Otto Carius has died - Polidicks

[QUOTE=The Haski;47002655]You once again moved from focusing on Otto to a nation scale attempting to push some duality of Good v. Evil.[/QUOTE] Because he was responding explicitly to the point that "there is no difference between people like Otto and Allied Soldiers". Presuming you are referring to the Wehrmacht when you reference "people like Otto", it's objectively false that there is no difference between the two. While an individual soldier on both sides would have served their country in a military capacity as well as they could have, there is a very real difference between Wehrmacht soldiers and say, US Army soldiers. Namely the fact that Wehrmacht soldiers fought for Germany, who was responsible for the war in the first place by invading and subjugating sovereign nations, typically with horrifying results. While the Army (and the US military, and the allies) did their fair share of terrible shit during the war, they aren't really comparable to the Wehrmacht, or the German military as a whole. Frankly if anyone is trying to push a duality viewpoint it's you, only substituting good vs evil with some vague Neutral vs Neutral, when this is just historically, observably false. We know enough about Otto Carius himself to know that he wasn't a Nazi and can't be held responsible for a lot of the shit the Third Reich involved himself in, but he was still a soldier that fought for them, killed for them, and secured land for them. Frankly I choose to remember Otto Carius as somewhat of a genius of armored warfare, a gifted officer (both tactically and morally), and a patriot, someone who fought a Germany beyond the Nazi zeal held by some Wehrmacht and SS officers. All these things are commendable. But I'm not going to whitewash the fact that he fought for one of the most brutal regimes in the history of the world.

This saddens me deeply, he was a great guy. :(

You guys do realize just because he wasn't a villain does not make him a hero. I don't see how killing anyone on the battlefield for your nation is a "heroic" act. Serving your nation in a war is honorable, yes, but not heroic. I wouldn't call Ally soldiers who killed lots of Nazis heroes either, they were just men fighting in a war. The term "hero" should be reserved for the kind of people who jump on grenades to save other people or those who refused to execute POWs. It's a sad reality.

Tigers in the Mud was a great read

Meanwhile in germany, not one article in the newspapers or online magazines because it would be considered nazi propaganda... It was the same when Bubi died.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;47003580]Meanwhile in germany, not one article in the newspapers or online magazines because it would be considered nazi propaganda... It was the same when Bubi died.[/QUOTE] Holy shit, seriously I couldn't find a single article

What astounds me is that to accomplish that he had to be fighting...a lot. In a war where German forces were getting destroyed on the west and east front, to come out of that alive when you are that much in the fight is incredible. As successful as he was he must have been targeted and yet they didn't get him. Sometimes people have trouble with the distinction between what a person does, and what their side stands for, so I can understand why Germany might not want to make a big deal over this guy. Here in the US some people idolize Civil War leaders for their stance on thing like slavery, which makes it hard to talk about their skills as military leaders since you might get mistaken for a racist.

[QUOTE=matt000024;47003422]You guys do realize just because he wasn't a villain does not make him a hero. I don't see how killing anyone on the battlefield for your nation is a "heroic" act. Serving your nation in a war is honorable, yes, but not heroic. I wouldn't call Ally soldiers who killed lots of Nazis heroes either, they were just men fighting in a war. The term "hero" should be reserved for the kind of people who jump on grenades to save other people or those who refused to execute POWs. It's a sad reality.[/QUOTE] Gotta admit I agree with this actually, Im sure that the men that are hailed as heroes do not like the idea of being heroes either with their friends being killed doing the exact same job as them. Many people I have spoke to who took part in the war have always said the same thing, "Im not a hero for what I done, I done the same job as the rest of the people that partook in the entire war." etc

[QUOTE=C0MMUNIZT;47002133]Because the crews inside the axis tanks were not human too right?[/QUOTE] They sure where human when they rushed into Poland running over and killing people.

[QUOTE=coldroll5;47004625]They sure where human when they rushed into Poland running over and killing people.[/QUOTE] Because every german soldier went into poland with the idea to shoot as many polish people as they could? How many hollywood war films have you seen

[QUOTE=coldroll5;47004625]They sure where human when they rushed into Poland running over and killing people.[/QUOTE] So basically any soldier who's involved in an invasion/war instantly turns non-human?

You guys that believe that every german was a nazi should go and read up a little on rommel.

rest in peace

didn't he run a pharmacy for like half a century

it's funny how fp rushes to apologize for the wehrmacht while at the same time demonizing the red army as rapists and murderers not all germans were nazis, but that doesn't mean that all non-nazis are saints i hope you lot actually realize this and stop seeing the wehrmacht in this pink retarded light of just a bunch of heroic stiff upper lip people who "just" defended their homeland.

It should also be noted that this guy's tank shot down a plane with the MAIN CANNON. The entire crew is worthy of praise.

