Mother and daughter arrested over incestuous marriage in Oklahoma - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Matthew0505;51026333]The genetics argument is a red herring, fucking your step family members is also abusive and gross even if it doesn't lead to deformed babies.[/QUOTE] Step family? So like, if a 30 year old man and a 30 year old woman never met before but their totally unrelated parents marry and then they decide to fuck, it's abuse? What if they're already fucking before the parents meet and get married, is that retroactively abuse? I'm so confused about the magic property that makes these things automatically abuse no matter what because we said so.

Oh, I see, if they're like kids being groomed for it before they can decide for themselves then yeah, it is fucked up.

So is anyone going to give some solid reasoning as to why consensual close-relative relationships without children should always be outlawed or no?

[QUOTE=RobL;51027836]So is anyone going to give some solid reasoning as to why consensual close-relative relationships without children should always be outlawed or no?[/QUOTE] I can't think of too many solid reasons against bestiality but that doesn't mean we should fuck dogs it's all about the implications man, it's just cut and dry fucked up

You can argue against incestuous relationships without resorting to emotional appeal like you're straight out of high school. Here's how you do it: [QUOTE=Sobotnik;51024298]incestuous relationships are extremely unhealthy and unstable in general for both parties, especially if children are produced of the union[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51025606] Yeah I actually spent the majority of my working life outdoors. What is that supposed to imply? If you people had anything but emotional outrage, you'd give it, but you don't, so you fucking can't. I need more than "UGH THIS IS GROSS AND ANGERS ME" to give a shit. I need logical rational reasons. I don't think incest is good, but if no ones hurt(not this case), it's consensual(Not this case) and there's no kids(this case) then I can't honestly understand the need to be utterly disgusted by it.[/QUOTE] Because majority of people that think of fucking their own moms are basement dwellers without any contact with any other womens whatsoever. Hence why I asked if you go outdoors. For real, go and seek help.

[QUOTE=cdr248;51027938]I can't think of too many solid reasons against bestiality but that doesn't mean we should fuck dogs [/QUOTE] Dogs can't consent.

[QUOTE=cdr248;51027938]I can't think of too many solid reasons against bestiality but that doesn't mean we should fuck dogs it's all about the implications man, it's just cut and dry fucked up[/QUOTE] the fundamental argument against beastiality is that animals can't give consent edit: nice im slow as heck

You know, anti gay marriage people have been saying for years that if gay marriage is legalized, incest and bestiality are next. I've always dismissed it as a slippery slope fallacy, but seeing people in this thread makes me think that they may have had a point.

[QUOTE=RobL;51028856]Dogs can't consent.[/QUOTE] So that means 50 year old guys can fuck 14 year old girls right? I mean the 14 year old COULD consent, but that doesn't make it fucking right.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51029091]So that means 50 year old guys can fuck 14 year old girls right? I mean the 14 year old COULD consent, but that doesn't make it fucking right.[/QUOTE] 14 year olds legally cannot consent.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51029185]14 year olds legally cannot consent.[/QUOTE] But they can fundamentally consent, they probably wouldn't give a fuck about the law anyways. It's wrong, that's the point.

[QUOTE=freaka;51028833]Because majority of people that think of fucking their own moms are basement dwellers without any contact with any other womens whatsoever. Hence why I asked if you go outdoors. For real, go and seek help.[/QUOTE] Thats exactly how i imagine these people too lmao. People are naturally not attracted to their siblings. Natures way of urging people to diversify and not inbreed. That attraction to ones sister isnt love, it a mental disorder

[QUOTE=freaka;51028833]Because majority of people that think of fucking their own moms are basement dwellers without any contact with any other womens whatsoever. Hence why I asked if you go outdoors. For real, go and seek help.[/QUOTE] I don't think he wants to fuck his mom or siblings. Saying "I don't care what two consenting adults do as long as nobody gets hurt (including potential children)," is not the same as saying "I condone this and dream about giving my mother a creampie." [editline]10th September 2016[/editline] That's an embarrassingly stupid leap you just made, honestly. That's like saying "If you don't care what gay people do, that must mean you're gay." Like, no? [editline]10th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Nautsabes;51029250]Thats exactly how i imagine these people too lmao. People are naturally not attracted to their siblings. Natures way of urging people to diversify and not inbreed. That attraction to ones sister isnt love, it a mental disorder[/QUOTE] This is what I want to know more about. My whole "defense" is predicated on the idea that it can cause no harm. If we can prove that it does cause harm or comes from harmful places 100% of the time, I'm 100% behind you. Because that's all I care about. People getting hurt. Past that I don't give a fuck what people do. I'm a little bit wary about these claims saying it's unnatural so therefore it's unhealthy. While I don't wish to compare this to the gay rights movement because I don't believe it to be the same thing here unlike other posters in this thread, it still strikes me that arguing it's unnatural sounds a lot like arguing homosexuality is unnatural because reproduction is the species' natural in-built way of ensuring survival. Again I'm not using this to argue that this stuff should be considered similar to the gay rights movement, I'm just saying it sounds like a similar fallacy and I would like to know more science about it being unhealthy before I condemn it fully. Especially in cases where we have family members separated their entire lives falling in love, which is the area I'm thinking about here. Before someone else accuses me of being a dirty motherfucker (literally), I'm just trying to have a good faith conversation about this to think it through.

