[QUOTE=Folstream;46917474]Not in Sweden they're not.
At least it's up for discussion at the moment.[/QUOTE]
Uh? If any swede that went to fight for ISIS came back I'm pretty sure SÄPO would get them pretty quick.
The whole issue lies with the travelling, for one, shitload of people goes to Turkey for reasons like businesses and leisure, so there's not only that Turkey can do to stop. Second, the border is huge as fuck, there's bound to be some roads to Syria which has no fence or guards watching. Turkey has to start doing something about its border, of course its going to be hard as fuck, but If they don't want shit to happen on their side, then they need to do something. And Turkey isn't giving a shit at the current point. Even if its fighting against IS in some ways, its not doing enough.
Turkey has really played the, "wait till its a problem for me." card the whole time.
I seriously don't understand how these people leave half-decent countries and their lives behind just to participate in this bullshit. It's like a terrible fad that people don't realize will be turned into ash eventually.
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46917464]Am I the only one who thinks this isn't a game of fucking cat and mouse? I don't mean to put you two in a spotlight, but I just can't help but react to these sort of extreme remarks, really
You are advocating violence, celebrating the death of two individuals,
i know this is just an internet forum, no one has to elaborate on their opinion but fuck, saying that you're glad they're dead is weird to me.[/QUOTE]
Yeah dude just like the legal system is a game of cat and mouse. We condemn thieves and kidnappers and what not and we fine and jail people. I mean it's the same thing! And what kind of asshole would be happy that a person (criminal) was locked in a cage (jail) and had his rights taken away? It's like being happy about a little girl being kidnapped and locked in someone's basement. Right? No. Just because something is technically identical (like killing a person) it doesn't mean that it's the same thing. The context and motivation matters. Consensual sex and rape are technically the same (penetration) but you don't think they are the same thing, do you?
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46917464]instead of seeking out whatever underlying issues are causing people to commit acts of terrorism, violence, etc[/QUOTE]
We already know what that is. Their religion! Specifically a fraction of Islam. What else do you want? Why do they follow that fraction of Islam? Pressure by other people to go to IS and see for yourself what's happening with your people where you get brainwashed or indoctrination from a child or it's a convert or get beheaded choice.
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46917464]Some/most terrorists are born out of countries and communities in extreme conflicts, these are women, men and children who are frustrated with their living conditions and seek answers for their dismay - ISIS are one of the organizations who take advantage of these probably confused people to brainwash them and join their cause in fighting "evil", etc[/QUOTE]
They don't go to ISIS for answers because they are troubled and need a deeper sense in a life of misery. If they don't convert they are beheaded.
You are acting like it's a global problem and all highly developed countries' fault and responsibility that these people are poor which in turn causes them to go to ISIS. Threat of beheading works regardless of how expensive your home or car are.
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46917464]I am just tired and very often surprised how people generally gets stuck at square 1 with blaming other people and wishing death upon everyone affiliated[/QUOTE]
What am I supposed to be sorry when a person who's life's goal is to kill innocent people because his imaginary god commanded him to do so dies? Fuck that shit. If all of them dropped dead this minute I wouldn't feel bad at all. Actually the world would be a better place without them.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;46929950]Yeah dude just like the legal system is a game of cat and mouse. We condemn thieves and kidnappers and what not and we fine and jail people. I mean it's the same thing! And what kind of asshole would be happy that a person (criminal) was locked in a cage (jail) and had his rights taken away? It's like being happy about a little girl being kidnapped and locked in someone's basement. Right? No. Just because something is technically identical (like killing a person) it doesn't mean that it's the same thing. The context and motivation matters. Consensual sex and rape are technically the same (penetration) but you don't think they are the same thing, do you?[/quote]
Of course the context and motivation matters, there's different laws and sentences for different degrees of the crime. What I am questioning is the childlike way of thinking that every terrorist does it for the same reason and that "the only good terrorist is a dead one" mentality. You don't eradicate terrorism by killing every single terrorist. What ISIS are doing is not excusable in any way whatsoever but whenever we reduce them to mere evil objects that should be killed, how the hell are we moving towards a real solution?
Overall I worded everything a bit wrong, really. With the game of cat-and-mouse it only has one goal - to catch and kill the mouse but then ignoring whatever reason the mouse left it's hole in the wall. I feel it sort of describes the the kind of mentality most people have very easy to adopt; an "us versus them" way of thinking which I think is very limiting and a narrow way of thinking.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;46929950]We already know what that is. Their religion! Specifically a fraction of Islam. What else do you want? Why do they follow that fraction of Islam? Pressure by other people to go to IS and see for yourself what's happening with your people where you get brainwashed or indoctrination from a child or it's a convert or get beheaded choice.[/quote]
Exactly, so Islam is NOT the underlying reason is it? Most of the time I don't feel that it is, it's probably more like an enabler, a book of holy scriptures that you may interpret to your liking to legitimatize your actions. It does speak about violence but it also speaks about peace, like many other religions.
I just don't believe that someone simply commits the act of murdering thousands of people and terrorizing large communities, [I]solely[/I] because a book "told" them to. That's my point.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;46929950]They don't go to ISIS for answers because they are troubled and need a deeper sense in a life of misery. If they don't convert they are beheaded.
