France’s Prime Minister backs burkini swimsuit ban, saying they are based on “enslavement of women" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=da space core;50902385]I love how you guys fight for the rights of women by assuming that women are incapable of believing and following their own religion/culture[/QUOTE] Most of the time they don't really have a choice

[QUOTE=phygon;50902445]A ban that would be absolutely impossible to enforce. The folks that are forcing their family members to wear them would just say "hey say that you're wearing this willingly or I'll beat you"[/QUOTE] This is like saying that banning child abuse isn't effective because the abusive mother/father could just say "Don't tell the police that I beat you 5 times a day or else I'll beat you even more", so we should just ban people from having children instead.

[QUOTE=Perrine;50902454]Most of the time they don't really have a choice[/QUOTE] Those poor Muslim women not being able to make decisions for themselves, us superior westerners must make the decisions for them since they are obviously brainwashed.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50902453]It's almost as if you're allergic to the idea that they internalize concepts that oppress them, particularly since you are born into identities, you don't pick and choose. We can only really do that with the bible, and that's because Christianity has been neutered by liberalism and modernity, unlike islam. You're not going to get around this, if your argument boils down to 'all authoritarianism is the same you're just as bad as them' you're not being liberal, sorry. You're just a contrarian. This is 'if you kill them, they win'-tier bullshit that contradicts the actual opinions of liberals in history confronted with threats to liberty from right and left.[/QUOTE] What? How is not revoking a free choice unliberal? Please explain in more detail since i have zero clue in what you mean

[QUOTE=Conscript;50902453]It's almost as if you're allergic to the idea that they internalize concepts that oppress them, particularly since you are born into identities, you don't pick and choose. We can only really do that with the bible, and that's because Christianity has been neutered by liberalism and modernity, unlike islam. You're not going to get around this, if your argument boils down to 'all authoritarianism is the same you're just as bad as them' you're not being liberal, sorry. You're just a contrarian. This is 'if you kill them, they win'-tier bullshit that contradicts the actual opinions of liberals in history confronted with threats to liberty from right and left.[/QUOTE] Holy shit, have you ever met or even talked to a Muslim woman before?

I really don't think this is as big of an issue as some are making it out to be. France has a right to preserve their heritage. Burkini is a product of oppression. In a country based on liberty, more so than any other country in the world, having to suffer attacks that stem from the same ideology that promotes the wearing of clothing similar to the burkini, it's completely within their right. You all seem to forget that France is at war. Not officially with another state, but with an ideology. This ideology killing people all over the world, and whether or not the Niqab or or burkini are directly related to radical islam doesn't matter. This shit doesn't represent liberty, something France stands for without compromise.

[QUOTE=Perrine;50902454]Most of the time they don't really have a choice[/QUOTE] Im sure there are situations where the husband does force something on the wife. The proper solution is to do something about that particular problem. This ban hits a lot of people who did no wrong and disencourages integration. Its the wrong solution to the problem [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902477]I really don't think this is as big of an issue as some are making it out to be. France has a right to preserve their heritage. Burkini is a product of oppression. In a country based on liberty, more so than any other country in the world, having to suffer attacks that stem from the same ideology that promotes the wearing of clothing similar to the burkini, it's completely within their right. You all seem to forget that France is at war. Not officially with another state, but with an ideology. This ideology killing people all over the world, and whether or not the Niqab or or burkini are directly related to radical islam doesn't matter. This shit doesn't represent liberty, something France stands for without compromise.[/QUOTE] Do you not understand that controlling what you may wear is oppressive in itself? You cannot call yourself as one of liberty when you revoke rights like this

[QUOTE=Fayez;50902472]Those poor Muslim women not being able to make decisions for themselves, us superior westerners must make the decisions for them since they are obviously brainwashed.[/QUOTE] This is a strawman good job I'm not saying that muslim women are brainwashed or anything. I'm saying that outside forces (family, spouses) prevent them from expressing themselves how they want to because their culture is so strict. Basically, imagine if a muslim woman in Saudi Arabia went to her family and said "I don't want to be a muslim anymore"

[QUOTE=da space core;50902485] Do you not understand that controlling what you may wear is oppressive in itself? You cannot call yourself as one of liberty when you revoke rights like this[/QUOTE] I completely understand that. What you need to understand is that France is at war with an ideology. There have been multiple attacks and an invasion of people with this ideology. This is about france taking their country back, not about what your notion of liberalism is. This is much bigger than the concepts you lot are throwing around. It's about maintaining a countries identity.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902515]I completely understand that. What you need to understand is that France is at war with an ideology. There have been multiple attacks and an invasion of people with this ideology. This is about france taking their country back, not about what your notion of liberalism is. This is much bigger than the concepts you lot are throwing around. It's about maintaining a countries identity.[/QUOTE] And legislating against them will make them more sure they're right and France is wrong Good job you just made it worse

[QUOTE=Perrine;50902505]This is a strawman good job I'm not saying that muslim women are brainwashed or anything. I'm saying that outside forces (family, spouses) prevent them from expressing themselves how they want to because their culture is so strict. [/QUOTE] So how is this any different than when a Muslim man forces his wife to wear the hijab? What if a woman wants to express herself by wearing a burkini? [QUOTE]Basically, imagine if a muslim woman in Saudi Arabia went to her family and said "I don't want to be a muslim anymore"[/QUOTE] Breaking news, theocracies aren't fun places to live in.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902515]I completely understand that. What you need to understand is that France is at war with an ideology. There have been multiple attacks and an invasion of people with this ideology. This is about france taking their country back, not about what your notion of liberalism is. This is much bigger than the concepts you lot are throwing around. It's about maintaining a countries identity.[/QUOTE] Yes, maintaining your identity by being oppressive. That will TOTALLY work out and give them a great rep!

[QUOTE=Fayez;50902536]So how is this any different than when a Muslim man forces his wife to wear the hijab? What if a woman wants to express herself by wearing a burkini? Breaking news, theocracies aren't fun places to live in.[/QUOTE] It's not, I'm not arguing against a woman wanting to wear whatever she wants, and no they're not

[QUOTE=Perrine;50902546]It's not, I'm not arguing against a woman wanting to wear whatever she wants, and no they're not[/QUOTE] Yeah you are. You're banning something they may choose to wear. Now they will not go to the beach at all. You just shot any chance of integration down.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902515]I completely understand that. What you need to understand is that France is at war with an ideology. There have been multiple attacks and an invasion of people with this ideology. This is about france taking their country back, not about what your notion of liberalism is. This is much bigger than the concepts you lot are throwing around. It's about maintaining a countries identity.[/QUOTE] A state shouldn't be enforcing cultural values. If the country's identity is changing then let it be.

Like I said in the other thread, regardless of whether or not a woman is being forced to wear restrictive clothing, banning it outright is not the solution to the issue of oppression. It's just adding further oppression onto the previous oppression. Solves nothing. Now women who, whether or not they are forced to cover up, were able to go to the beach in their burkini, can't go to the beach at all. They lose either way. You can't try to stand up for someone's rights by taking away more of their rights. Doesn't make sense.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50902552]Yeah you are. You're banning something they may choose to wear. Now they will not go to the beach at all. You just shot any chance of integration down.[/QUOTE] Where did I say I support banning burkinis? Point to me where. Because I don't.

Sorry, didn't read well.

Liberal values aren't "you do what we do or not at all." Though listening to you guys. One would never know that. I respect the free will of others to make choices I don't agree with.

Heres the thing guys, this ideology in itself does not have a place in modern society. You guys are acting like it does. You guys are making it worse. You guys are the problem, you're letting it happen. Everybody like you who thinks "let them do what they want!!" are the same ones that are going to get fucking steam rolled by terrorists who YOU let walk all over your liberty using the very logic that protected them against you. Whatever you may think about me, I'm actually pretty liberal myself. But im more anti-oppression than pro choice. Especially when pro choice IS oppression.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902571]Heres the thing guys, this ideology in itself does not have a place in modern society. You guys are acting like it does. You guys are making it worse. You guys are the problem, you're letting it happen. Everybody like you who thinks "let them do what they want!!" are the same ones that are going to get fucking steam rolled by terrorists who YOU let walk all over your liberty using the very logic that protected them against you. Whatever you may think about me, I'm actually pretty liberal myself. But im more anti-oppression than pro choice. Especially when pro choice IS oppression.[/QUOTE] So in order to get them to see like you do, you're going to legislate them to feel discriminated against and thus more entrenched in their views?

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50902275]...And if they aren't being forced to wear them? What if they still want to wear them?[/QUOTE] well see thats the sneaky way religion works, because it forces things without being forceful for the believer. a muslim woman would never say shes "forced" to wear a burka because its something she has to do in the name of the islam and therefore is not forced, its merely a part of the religious life style.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50902575]So in order to get them to see like you do, you're going to legislate them to feel discriminated against and thus more entrenched in their views?[/QUOTE] The alternative is to let them have it and.... become more entrenched in their views. Whats your point? At least in one case they legally can't.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902571]Heres the thing guys, this ideology in itself does not have a place in modern society. You guys are acting like it does. You guys are making it worse. You guys are the problem, you're letting it happen. Everybody like you who thinks "let them do what they want!!" are the same ones that are going to get fucking steam rolled by terrorists who YOU let walk all over your liberty using the very logic that protected them against you. Whatever you may think about me, I'm actually pretty liberal myself. But im more anti-oppression than pro choice. Especially when pro choice IS oppression.[/QUOTE] Clothing doesn't cause terrorism lmao

It's not like this law is going to liberate the hypothetically oppressed Muslim women living in France. Now it just means they can't go to the beach anymore.

So in order to go against an oppressive ideology you need to oppress women by not allowing them to wear what they want. Brilliant.

[QUOTE=Perrine;50902505]This is a strawman good job I'm not saying that muslim women are brainwashed or anything. I'm saying that outside forces (family, spouses) prevent them from expressing themselves how they want to because their culture is so strict.[/QUOTE] This happens in pretty much every conservative culture, but yeah its an actual problem. However, you cannot fight an oppressive culture with oppressive laws. Think of it this way, the burkini allowed conservative muslim women to go to the beach and see and interact the more relaxed western culture, thus promoting integration. Banning them from the beach helps no one

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902477]This shit doesn't represent liberty, something France stands for without compromise.[/QUOTE] The French state doesn't stand for personal liberty at all, if it's policing your wardrobe or interfering in your personal choices (that affect no one else). That's the equivalent of me defending a clearly undemocratic decision by the greek government because "Greece is the cradle of democracy!". You can't appeal to history, willy-nilly. If anything, it's one more argument for protecting personal liberty or democracy in either scenario. It doesn't matter either way, either the legislation is morally correct or it isn't, regardless of whether it goes against a country's values or whatever. You can criticize French values just as much as you can criticize islamic values.

[QUOTE=Kljunas;50902596]Clothing doesn't cause terrorism lmao[/QUOTE] Dude, thats such a simple minded way of negotiating the implications of my post. I don't even know if i should respond to this seriously. That's how preposterous your over simplification is. Do you really think the government is banning it because "I don't like the way it looks". Obviously its because of fucking terrorism, smh. [QUOTE=phaedon;50902625]The French state doesn't stand for personal liberty at all, if it's policing your wardrobe or interfering in your personal choices (that affect no one else). That's the equivalent of me defending a clearly undemocratic decision by the greek government because "Greece is the cradle of democracy!". You can't appeal to history, willy-nilly. If anything, it's one more argument for protecting personal liberty or democracy in either scenario.[/QUOTE] This is a good point. Do you believe that some personal liberties are worth losing to protect democracy? Assuming democracy is your ideal.

[QUOTE=phaedon;50902288]Pretty sure it will be effective in banning burkinis, they are hardly inconspicuous. Whether it's effective in grabbing more votes remains to be seen.[/QUOTE] effective in terms of actually enforcing the spirit of the law. it'll probably stop burkinis but that's not gonna change any of the reasons why women wear them, so what's the point?