[QUOTE=Fayez;51029086]You know, anti gay marriage people have been saying for years that if gay marriage is legalized, incest and bestiality are next. I've always dismissed it as a slippery slope fallacy, but seeing people in this thread makes me think that they may have had a point.[/QUOTE] How in the fuck do people against gay marriage saying that if its legalized, it will directly make people tolerate incest/bestiality more to the point of legalizing that? That isn't a point at all and makes zero sense.

So I've been thinking about this more. So the proposition is that incest is inherently abuse. I can buy that maybe in cases of being raised together, especially in this case. I wasn't there but from where I'm standing this article makes it seem like there was indeed abuse which is clearly wrong. Does this mean we should be sending abuse victims to prison?

[QUOTE=Fayez;51029086]You know, anti gay marriage people have been saying for years that if gay marriage is legalized, incest and bestiality are next. I've always dismissed it as a slippery slope fallacy, but seeing people in this thread makes me think that they may have had a point.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty ridiculous thing to bring up given the context of the case itself. This is more a case of abuse and coercion than it is a case of incest, despite that being what the mother is being charged of. The people defending incest in this thread really picked a horrible thread to defend their viewpoints in.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;51029574]That's a pretty ridiculous thing to bring up given the context of the case itself. This is more a case of abuse and coercion than it is a case of incest, despite that being what the mother is being charged of. The people defending incest in this thread really picked a horrible thread to defend their viewpoints in.[/QUOTE] I thought they were both being charged.

[QUOTE=freaka;51028833]Because majority of people that think of fucking their own moms are basement dwellers without any contact with any other womens whatsoever. Hence why I asked if you go outdoors. For real, go and seek help.[/QUOTE] How about you act like a fucking adult and read what I said No where did I condone it but you can't read far enough to bother can you

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51029250]Thats exactly how i imagine these people too lmao. People are naturally not attracted to their siblings. Natures way of urging people to diversify and not inbreed. That attraction to ones sister isnt love, it a mental disorder[/QUOTE] That's really only the case when the siblings are brought up together. There are many cases of siblings being separated at birth only to meet later in life and fall in love without knowing they're related until after the fact. Rarely upon finding out do they ever wish to end the relationship. I would not consider that particular scenario an act of nature.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;51029609]That's really only the case when the siblings are brought up together. There are many cases of siblings being separated at birth only to meet later in life and fall in love without knowing they're related until after the fact. Rarely upon finding out do they ever wish to end the relationship. I would not consider that particular scenario an act of nature.[/QUOTE] I think this has to do with the hypothesized Westermarck effect. [quote]When proximity during this critical period does not occur—for example, where a brother and sister are brought up separately, never meeting one another—they may find one another highly sexually attractive when they meet as adults or adolescents, according to the hypothesis of genetic sexual attraction. This supports the theory that the populations exhibiting the Westermarck effect became predominant because of the deleterious effects of inbreeding on those that didn't.[/quote] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect[/url] Please understand; if I'm """defending""" incest, I'm specifically invoking cases like these. I can't stress this enough so people don't get the wrong idea.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51029586]I thought they were both being charged.[/QUOTE] You're right, I misspoke. I don't know how I missed that. From what I gathered of the article it seems more likely that the mother is more at fault than the daughter. It seems as though she was coerced into the relationship, as alleged by her brother. [quote]“If that's what you want that's on you, but none of us kids want that, and now you got my sister behind bars because of your choices. Why don't you let that sit on you as a mum?”[/quote] [editline]10th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51029622]I think this has to do with the hypothesized Westermarck effect. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect[/url] Please understand; if I'm """defending""" incest, I'm specifically invoking cases like these. I can't stress this enough so people don't get the wrong idea.[/QUOTE] I understand. Your points have been some of the more reasonable ones in this thread. And yes that is more or less what I was talking about. I believe there was a recent case in Germany where this exact scenario played out, though I'm not sure what came of it. I would try to find the article but I have to go to work and don't feel like continuing this discussion any further. This really isn't really a thread to have such a debate, honestly.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;51029637]You're right, I misspoke. I don't know how I missed that. From what I gathered of the article it seems more likely that the mother is more at fault than the daughter. It seems as though she was coerced into the relationship, as alleged by her brother. [editline]10th September 2016[/editline] I understand. Your points have been some of the more reasonable ones in this thread. And yes that is more or less what I was talking about. I believe there was a recent case in Germany where this exact scenario played out, though I'm not sure what came of it. I would try to find the article but I have to go to work and don't feel like continuing this discussion any further. This really isn't really a thread to have such a debate, honestly.[/QUOTE] Yeah, fair enough, good point. I should drop it too.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51029091]So that means 50 year old guys can fuck 14 year old girls right? I mean the 14 year old COULD consent, but that doesn't make it fucking right.[/QUOTE] No. What's that got to do with anything?

[QUOTE=Nautsabes;51029250]Thats exactly how i imagine these people too lmao. People are naturally not attracted to their siblings. Natures way of urging people to diversify and not inbreed. That attraction to ones sister isnt love, it a mental disorder[/QUOTE] People said the exact same thing about homosexuality.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51029226]But they can fundamentally consent, they probably wouldn't give a fuck about the law anyways. It's wrong, that's the point.[/QUOTE] 14 year olds can't legally consent There's a big difference between legal consent and whatever your deluded mind has defined as fundamental consent

[QUOTE=wauterboi;51029765]People said the exact same thing about homosexuality.[/QUOTE] Gay sex doesn't result in mongoloid children [editline]10th September 2016[/editline] I'm sure homosexuals appreciate being equated with incestual relationships tho

[QUOTE=CQRPSE;51029873]Gay sex doesn't result in mongoloid children [editline]10th September 2016[/editline] I'm sure homosexuals appreciate being equated with incestual relationships tho[/QUOTE] As a pansexual I can tell you I don't really give a shit, and I don't think you should be addressing the feelings of all homosexuals like that. The fact that [I]you[/I] are disturbed by the thought doesn't mean anything for anyone but yourself, and the fact that [I]some[/I] homosexuals might be bothered by it means nothing more than just that - some people are bothered by it. That's all it has to be - no need to weaponize a group of people. And the fact that some people are bothered by it doesn't seem like a good enough reason to stop anything. Some people are bothered by interracial marriages. I've seen this first-hand. Some people are bothered by gay marriage. Some people are bothered by non-arranged marriage. Other people's sensitivity to what someone else is doing is stupid and shouldn't be integrated into our legal system. It's what people have been trying to tear down around the globe for a long time, and I don't think we need to work on pushing towards bringing that back again. We're either a free, tolerant nation or we're not. And in regards to producing malformed babies, what about people who have AIDS? If a man and a woman have AIDS and it can be passed down to the child, should the relationship itself be prohibited? Because that's what that specific argument against incest entails: if you could possibly produce a malformed baby, you shouldn't be allowed to be together romantically or sexually [I]at all[/I]. There's a number of ways for protection (condoms, birth control), there's backup plans (abortion), and there's the ultimate birth control of all: vasectomies. If an incestuous relationship isn't resulting in babies, I don't see why I should give a shit save for times of abuse. I don't think it's outright abuse for a brother to marry a sister, nor brother and cousin. I can see problems creating those conditions, but I don't think it's always abuse. And, for context, I know people who have treated homosexuality the same way: "Oh, homosexuality comes from daddy/mommy issues. Homosexuality comes from sexual trauma. Homosexuality comes from mental disorder." Speaking directly in the context of the article, forcing marriage is terrible, but not because it's incest. Forced marriages on all accounts is bullshit. I don't support that. If the story goes that a child just fell in love with their cousin - especially in cases of separated family members across the country - I don't see the problem. There can be a problem there, but let's not introduce problems where they don't exist. Saying there's always a problem with incest is a predetermined conclusion that will always mask the truth just like saying there's always a problem with homosexuality. It should be called what it is - a defense mechanism.

[QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51029091]So that means 50 year old guys can fuck 14 year old girls right? I mean the 14 year old COULD consent, but that doesn't make it fucking right.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=GhillieBacca;51029226]But they can fundamentally consent, they probably wouldn't give a fuck about the law anyways. It's wrong, that's the point.[/QUOTE] "it's wrong" isn't a very meaningful argument, 14 year olds don't possess the mental faculties to give consent which is why having sex with them is considered abuse, the same fundamental reason you're not allowed to bang animals

America has freedom, but what's freedom when you can't marry your own family amirite?