France’s Prime Minister backs burkini swimsuit ban, saying they are based on “enslavement of women" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50903177]I'm going to ban ankle length skirts and female hair longer than shoulder-length. I will also ban bonnets and conservative dresses. That will protect Pentecostal and Amish women from being oppressed.[/QUOTE] How else would you ever protect them? Without you to tell them what values they're supposed to have, how are they ever going to know? Don't they know that without us to push the right views on them, they'll never be free?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50902981]They're part of the same religion, therefore they're causing the deaths? No. Not even remotely close. So grown up women who convert to islam in their late 20's are what then? What do [B]YOU[/B] make of them? You're so ready to say they're indoctrinated and mind washed that you'd probably ignore anything they had to add to the discussion. [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] Alright, so I have a question If we just outright banned the muslim faith from the western world, would that result in good things, or in bad things? You seem certain nothing bad would happen from oppressing the oppressed.[/QUOTE] We are you lumping all muslims together? A large portion of muslims in the world do not wear traditional garments. And secondly why are you grasping at straws trying to pull words out of my mouth? I never said they are causing deaths by being part of the religion. Thirdly, If a woman in her 20s wanted to join the religion (specifically the fundamental part of the religion, I would definitely consider it to be indoctrination, since no one in their right mind would give up personal liberties unless they were either forced, or told if they didn't they would go to hell. In either event, this is indeed indoctrination. I recall A couple of teenage girls running off an joining isis only to be killed a year later. That's the kind of indoctrination. To answer your question, I don't think there is a need to ban muslim faith from the world. I simply think muslim faith as a whole needs to enter into the modern era. Its really just the fundamentalists that I have beef with. The fundamentalists are the ones that perpetuate the oppression, not the religion itself. Edit: Anyway, I'm done, I think I've extrapolated enough. I do Understand where you guys are coming from. But I don't think "I'll defend your right to oppress your own people even if it kills me and my people" is the right answer. Cheers!

Right? I just don't understand how do somebody can reconcile the belief that they are protecting women's freedoms by banning cultural and religious practices and forcing them to adopt their own. What of those women who choose to dress in this way because they value the cultural significance, or believe that this level of modesty is bringing them closer to God? One of my very best friends is a Muslim convert who was raised by nonreligious parents and has never dated a Muslim man, and chooses to dress in Hijabs completely of her own volition. How is she being oppressed? How would banning her right to dress in this way, and forcing her to wear clothes that she doesn't feel comfortable with, protect her freedom?

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50903225]Right? I just don't understand how do somebody can reconcile the belief that they are protecting women's freedoms by banning cultural and religious practices and forcing them to adopt their own. What of those women who choose to dress in this way because they value the cultural significance, or believe that this level of modesty is bringing them closer to God? One of my very best friends is a Muslim convert who was raised by nonreligious parents and has never dated a Muslim man, and chooses to dress in Hijabs completely of her own volition. How is she being oppressed? How would banning her right to dress in this way, and forcing her to wear clothes that she doesn't feel comfortable with, protect her freedom?[/QUOTE] "They don't matter. I'm sorry for them, but they have to live with it, we must fight extremism in every way we can, no matter how bad the side effects it has on our society are." /s

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50903225] One of my very best friends is a Muslim convert who was raised by nonreligious parents and has never dated a Muslim man, and chooses to dress in Hijabs completely of her own volition. How is she being oppressed? How would banning her right to dress in this way, and forcing her to wear clothes that she doesn't feel comfortable with, protect her freedom?[/QUOTE] but its not completely her own volition, the Islam asks it of her, demands it even. Sure she might not see it as forced but thats because it's part of her religion to wear it so she [b]has[/b] to be ok with it. A woman who denies wearing covering clothing described in the Quran is simply breaking one of the rules of the belief. [editline]d[/editline] And you might now know but there is a very clear peer pressure thing going on amongst muslim girls in Turkish families where if you don't cover your hair, you're always looked a bit down upon or always get weird looks from family members. would be ignorant to say that wearing Hijabs or Burkas for all muslim womens is complete free will, because it really isnt

as long as i'm allowed to wear a mankini

[QUOTE=Xephio;50903266]but its not completely her own volition, the Islam asks it of her, demands it even. Sure she might not see it as forced but thats because it's part of her religion to wear it so she [b]has[/b] to be ok with it. A woman who denies wearing covering clothing described in the Quran is simply breaking one of the rules of the belief.[/QUOTE] So what? They're accepting that by wearing what it asks. They're not feeling like slaves who are being oppressed by the religion, they're [i]accepting[/i] what it asks and doing it. She's simply practicing her religion. She decided to follow the religion on her own, nobody forced her, and she is simply following what it says. Simple as that. Almost [i]all[/i] religions say the followers must do something. How is it suddenly unacceptable when Islam does it?

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50903210]We are you lumping all muslims together? [/QUOTE] Why are you? [QUOTE]A large portion of muslims in the world do not wear traditional garments.[/QUOTE] Traditional to who? Source? I'm not sure what you're arguing with this because I never stated "All muslims this, all muslims that". [QUOTE]And secondly why are you grasping at straws trying to pull words out of my mouth? I never said they are causing deaths by being part of the religion.[/QUOTE] Grasping at the straws that you put in your mouth, eh? [QUOTE]All I'm doing is state true facts. Niqabs, Burkas, Burkinis, whatever, are products of a reign of oppression. the same reign of oppression that is killing people in France because of ideology.[/QUOTE] I mean, to me, that certainly seems like you're saying that it's all one thing that's responsible for all these things. [QUOTE] Thirdly, If a woman in her 20s wanted to join the religion (specifically the fundamental part of the religion, I would definitely consider it to be indoctrination, since no one in their right mind would give up personal liberties unless they were either forced, or told if they didn't they would go to hell. In either event, this is indeed indoctrination.[/QUOTE] Well, like I expected, you would actively disregard another human beings will, thoughts, personal agency and responsibility, to enact your power over them. You can't act like it's anything but that when you would ignore them, and say "Yeah, I don't care, you were indoctrinated". Who are you to decide what's in someone's "Right mind"? That's the thing, you're determining, on an objective scale that you've arbitrarily dreamt up, that you know what the "Right" thing is. You don't. I'm not going to claim I do, because I don't, but like I've stressed all thread, I don't want to disrespect someone elses agency and free will and put myself above them. [QUOTE]I recall A couple of teenage girls running off an joining isis only to be killed a year later. That's the kind of indoctrination.[/QUOTE] Yeah, 16 year olds. I'm not talking about them. [QUOTE] To answer your question, I don't think there is a need to ban muslim faith from the world. I simply think muslim faith as a whole needs to enter into the modern era.[/QUOTE] And persecuting them with legislation has historically what effect? Oh, you don't know? It causes them to further insulate themselves into far more insular communities. [B]THIS[/B] is why Canada has had so little trouble. Because we don't force them to be more insular. They're able to be free, see the benefits of freedom, and make that choice for themselves. No one, not a single fucking person on earth, needs you making this decision for them. [QUOTE]Its really just the fundamentalists that I have beef with. The fundamentalists are the ones that perpetuate the oppression, not the religion itself.[/QUOTE] Then why are you targeting all muslims? [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Xephio;50903266]but its not completely her own volition, the Islam asks it of her, demands it even. Sure she might not see it as forced but thats because it's part of her religion to wear it so she [b]has[/b] to be ok with it. A woman who denies wearing covering clothing described in the Quran is simply breaking one of the rules of the belief. [editline]d[/editline] And you might now know but there is a very clear peer pressure thing going on amongst muslim girls in Turkish families where if you don't cover your hair, you're always looked a bit down upon or always get weird looks from family members. would be ignorant to say that wearing Hijabs or Burkas for all muslim womens is complete free will, because it really isnt[/QUOTE] Okay but you're fine with culutures having these sorts of pressure, in fact, you're [B]part of the pressure[/B] from your own culture to force people to assimilate to your views but you don't see the inherit hypocrisy of you being a part of this, do you?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50902981] So grown up women who convert to islam in their late 20's are what then? [/QUOTE] an extreme minority

I have no idea which side of the argument to choose here I think I might just choose to sit back and watching the drama

[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;50902602]It's not like this law is going to liberate the hypothetically oppressed Muslim women living in France. Now it just means they can't go to the beach anymore.[/QUOTE] If they can't go to the beach, you prove everyone's point about oppression of women and the illusion of choice of wearing a burka. Do you not fucking realize this Also 'hypothetically' lol

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50902626]Dude, thats such a simple minded way of negotiating the implications of my post. I don't even know if i should respond to this seriously. That's how preposterous your over simplification is. Do you really think the government is banning it because "I don't like the way it looks". Obviously its because of fucking terrorism, smh.[/QUOTE] I just don't see the connection between allowing burkinis and France getting "steam rolled by terrorists". If anything banning a piece of religious/cultural clothing is what's going to antagonise people.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50903459]If they can't go to the beach, you prove everyone's point about oppression of women and the illusion of choice of wearing a burka. Do you not fucking realize this Also 'hypothetically' lol[/QUOTE] That's like proving child abuse is bad by releasing a child molester on a playground

[QUOTE=Xephio;50903266]but its not completely her own volition, the Islam asks it of her, demands it even. Sure she might not see it as forced but thats because it's part of her religion to wear it so she [b]has[/b] to be ok with it. A woman who denies wearing covering clothing described in the Quran is simply breaking one of the rules of the belief. [editline]d[/editline] And you might now know but there is a very clear peer pressure thing going on amongst muslim girls in Turkish families where if you don't cover your hair, you're always looked a bit down upon or always get weird looks from family members. would be ignorant to say that wearing Hijabs or Burkas for all muslim womens is complete free will, because it really isnt[/QUOTE] Uh... No, dude. She wears it because she chooses to wear it. We're in the Midwestern United States, not Saudi Arabia. There is no punishment for not wearing a hijab, and if she were not comfortable with wearing one, she wouldn't. Missi dressed very conservatively long before she became a convert. It is simply how she prefers to dress. Long before she found religion, it was ankle length skirts and sleeved dresses for her, and (yes) even headscarves on a fairly frequent basis. Now that she has converted, she takes a ton of pride in her clothing. She feels at home in this religion, and loves the style and beauty found in their clothing. She has many beautiful dresses, patterns, and jewelries, and has a wonderful time showing them off. She was posting pictures nonstop on Eid al-Fitr, which is a holiday occuring at the end of Ramadan in which Muslims wear their finest clothes and celebrate the end of the fast. It was like a fashion show. She doesn't chose to wear the hijab because she is pressure to, or because of a begrudging obligation. She wears the hijab because she values her cultural identity. Even if she [I]didn't[/I] particularly enjoy dressing in this way, and felt compelled to by virtue of her religion... she chose to become a Muslim. If she feels that it her religious obligation to God to dress in this way, then who the hell are you to demand that she not? If she went to the beach, she would almost certainly wear a "burkini," or similar garment. Religious freedom is a right guaranteed to [I]everybody.[/I] France just effectively banned her right to celebrate her cultural identity and dress in the manner in which she's most comfortable in the name of "protecting her from oppression," which is hypocritical to the extreme. You can't protect somebody from oppression by oppressing them further.

[QUOTE=phygon;50903427]an extreme minority[/QUOTE] So? You're still saying it's perfectly acceptable for [B]your[/B] point of view to be given an objective, higher value than their point of view. In essence, you're more important than them, your voice means more, and your decisions do too. This whole thread has been an argument of "lets over ride their personal agency because we know BEST" without thinking about what best is, what the result of persecuting people is. Just like the last one. It's just going to be the same thing in every thread. You people saying it's perfectly liberal, acceptable, reasonable, and even god damn [B]righteous[/B] of you to strip these women of their opinions, their choices, their backgrounds, their minds and their own personal agency because somehow, you know, deep down, they're all too brainwashed(OH SORRY IT'S INDOCTRINATED, even though that's the same thing in this context) to make decisions for themselves. I have no doubt, none what so ever, that some muslim women are forced into things they don't want to do. That is abhorrent. I cannot stop that by legislating against them. I just can't, it won't have the intended affect and will make things worse. I feel bad for them that they've had their choices over ridden, or otherwise made for them by their culture or world. Some women aren't going to be in that boat, and lumping them all in to be victims of western legislation is never going to push them towards us. I genuinely believe if you stopped persecuting them, as France has done for 30 odd years, over time things would get better, and they'd want to be a part of our culture. That has never happened overnight, and you people in your impatience, are going to make it never happen at all.

[QUOTE=Conscript;50903459]If they can't go to the beach, you prove everyone's point about oppression of women and the illusion of choice of wearing a burka. Do you not fucking realize this Also 'hypothetically' lol[/QUOTE] Yeah but how does them not being able go to the beach STOP oppression?? It doesn't. Just makes them do it more in secret.

