France’s Prime Minister backs burkini swimsuit ban, saying they are based on “enslavement of women" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=J!NX;50902266]lets be fair, if you're still forced to cover most of your body you're still not dressing how you want[/QUOTE] And how does banning the burkini help with that?

[QUOTE=The golden;50902639]You are massively over-simplifying the issue. The burqa and this stupid swimsuit thing were created with the purpose of oppressing women. You cannot deny this as that is what they are made and used for in many places around the globe. It is not a symbol of freedom or liberty it's a symbol of oppression and control - It goes against the values of the French people and thus it is banned. Please think about it more than just "she wants to wear it so she should be able to". It's not as simple as that. (this is totally ignoring the fact that some people probably aren't even wearing them by choice as oppressive traditions are enforced within some Muslim families even when in another country.)[/QUOTE] But how does banning them help these women though It just makes sure that they can't go to the beach in those outfits now it doesn't help them at all...

[QUOTE=RobL;50902647]And how does banning the burkini help with that?[/QUOTE] By removing the acceptance of an outdated prehistory barbaric tradition?

[QUOTE=Pascall;50902557]Like I said in the other thread, regardless of whether or not a woman is being forced to wear restrictive clothing, banning it outright is not the solution to the issue of oppression. It's just adding further oppression onto the previous oppression. Solves nothing. Now women who, whether or not they are forced to cover up, were able to go to the beach in their burkini, can't go to the beach at all. They lose either way. You can't try to stand up for someone's rights by taking away more of their rights. Doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE] "people are telling women what to wear!" "how can we put a stop to this?" "by telling them what to wear of course" gj

I don't understand what's the problem. I understand the problem with burqas obscuring someone's face which can be problematic but a burqini doesn't do that at all. Who is it bothering?

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902586]The alternative is to let them have it and.... become more entrenched in their views. Whats your point? At least in one case they legally can't.[/QUOTE] No. The alternative is to let standards change over time. You want dramatic change NOW, you can't wait, you won't wait, and to get your change, you'll demean, damn, and disturb the people you're trying to get to assimilate. We live in Canada. We have a [B]fuck ton[/B] of muslims. We do not legislate against them. We don't discriminate. Guess what? [B]we have the least problems with that portion of our community of any first world nation.[/B] France discriminates against Muslims and has done so for years. This is a continuation of that. This will only push them further away.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902657]By removing the acceptance of an outdated prehistory barbaric tradition?[/QUOTE] And how does banning the burkini help with that?

[QUOTE=The golden;50902639]You are massively over-simplifying the issue. The burqa and this stupid swimsuit thing were created with the purpose of oppressing women. You cannot deny this as that is what they are made and used for in many places around the globe. It is not a symbol of freedom or liberty it's a symbol of oppression and control - It goes against the values of the French people and thus it is banned. Please think about it more than just "she wants to wear it so she should be able to". It's not as simple as that. (this is totally ignoring the fact that some people probably aren't even wearing them by choice as oppressive traditions are enforced within some Muslim families even when in another country.)[/QUOTE] but it's not giving women more rights if it doesn't change anything about why those rights are restricted. a ban is not at all a workable solution to any of this, even from the perspective of someone who disagrees with Islam. you need real sociological change over a long period of time to fix all that, this ban just smacks of feel-good "we did our part time to go home" shit

[QUOTE=The golden;50902639]You are massively over-simplifying the issue. The burqa and this stupid swimsuit thing were created with the purpose of oppressing women. You cannot deny this as that is what they are made and used for in many places around the globe. It is not a symbol of freedom or liberty it's a symbol of oppression and control - It goes against the values of the French people and thus it is banned. Please think about it more than just "she wants to wear it so she should be able to". It's not as simple as that. (this is totally ignoring the fact that some people probably aren't even wearing them by choice as oppressive traditions are enforced within some Muslim families even when in another country.)[/QUOTE] You completely keep ignoring our counterpoints and keep looping the same message like a broken record. Without claiming that all Muslims are oppressed or something, explain how regulating what you may wear is not oppressive in itself. What do we gain by eliminating this liberty? Is it not a scary precedent that a government can tell you what you can wear?

[QUOTE=The golden;50902639]You are massively over-simplifying the issue. The burqa and this stupid swimsuit thing were created with the purpose of oppressing women. You cannot deny this as that is what they are made and used for in many places around the globe. It is not a symbol of freedom or liberty it's a symbol of oppression and control - It goes against the values of the French people and thus it is banned. Please think about it more than just "she wants to wear it so she should be able to". It's not as simple as that. (this is totally ignoring the fact that some people probably aren't even wearing them by choice as oppressive traditions are enforced within some Muslim families even when in another country.)[/QUOTE] No, the burkini was created to make it easier for women from conservative islamic backgrounds to go to the beach. I see that as a gentle push towards intergration.

[QUOTE=Cone;50902644]but that's not gonna change any of the reasons why women wear them, so what's the point?[/QUOTE] I am willing to bet that it's mostly a vote grab, since you can present the issue in a way that appeals both to left and right-wing voters, and how it's unironically described as a security measure. Not to play the role of tin foil-wearing libertarian (I am not), but there are several examples of legislation advertised as security measures that happened to curtail personal liberties in the past decade.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50902672]No. The alternative is to let standards change over time. You want dramatic change NOW, you can't wait, you won't wait, and to get your change, you'll demean, damn, and disturb the people you're trying to get to assimilate. We live in Canada. We have a [B]fuck ton[/B] of muslims. We do not legislate against them. We don't discriminate. Guess what? [B]we have the least problems with that portion of our community of any first world nation.[/B] France discriminates against Muslims and has done so for years. This is a continuation of that. This will only push them further away.[/QUOTE] Do you know why we have the least problems? We are a god damn ocean away from them and our process is very tight in terms of immigration. Trust me, I know, My girlfriend is an immigration consultant and she tells me all the crazy shit that happens at our borders. We don't have problem because Canada doesn't go letting in anyone and everyone let Europe does. Or at least has within recent times. And while we are on the topic of standards changing over time. Are you speaking of standard changing for the better or for the worse? Are you aware that the 'standard' in Iran changed over time? Yea, Now since 1979 the rights of women have been revoked. If thats what you consider to be a change in standard, well its coming for the rest of the world if you let it. [QUOTE=RobL;50902674]And how does banning the burkini help with that?[/QUOTE] Your answer is the very post you quoted..

[QUOTE=The golden;50902689]I don't think their intent was to "help" anyone. As said by their PM: "France’s Prime Minister has backed the banning of burkini swimsuits, saying they are not compatible with French values and are based on the “enslavement of women”." It's about removing a symbol of oppression which is against their culture and values, not really about helping people specifically. I mean, treating a Muslim woman like she might be treated in her homeland is already illegal in France. As is running illegal courts or perusing justice outside the law. Much of those practices are already illegal on French soil anyway.[/QUOTE] It doesn't remove the symbol though. If they're forced to wear it, they're still gonna be forced to wear it at home. They just can't go to the beach now. It doesn't help and it won't enact the social change that people are hoping for. All it does is ensure that Muslim women don't speak out about oppression for fear of more of their rights being stripped away, it ensures that more of this oppression happens in the secrecy of the home, and it ensures that Muslim people are more isolated in society which is exactly what organizations like ISIS want in order to recruit more people who are disenfranchised with how other countries treat the Muslim people. This ban does nothing good. I understand wanting to get rid of an older ideal which can be oppressive and does not line up with modern ideals, but this is not the way to go about it. It's something that needs to happen over time, otherwise it's seen as overly forceful and like purposeful isolation/segregation. Like I said earlier, oppression is never the solution to oppression.

[QUOTE=The golden;50902639]You are massively over-simplifying the issue. The burqa and this stupid swimsuit thing were created with the purpose of oppressing women. You cannot deny this as that is what they are made and used for in many places around the globe. It is not a symbol of freedom or liberty it's a symbol of oppression and control - It goes against the values of the French people and thus it is banned. Please think about it more than just "she wants to wear it so she should be able to". It's not as simple as that.[/QUOTE] Haha, "created with the purpose of oppressing women." Was the habit Nuns wear created to oppress woman? What about the shawl Amish women wear? Is the fact that some cultures put an emphasis on modesty so revolting to you? I thought the west was "a beacon of freedom and liberty."

[QUOTE=phaedon;50902698] Not to play the role of tin foil-wearing libertarian (I am not), but there are several examples of legislation advertised as security measures that happened to curtail personal liberties in the past decade.[/QUOTE] Its a real problem, and this isn't the first time [video]https://youtube.com/watch?v=V9_PjdU3Mpo[/video]

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902626]This is a good point. Do you believe that some personal liberties are worth losing to protect democracy? Assuming democracy is your ideal.[/QUOTE] Depends on what you describe as personal liberties, I guess. I think that you should be able to express yourself however you want as long as it doesn't directly limit someone else doing the same thing. Inciting violence is obviously wrong, being hateful or backwards and keeping it for yourself isn't threatening towards democracy, for example.

[QUOTE=phaedon;50902728]Depends on what you describe as personal liberties, I guess. I think that you should be able to express yourself however you want as long as it doesn't directly limit someone else doing the same thing. Inciting violence is obviously wrong, being hateful or backwards and keeping it for yourself isn't threatening towards democracy, for example.[/QUOTE] Agreed. But what if your nation is threatened by the liberties you give to those who want to do harm, to those who hate your liberties? Again, I'm only speaking in terms of ideology. Furthermore why is it okay for people who value their own liberties to defend and try to preserve an obvious reign of oppression. Again I refer back to Iran in the 1970s. [IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/84/27/c7/8427c72a4e649c57f4cfb62cfa73f510.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=J!NX;50902266]lets be fair, if you're still forced to cover most of your body you're still not dressing how you want[/QUOTE] If you're forced to wear clothes then it's not a law to ban the clothing that's gonna help you, it's all the (free) services that exist to help you deal with an abusive entourage, harassment and such. It's a redundant law made to oppress people and that's substantially going against the secular principles of the nation. It's literally building a bias against one religion over others, which is dogshit.

[QUOTE=The golden;50902580]Whether or not the person wears one willingly isn't really the point here.... the point is that the whole point these types of clothing were made is to oppress and control women. These items (and items that are similar) ARE used to oppress women and to think otherwise is ignorance. That goes against French values on an extreme level. Yeah no shit people want them banned there. People who just think "well she's choosing to wear one" and then stop there are seriously under-thinking the situation. It's not that simple.[/QUOTE] And you're not thinking about the situation enough while claiming you have and your own view point is the only one to hold. There are some muslim women who want to wear one, and some who don't. Lets start there. The ones who do, are being harmed by this. You can go ahead and say "But I know they're just being oppressed into that". [B]Do you?[/B] Do you actually know that? No, you don't. At best, it's a guess, at worst, an assumption that's far too wide for you to cast without any doubts about it. So, we're harming the people who most want to be part of the western society, those who want to go to a beach showing skin off. How does this help? What you [B]haven't[/B] thought about enough is how fucking disturbing it is for [B]any[/B] person to pick what another person is allowed to think, allowed to want, allowed to desire. And you've done that. You've gone right into the "I disrespect your agency, your free will, your mind, and everything that makes you YOU, and I'm proud to tell you I'm right and you can't have this".

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902741]Agreed. But what if your nation threatened by liberties you give to those who want to do harm, to those who hate your liberties?[/QUOTE] Let's pick a neo-nazi, for example. He clearly hates some of the liberties we have and would love to overturn them. I don't think he should be prosecuted for saluting or displaying fascist symbols, but should be prosecuted whenever he tries to incite violence against others. [QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902741]Furthermore why is it okay for people who value their own liberties to defend and try to preserve an obvious reign of oppression.[/quote] In this case, quite the opposite is happening, considering that this move promotes segregation. [quote]Again I refer back to Iran in the 1970s.[/QUOTE] What are we trying to establish exactly? That post-revolution Iran is oppressive?

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902714]Do you know why we have the least problems? We are a god damn ocean away from them and our process is very tight in terms of immigration. Trust me, I know, My girlfriend is an immigration consultant and she tells me all the crazy shit that happens at our borders. We don't have problem because Canada doesn't go letting in anyone and everyone let Europe does. Or at least has within recent times. And while we are on the topic of standards changing over time. Are you speaking of standard changing for the better or for the worse? Are you aware that the 'standard' in Iran changed over time? Yea, Now since 1979 the rights of women have been revoked. If thats what you consider to be a change in standard, well its coming for the rest of the world if you let it. Your answer is the very post you quoted..[/QUOTE] The standard here is that muslim people become more liberal. But of course you turn it into a scary situation to try and eek out whatever fear mongering you can. By making these people villanous fucking monsters from the get go in your mind, you're making things worse. Guess what? I have two border security friends, and one in air port security. They tell me crazy shit too, but they also have been pretty clear that it's not just muslim people, and that for them, they're actually the rarities.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902741]Agreed. But what if your nation is threatened by the liberties you give to those who want to do harm, to those who hate your liberties? Again, I'm only speaking in terms of ideology. Furthermore why is it okay for people who value their own liberties to defend and try to preserve an obvious reign of oppression. Again I refer back to Iran in the 1970s. [IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/84/27/c7/8427c72a4e649c57f4cfb62cfa73f510.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] You do understand that iran today is heading in a far more secular direction today than it was immediately following the political revolution, right?

[QUOTE=RobL;50902647]And how does banning the burkini help with that?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=RobL;50902674]And how does banning the burkini help with that?[/QUOTE] I don't agree with it, but if I did lets say, I would probably say something like "They will the forced to use alternatives", though that doesn't really make sense to say either way

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50902781]The standard here is that muslim people become more liberal. But of course you turn it into a scary situation to try and eek out whatever fear mongering you can. By making these people villanous fucking monsters from the get go in your mind, you're making things worse. Guess what? I have two border security friends, and one in air port security. They tell me crazy shit too, but they also have been pretty clear that it's not just muslim people, and that for them, they're actually the rarities.[/QUOTE] I'm not fear mongering, I never said that muslim people are bad. I'm actually saying the ideology of oppression is bad. And oppression is very real and it spreads like wild fire. The reason I mentioned my girlfriend being an immigration consultant isn't because "shes seen some shit", its to illustrate that there are very extensive hurdles to get over before you're even allowed into the country. For example she works with refugees. Those who accept the reign of oppression are makign it worse. I'm just goign to repost this image since it was the last post on the last page and could have been overlooked. But I really think this illustrates exactly the kind of damage this ideology can do if you give it the liberty of "freedom of expression" Snip, someone quoted so that will suffice*** [QUOTE=da space core;50902820]You do understand that iran today is heading in a far more secular direction today than it was immediately following the political revolution, right?[/QUOTE] Btw, It's actually not. I don't knwo where you got that from. "90–95% of Iranians associate themselves with the Shi'a branch of Islam, the official state religion, and about 5–10% with the Sunni and Sufi branches of Islam." Literally All it takes is a google to get accurate information.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902830]I'm not fear mongering, I never said that muslim people are bad. I'm actually saying the ideology of oppression is bad. And oppression is very real and it spreads like wild fire. The reason I mentioned my girlfriend being an immigration consultant isn't because "shes seen some shit", its to illustrate that there are very extensive hurdles to get over before you're even allowed into the country. For example she works with refugees. Those who accept the reign of oppression are makign it worse. I'm just goign to repost this image since it was the last post on the last page and could have been overlooked. But I really think this illustrates exactly the kind of damage this ideology can do if you give it the liberty of "freedom of expression" Snip, someone quoted so that will suffice***[/QUOTE] If you're going to fucking oppress people with the guise that you're liberating them, all you're doing is oppressing them under a different guise and you're no better than them really. Telling women who've made grown up fucking decisions that they're wrong, indoctrinated brainwashed fucking idiots like you're doing(yes you are, you don't have to use those exact words for me to get the exact message) is wrong, harmful, and doesn't help anyone. I'm not for "islam" but I'm also not for the oppression of things just because I don't like it. Harmful things are already illegal. Harmful acts are already illegal. Doubling down because you're afraid of muslims is fucking stupid.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50902902]If you're going to fucking oppress people with the guise that you're liberating them, all you're doing is oppressing them under a different guise and you're no better than them really. Telling women who've made grown up fucking decisions that they're wrong, indoctrinated brainwashed fucking idiots like you're doing(yes you are, you don't have to use those exact words for me to get the exact message) is wrong, harmful, and doesn't help anyone. I'm not for "islam" but I'm also not for the oppression of things just because I don't like it. Harmful things are already illegal. Harmful acts are already illegal. Doubling down because you're afraid of muslims is fucking stupid.[/QUOTE] You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, but this doesn't come from a "fear" of muslims. I don't know what you're going on about. All I'm doing is state true facts. Niqabs, Burkas, Burkinis, whatever, are products of a reign of oppression. the same reign of oppression that is killing people in France because of ideology. So please tell me why france wouldn't try and fight back by enforcing their liberal ideology in their own home country. The way I see it, oppressing oppression isn't really oppression. Especially if the oppression that is being outlawed is fucking terrible in the first place. Which it is. Lastly, these "grown up women making their grown up decisions" doesn't mean shit if their entire life has been built on the fucking platform of oppression and religion. Lets just put this into perspective shall we?