[QUOTE=The Haski;47002655]You once again moved from focusing on Otto to a nation scale attempting to push some duality of Good v. Evil. Let's look at the facts: Was Carius a member of the the Nazi Party? Nope. Did he join the war with the intention of pushing their Ideology? Nope, he was DRAFTED. Did he personally kill Jews in the holocaust? Nope. Did he even play any role in it? Nope. It's incredible naive to just draw up sides between the Allies and the Axis where everyone on the opposing force was bad since "Nazis we're bad!". We're all aware of the horrendous crimes committed by the SS in the Second World War, but this isn't about them or an army it's about recognising the accomplishments of individual regardless of what side he was on. Saying Otto is bad because of the Holocaust would be like saying we can't appreciate Audie Murphy, etc ,etc because of the war crimes the Allies committed i.e. Dresden, Hiroshima.[/QUOTE] That's an important distinction, I think, the separation of the Holocaust and World War II. The Holocaust wasn't even a driving factor for American action in the war until much later, after it was already flaring over Russian territorial aggression (and German aggression, particularly in the acquisition of buffer states between the USSR and Germany). Were the Nazis bad? Absolutely. You can't forgive the people that orchestrate the mass slaughter of an entire ethnicity on the grounds of racial purity. But not everyone in the German army was a Nazi; not even everyone involved in the holocaust was a Nazi, a significant percentage were conscripted soldiers that had no choice of post. A lot of these people were fighting because they didn't have a choice. It's the same with us, the same with the Red Army, the British, the Japanese, with everyone. There were no saints in World War II, only sinners of varying degrees.

[QUOTE=Melnek;47005006]it's funny how fp rushes to apologize for the wehrmacht while at the same time demonizing the red army as rapists and murderers not all germans were nazis, but that doesn't mean that all non-nazis are saints i hope you lot actually realize this and stop seeing the wehrmacht in this pink retarded light of just a bunch of heroic stiff upper lip people who "just" defended their homeland.[/QUOTE] There are legends of the Red Army that deserve to be remembered too. I could say they were fighting for an evil regime and don't deserve to be remembered any more than any member of the Wehrmacht because they occupied Europe for half a century and forced it's inhabitants to live a miserable existence. But I don't, because they do deserve to be remembered, just as members of the Wehrmacht do, just as anyone who fights and upholds the rules of war do.

[QUOTE=beatriz;47002472]Most german soldiers didn't care for nazi ideology, especially carius. They fought for their country. They're fighting for those who can't protect themselves, what the country has given them, what the country once was. If I were in Iraq fighting, I would fight for my country and my brothers, not for religion or political ideals. you all should read his book, Tigers in the Mud, it's a fucking fantastic autobiography.[/QUOTE] [url]http://mangafox.me/manga/otto_carius_doromamire_no_tora/[/url] Or if you're a weeb read his manga.

[QUOTE=coldroll5;47004625]They sure where human when they rushed into Poland running over and killing people.[/QUOTE] Go read a history book. The third Reich declared war on poland because of a false flag attack initiated by the leadership to get the citizens into the mood for war to defend their country. You never heard of the term "Um 5:45 Uhr wird zurückgeschossen", right? So for you the war on terror consisted also of non human monsters who just rush into Iraq to run over and kill people.

Well he's not resting in peace. What's with everyone suddenly being all humanitarian and saying it's not his fault he was part of the German army, when if it was anyone else there would be shit right now.

I know that United States entertainment media(movies, video games) like to portray the German soldiers of WW2 as faceless foot soldiers of the Nazi party and henchmen of Hitler himself, because "Good vs. Evil" narratives are easier to understand, but I honestly thought that people were able to look past that. I'm not entirely sure that those who believe that every last single one of the German soldiers were "evil" and committed atrocities understand what mass conscription was like in Nazi Germany in the 1940'ies. If you got handed a conscription notice to go for basic training, you had three options: 1. Join up and fight to defend your homeland. Especially in 1943 and onward, Germany was under pressure from all sides. 2. Flee and perhaps never see your family and friends ever again, especially if Germany managed to defend itself. 3. Face the first available firing squad for failing to defend your homeland and people and being deemed a "coward". It's not like any of these options are easy choices. People are likely to the thing that's most socially acceptable at the time, and you don't know how life in the front line is until you are there and fighting for your life. Front line troops did not fully know about rear echelon extermination squads and concentration camps, as the were entirely focused on the fighting. Hitler was smart enough to know that he only could use people of certain mindset for directing such tasks, and therefore regular soldiers with lesser commitment to the cause were more often than not used for guard duties and transportation of materiel in the rear areas of the Eastern Front.

I've got a friend who's going to Germany next year and was planning on visiting his pharmacy. A shame.

[QUOTE=Levelog;47006302]I've got a friend who's going to Germany next year and was planning on visiting his pharmacy. A shame.[/QUOTE] Well, the Pharmacy will probably still be there.

You know we talk a lot about the German war crimes but no one seems to question the massive firebombing campaigns the allies did over civilian targets. [editline]25th January 2015[/editline] Before anyone takes that out of context, would you call allied bomber crews subhumans because they killed civilians with their bombs?

[QUOTE=Melnek;47005006]it's funny how fp rushes to apologize for the wehrmacht while at the same time demonizing the red army as rapists and murderers not all germans were nazis, but that doesn't mean that all non-nazis are saints i hope you lot actually realize this and stop seeing the wehrmacht in this pink retarded light of just a bunch of heroic stiff upper lip people who "just" defended their homeland.[/QUOTE] It's also funny how people like rush to throw mass generalizations over the entirety of Germany and assume everyone was just as evil as someone toting a swastika. [editline]27th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Kyle902;47011700]You know we talk a lot about the German war crimes but no one seems to question the massive firebombing campaigns the allies did over civilian targets. [editline]25th January 2015[/editline] Before anyone takes that out of context, would you call allied bomber crews subhumans because they killed civilians with their bombs?[/QUOTE] Allied firebombings are pretty frequently damned. It's plain as day that many of the US and British bombings were complete terrorism, it's not really a grey area at all.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;47005091]It should also be noted that this guy's tank shot down a plane with the MAIN CANNON. The entire crew is worthy of praise.[/QUOTE] Yeah and I've done that like over a dozen times in Battlefield. Big whoop. :downs: