just upgrading to [I]Id Tech 5 Multithreading (tm)[/I][/QUOTE] I didn't say if they ported skyrim to id tech 5. I said if they made it using id tech 5. they wouldn't be re-writing anything because they'd be designing the game from the ground up on id tech 5. if the 8 core utilization is just a frostbite 3 thing then this Mantle promotion is extremely dishonest.
[QUOTE=aydin690;42312176]However, as capable as opengl is, at the end of the day, it's still a general purpose graphics API and not one that's made specifically for games. That's why Direct3D has always been the more popular choice. It's just more suitable for games than general purpose API's. [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] I swear most of you linux guys are like richard stallman, even if you don't see it. Just because something is free or open, it doesn't mean it's an attractive option for devs. The most attractive features for devs are ease of use and how much time it's going to save them (by either having pre-written game specific routines, data structures, object classes, etc or by reducing the time they need to spend optimizing the game). Too lazy to paraphrase so im just gonna copy paste: This could very well become the next big thing for games (if it delivers on its promises).[/QUOTE] the primary reason developers tend to use DirectX is because microsoft pushes for it constantly and aggressively. OpenGL would be just as functional (as if it isn't already, it's just different) as DX if it wasn't fucked over backwards
Hey programmers, if you want a high paying job in the games industry, now's the time to start looking into this. If you can program in ASM or the upcoming Mantle API, you're going to be a very valuable employee.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42315683]..... what. first of all, read the fucking op. it says in plain english that Mantle allows the game to fully utilize 8 cores. furthermore, telling me intel quad cores beat AMD octocores proves my point, so please tell me what the fuck you're going on about. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] I didn't say if they ported skyrim to id tech 5. I said if they made it using id tech 5. they wouldn't be re-writing anything because they'd be designing the game from the ground up on id tech 5. if the 8 core utilization is just a frostbite 3 thing then this Mantle promotion is extremely dishonest.[/QUOTE] You really don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about. This was already perfectly explained: [QUOTE=nikomo;42314143]You don't see why, because you have no idea how this works. Mantle reduces the overhead from rendering with your GPU, you can't utilize all the CPU cores for CPU-related tasks if you have to take care of the overhead of using your GPU. 3D rendering is complex, really complex.[/QUOTE] Mantle is not a magical tool that will split your game engine into parallel tasks that can be threaded properly. The amount of cores you have is irrelevant, you'd get a performance boost for games that run on a single thread also since telling the GPU what to do through DirectX requires way more CPU cycles than Mantle will.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42316333]the primary reason developers tend to use DirectX is because microsoft pushes for it constantly and aggressively. OpenGL would be just as functional (as if it isn't already, it's just different) as DX if it wasn't fucked over backwards[/QUOTE] Well part of it is because the SG•and later Khronos seems to be that they are trying to take it to too many directions at once without actually establishing a good off base. Their biggest boon was the mobile boon as well, without it they'd be in more trouble. That and the fact Khronos also has control of WebGL which allows them to crosspolinate a lot.
[QUOTE=RautaPalli;42316637]You really don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about. This was already perfectly explained: Mantle is not a magical tool that will split your game engine into parallel tasks that can be threaded properly. The amount of cores you have is irrelevant, you'd get a performance boost for games that run on a single thread also since telling the GPU what to do through DirectX requires way more CPU cycles than Mantle will.[/QUOTE] I wasn't claiming it was but the point is that he was complaining that 8 core CPUs and CPUs in general are completely unrelated and will not be affected by mantle at all, which you clearly understand to be untrue.
I welcome this - competition brings us good results.
On the subject of Battlefield and Frostbite it seems like every step forward is a step back. Destruction should be a gameplay element and not eye candy. I remember Haggard at one point saying in Bad Company 1, "If you don't have an entrance, create one." You couldn't do that as much with Battlefield 3 and it looks like you especially can't do that in Battlefield 4. The parts of the walls chipping and scripting shit falling around the map like a Michael Bay movie are sure to be shit. Making the map change half way through the game is good but I miss the way destructible buildings effected gameplay in BC and good gameplay is everything. Good gameplay makes a 10 monies game more enjoyable than a 50 monies one. imo the destruction in red faction: guerrilla wipes its ass with anything frostbite # has been able to achieve but i guess thats because it isnt multiplayer
[QUOTE=fork in brain;42317319]On the subject of Battlefield and Frostbite it seems like every step forward is a step back. Destruction should be a gameplay element and not eye candy. I remember Haggard at one point saying in Bad Company 1, "If you don't have an entrance, create one." You couldn't do that as much with Battlefield 3 and it looks like you especially can't do that in Battlefield 4. The parts of the walls chipping and scripting shit falling around the map like a Michael Bay movie are sure to be shit. Making the map change half way through the game is good but I miss the way destructible buildings effected gameplay in BC and good gameplay is everything. Good gameplay makes a 10 monies game more enjoyable than a 50 monies one. imo the destruction in red faction: guerrilla wipes its ass with anything frostbite # has been able to achieve but i guess thats because it isnt multiplayer[/QUOTE] Don't expect that level of destruction from a game that still has to come out on current-gen
[QUOTE=Pandamobile;42316390]Hey programmers, if you want a high paying job in the games industry, now's the time to start looking into this. If you can program in ASM or the upcoming Mantle API, you're going to be a very valuable employee.[/QUOTE] ya certainly you would be a very valuable employee for programming for a new irrelevant API that appears to be basically rewritten D3D11 with a driver hack
This could be pretty major, like OpenGL except better and actually widely adopted beyond mobile/unity/etc (the only reason why OpenGL has gained popularity recently) It would be perfect for SteamOS - DirectX sure as hell doesn't work under linux. AMD video cards are also traditionally cheaper. If they had an API that gave low-level console-like access to GPU's for games progreammed to actually take advantage for it, you'll be able to squeeze a lot of juice from less powerful systems. SteamOS is a logical choice to have mantle on it because its linux based, is console-like in functionality, will likely want to go with AMD thanks to cost-cutting, and SteamOS is open sourced as well. I'm excited to hear more. Looking forward for AMD getting back into the "ball game" again for PC gaming. They've been rather "eh" compared to Nvidia and Intel's offerings in the past couple of years. That push they've been waiting for, for proper multi-core support beyond dual/quad in games plus this low level API that gives PC games a level of performance efficency that consoles get will be hugely beneficial for them in this next generation.
[QUOTE=Aurora93;42317811]ya certainly you would be a very valuable employee for programming for a new irrelevant API that appears to be basically rewritten D3D11 with a driver hack[/QUOTE] I don't mean just Mantle, but low level programmers are in high demand.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42314236]I'm not so sure they will. I don't really anticipate them doing their own version of exactly what AMD is doing for fear of appearing to be behind AMD. and if they do, it'll probably have nothing to do with core utilization and if anything will only incorporate Intel CPUs.[/QUOTE] nvidia is one of the most competitive, sneaky companies around in the tech industry from what I gather. They are going to do their own thing, but they'll no doubt see this major threat and react in kind. They're top dogs right now, they are going to fight to keep that place. Brand loyalty is important today for companies, so if they can make their own version of this in whatever form to keep their older GPU cardholders happy and complacent until they get a new nvidia card, they will. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=KorJax;42318041]This could be pretty major, like OpenGL except better and actually widely adopted beyond mobile/unity/etc (the only reason why OpenGL has gained popularity recently) It would be perfect for SteamOS - DirectX sure as hell doesn't work under linux. AMD video cards are also traditionally cheaper. If they had an API that gave low-level console-like access to GPU's for games progreammed to actually take advantage for it, you'll be able to squeeze a lot of juice from less powerful systems. SteamOS is a logical choice to have mantle on it because its linux based, is console-like in functionality, will likely want to go with AMD thanks to cost-cutting, and SteamOS is open sourced as well. I'm excited to hear more. Looking forward for AMD getting back into the "ball game" again for PC gaming. They've been rather "eh" compared to Nvidia and Intel's offerings in the past couple of years. That push they've been waiting for, for proper multi-core support beyond dual/quad in games plus this low level API that gives PC games a level of performance efficency that consoles get will be hugely beneficial for them in this next generation.[/QUOTE] them creating competition is the most exciting part of all this. who cares what this technology actually does right now, just the fact that nvidia finally has to look over their shoulder is a great thing for all of us. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=alien_guy;42317664]Don't expect that level of destruction from a game that still has to come out on current-gen[/QUOTE] if they're lying out of their teeth about "levelution" the game's going to get destroyed for that. It's a huge main selling point. I don't think they'll let current gen cripple that.
[QUOTE=Daemon White;42311288]Not sure how Sony would... if they can implement it in the system through a patch / firmware / engine update then they're golden.[/QUOTE] IIRC a form of mantle is implemented in the 'custom' APU's they have
I've learned not to engage Bruhmis in tech talk, it's a waste of time and IQ.
[QUOTE=El Dilbert;42319040]IIRC a form of mantle is implemented in the 'custom' APU's they have[/QUOTE] Wouldn't really surprise me if it was.