You are acting like it's a global problem and all highly developed countries' fault and responsibility that these people are poor which in turn causes them to go to ISIS. Threat of beheading works regardless of how expensive your home or car are.[/quote]
You're right, a lot of them are forced into terrorists organizations for different reasons and I did generalize. But I was trying to illustrate a point that you're not simply not born as a terrorist, that we don't live in a good vs evil world where terrorists are the "evil" guys and we're the "good" ones - that's a completely naive way of thinking, but it's very easy to have a mindset like that. Especially when we have to distance ourselves from large parts of the world.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;46929950]What am I supposed to be sorry when a person who's life's goal is to kill innocent people because his imaginary god commanded him to do so dies? Fuck that shit. If all of them dropped dead this minute I wouldn't feel bad at all. Actually the world would be a better place without them.[/QUOTE]
I am not asking you to feel sorry for anyone, you can feel whatever the fuck you want, feel free to feel rage and spout aggression towards anyone, all I am asking for is a [I]sense [/I]of empathy and understanding. It's a grey world and things simply don't happen because of ONE single reason. I just feel that many forget there is a long history beneath each conflict and I mean that celebrating the death of these terrorists is not helping anyone by saying that they did it ONLY and I mean SOLELY because of their religion. But whatever really, this is an internet forum, not a podium where you have to explain yourself. you're allowed to say simple things and think simple thoughts, but they are part of a big discussion and will undoubtedly influence others to think like that.
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46931040]Of course the context and motivation matters, there's different laws and sentences for different degrees of the crime. What I am questioning is the childlike way of thinking that every terrorist does it for the same reason and that "the only good terrorist is a dead one" mentality. You don't eradicate terrorism by killing every single terrorist. What ISIS are doing is not excusable in any way whatsoever but whenever we reduce them to mere evil objects that should be killed, how the hell are we moving towards a real solution?
Overall I worded everything a bit wrong, really. With the game of cat-and-mouse it only has one goal - to catch and kill the mouse but then ignoring whatever reason the mouse left it's hole in the wall. I feel it sort of describes the the kind of mentality most people have very easy to adopt; an "us versus them" way of thinking which I think is very limiting and a narrow way of thinking.
Exactly, so Islam is NOT the underlying reason is it? Most of the time I don't feel that it is, it's probably more like an enabler, a book of holy scriptures that you may interpret to your liking to legitimatize your actions. It does speak about violence but it also speaks about peace, like many other religions.
I just don't believe that someone simply commits the act of murdering thousands of people and terrorizing large communities, [I]solely[/I] because a book "told" them to. That's my point.
You're right, a lot of them are forced into terrorists organizations for different reasons and I did generalize. But I was trying to illustrate a point that you're not simply not born as a terrorist, that we don't live in a good vs evil world where terrorists are the "evil" guys and we're the "good" ones - that's a completely naive way of thinking, but it's very easy to have a mindset like that. Especially when we have to distance ourselves from large parts of the world.[/QUOTE]
What's a real solution according to in reference to ISIS? Yeah they are not born a terrorist. They are made to be terrorists from a young age. You cannot reason with them after a certain point.
And yeah it's not like they read their book and decide to go murder people. They get it from other (older or more involved) members of their group. It's a crowd mentality. Self perpetuating circle made around that fraction of Islam. So while Islam itself is not the problem, these people ARE the problem. Either you join them or they kill you and they teach their children to be like that too. And they want to invade other countries and make everyone follow their ways. How is that not evil? It is us vs them and good vs evil situation. Regular people just want to live their lives the way they want. Evil people want to hurt other people, that includes making others live their lives the way the evil people decided to be the "correct" way. The purpose of their lives is to impose their ways on other people and if they refuse kill them. That's evil right there.
What other solution other than extermination do you see to break that self perpetuating circle? I can't see any. But if there is a better solution I want to hear about it.
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46931040]I am not asking you to feel sorry for anyone, you can feel whatever the fuck you want, feel free to feel rage and spout aggression towards anyone, all I am asking for is a [I]sense [/I]of empathy and understanding. It's a grey world and things simply don't happen because of ONE single reason. I just feel that many forget there is a long history beneath each conflict and I mean that celebrating the death of these terrorists is not helping anyone by saying that they did it ONLY and I mean SOLELY because of their religion. But whatever really, this is an internet forum, not a podium where you have to explain yourself. you're allowed to say simple things and think simple thoughts, but they are part of a big discussion and will undoubtedly influence others to think like that.[/QUOTE]
Oh I can understand dying for a cause you believe in. I can even understand the twisted logic behind killing non-combatants. But the people doing it are sure as hell is not getting any of my empathy. And if the world is gray, they are in the darkest area. And while "their religion", as in Islam, is not the cause, "their religion" as in the fraction of Islam they believe in, as in what they hear from their preachers, and the fact that they act according to it including converting other people and indoctrinating children IS the cause why they commit terrorist acts. It's their common purpose in life, to live according to the teachings. They are zealots breeding zealots and sending them to fight. There is no outside reason. They are the source of the problem. You can't fix some other fundamental problem and expect ISIS do disappear as a result. It's not like with poverty and crime in some town in a highly developed country.
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