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902960]You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, but this doesn't come from a "fear" of muslims. I don't know what you're going on about. [B]All I'm doing is state true facts. Niqabs, Burkas, Burkinis, whatever, are products of a reign of oppression. the same reign of oppression that is killing people in France because of ideology.[/B] So please tell me why france wouldn't try and fight back by enforcing their liberal ideology in their own home country. The way I see it, oppressing oppression isn't really oppression. Especially if the oppression that is being outlawed is fucking terrible in the first place. Which it is. [B]Lastly, these "grown up women making their grown up decisions" doesn't mean shit if their entire life has been built on the fucking platform of oppression and religion.[/B] Lets just put this into perspective shall we?[/QUOTE] They're part of the same religion, therefore they're causing the deaths? No. Not even remotely close. So grown up women who convert to islam in their late 20's are what then? What do [B]YOU[/B] make of them? You're so ready to say they're indoctrinated and mind washed that you'd probably ignore anything they had to add to the discussion. [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] Alright, so I have a question If we just outright banned the muslim faith from the western world, would that result in good things, or in bad things? You seem certain nothing bad would happen from oppressing the oppressed.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902960]You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, but this doesn't come from a "fear" of muslims. I don't know what you're going on about. All I'm doing is state true facts. Niqabs, Burkas, Burkinis, whatever, are products of a reign of oppression. the same reign of oppression that is killing people in France because of ideology. So please tell me why france wouldn't try and fight back by enforcing their liberal ideology in their own home country. The way I see it, oppressing oppression isn't really oppression. Especially if the oppression that is being outlawed is fucking terrible in the first place. Which it is. Lastly, these "grown up women making their grown up decisions" doesn't mean shit if their entire life has been built on the fucking platform of oppression and religion. Lets just put this into perspective shall we?[/QUOTE] Oppressing oppression doesn't work. You're going to do nothing more than piss off those Muslim women and make them hate you more. Also, think of this: - How was the civil rights crisis in America solved back in the 60s? Were the racists oppressed just like the black people were? No.

Long as it doesn't go the other way around (Muslims harassing women over wearing bikini's), I don't see an issue with Muslim women wearing burkini's out of their own volition.

I'm going to ban ankle length skirts and female hair longer than shoulder-length. I will also ban bonnets and conservative dresses. That will protect Pentecostal and Amish women from being oppressed.