[QUOTE=Delta616;42319068]I've learned not to engage Bruhmis in tech talk, it's a waste of time and IQ.[/QUOTE] are you going to report me again? no, this is my second offence, better notify authorities. pretty pathetic that you seriously felt the need to post that because I'm not a blind EA fanboy who thinks battlefield 3 is the revolutionary masterpiece DICE is convinced it is.
-snip I'm not even going to get into this-
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42319454]are you going to report me again? no, this is my second offence, better notify authorities. pretty pathetic that you seriously felt the need to post that because I'm not a blind EA fanboy who thinks battlefield 3 is the revolutionary masterpiece DICE is convinced it is.[/QUOTE] lol no one's even talking about that
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42319454]are you going to report me again? no, this is my second offence, better notify authorities. pretty pathetic that you seriously felt the need to post that because I'm not a blind EA fanboy who thinks battlefield 3 is the revolutionary masterpiece DICE is convinced it is.[/QUOTE] How many years have you been a programmer?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42319582]lol no one's even talking about that[/QUOTE] different thread, same concept. I said battlefield 3 is technically mediocre and he informed me that I have no idea what I'm talking about, reported me then instructed everyone else in the thread to ''report and move on''. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;42319657]How many years have you been a programmer?[/QUOTE] sorry, what the fuck does that question have to do with what you replied to, or anything I've said in this thread?
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42319820]different thread, same concept. I said battlefield 3 is technically mediocre and he informed me that I have no idea what I'm talking about, reported me then instructed everyone else in the thread to ''report and move on''. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] sorry, what the fuck does that question have to do with what you replied to, or anything I've said in this thread?[/QUOTE] Because you're arguing with programmers over something you obviously have absolutely no understanding of.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42319820]different thread, same concept. I said battlefield 3 is technically mediocre and he informed me that I have no idea what I'm talking about, reported me then instructed everyone else in the thread to ''report and move on''. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] sorry, what the fuck does that question have to do with what you replied to, or anything I've said in this thread?[/QUOTE] yeah but the way you talk and act you act like some beacon of objective knowledge when it comes to things so it's no surprise people who may, just possibly, maybe, on some random small chance that the universe let this happen, be more knowledgeable on a topic than you
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;42319820]different thread, same concept. I said battlefield 3 is technically mediocre and he informed me that I have no idea what I'm talking about, reported me then instructed everyone else in the thread to ''report and move on''. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] sorry, what the fuck does that question have to do with what you replied to, or anything I've said in this thread?[/QUOTE] well its because u dont
[QUOTE=geel9;42319881]Because you're arguing with programmers over something you obviously have absolutely no understanding of.[/QUOTE] the only thing I've argued is that making a radeon gpu exclusive feature that utilizes all 8 cores of a cpu is dumb. if that's not what they did then I don't care, but the promo lists it like it's a feature, it doesn't say ''these improvements to GPU performance will also allow for better utilization of cpu cores'' so it's just sneaky marketing apparently. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42319895]yeah but the way you talk and act you act like some beacon of objective knowledge when it comes to things so it's no surprise people who may, just possibly, maybe, on some random small chance that the universe let this happen, be more knowledgeable on a topic than you[/QUOTE] I didn't even debate with the people who were saying it's because of the API overhead. once again, the promo lists it as a feature of mantle, not bi-product of mantle's GPU improvements. if it is a feature, that's dumb. if it isn't, acting like it is is dumb. that's what I've said.
[QUOTE=fork in brain;42317319]On the subject of Battlefield and Frostbite it seems like every step forward is a step back. Destruction should be a gameplay element and not eye candy. I remember Haggard at one point saying in Bad Company 1, "If you don't have an entrance, create one." You couldn't do that as much with Battlefield 3 and it looks like you especially can't do that in Battlefield 4. The parts of the walls chipping and scripting shit falling around the map like a Michael Bay movie are sure to be shit. Making the map change half way through the game is good but I miss the way destructible buildings effected gameplay in BC and good gameplay is everything. Good gameplay makes a 10 monies game more enjoyable than a 50 monies one. imo the destruction in red faction: guerrilla wipes its ass with anything frostbite # has been able to achieve but i guess thats because it isnt multiplayer[/QUOTE] There's a fine balance between having full destruction and having a map where infantry is actually playable.
If Nvidia put out their own low level API, we could really see some huge performance gains, and PC gaming might get even more affordable. The competition would be fantastic for the industry as a whole.
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;42320823]If Nvidia put out their own low level API, we could really see some huge performance gains, and PC gaming might get even more affordable. The competition would be fantastic for the industry as a whole.[/QUOTE] This is the worst idea I have ever seen. Don't you know what the industry was like before OpenGL and DirectX became standards, and everyone had their own APIs?
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.