[QUOTE=Pascall;50903508]Yeah but how does them not being able go to the beach STOP oppression?? It doesn't. Just makes them do it more in secret.[/QUOTE] But don't you see? They'll jeopardize their whole lives [B]JUST[/B] to go to the beach now, now they have to break the bonds of oppression! [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Conscript;50903459]If they can't go to the beach, you prove everyone's point about oppression of women and the illusion of choice of wearing a burka. Do you not fucking realize this Also 'hypothetically' lol[/QUOTE] Look, you're not one for nuance, but here's the situation. The women who might have gone to the beach and done right by themselves in their own moral code by being modest, at the beach, can no longer go there, and now never will. Before, they might have had a glimpse of western life, and been interested and attracted to it. Now that they've been persecuted by the fucking state, they will look out at western society and be disgusted by it. Do some of you just not understand this? Some of you would fucking kill a person for taking away the things [B]YOU[/B] define yourselves by, but you won't even [B]question[/B] why it might be wrong for you to do so to others. [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] I asked this last thread, none of you wanted to answer. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50895777]You know what I fundamentally don't understand about your political mindset? You lack empathy of the most basic kind. [B]Not one of you[/B] would appreciate government intervention into your [B]own[/B] personal lives. Not one of you would take it lying down, you'd all get further entrenched in your own views and be [B]sure[/B] the government was wrong and you were right. But you can't, and won't, and utterly refuse to even try, to apply that logic to the people you want to subjugate. You expect them to take it lying down, but you wouldn't.[/QUOTE]

Banning burkini's does nothing but oppress Muslim women. Integration begins with freedom of choice and programs that encourage adaptation. Solutions are never instant, big changes like this only lead to resilience and resentment.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50903225]Right? I just don't understand how do somebody can reconcile the belief that they are protecting women's freedoms by banning cultural and religious practices and forcing them to adopt their own. What of those women who choose to dress in this way because they value the cultural significance, or believe that this level of modesty is bringing them closer to God? One of my very best friends is a Muslim convert who was raised by nonreligious parents and has never dated a Muslim man, and chooses to dress in Hijabs completely of her own volition. How is she being oppressed? How would banning her right to dress in this way, and forcing her to wear clothes that she doesn't feel comfortable with, protect her freedom?[/QUOTE] On the other hand, I know a woman who married a Muslim man and converted to Islam. She does not wear a hijab and has never been pressured by any of her Muslim relatives to. So it is also entirely possible to [i]not[/i] wear a hijab of your own volition.

He's not entirely wrong, I guess. [QUOTE=LtKyle2;50902275]...And if they aren't being forced to wear them? What if they still want to wear them?[/QUOTE] Same principle applied to the story of [URL="http://inspirationalstorytellers.com/the-elephant-and-the-rope/"]The Elephant and The Rope[/URL], I assume. [quote]As a guy was passing the elephants, he suddenly stopped, confused by the fact that these huge creatures where being held by only a single rope tied to their leg. It was obvious the elephants could break the rope and walk away, but for some reason they did not. He saw a trainer nearby and asked why these magnificently strong animals just stood there and made no attempt to break way. “Well”, the trainer said, “when they are very young and much smaller we use a similar size rope to tie them. At that age it is enough to hold them. As they grow up, they are conditioned to think they cannot break away. They believe the rope can still hold them, so they never try to break free.” The guy was amazed. The elephants could break free at any time, but because they thought they could not, they did not try to break the rope. They were stuck right there! This powerful, gigantic creature has limited it’s present abilities by it’s limitations of the past. How many of us go through life limiting our abilities based on failures of the past?[/quote] They're not in Syria anymore, they're in France, with everything that it entails. In France, no one is born into "bondage", so people in France have no "ropes" on them, unlike people in Syria. It's one thing if they choose to still wear that, but in the eyes of this guy, I can understand why he could think that it practically means feminine oppression.

To be fair, France is a secular country and tries hard to stay that way. Technically in public schools you are not allowed to wear anything that clearly express an adherence to any religion. The fact that this could extend to public places in general would not bother me at all and I would personally advocate it.

[QUOTE=Deri102;50904715]To be fair, France is a secular country and tries hard to stay that way. Technically in public schools you are not allowed to wear anything that clearly express an adherence to any religion. The fact that this could extend to public places in general would not bother me at all and I would personally advocate it.[/QUOTE] Yea, that's what I meant when I said in my previous post that no one in France is born into "bondage" - or anyone else in the western world.

I understand banning others for forcing women to wear what they demand. But if they do it by themselves and are comfortable wearing it then I don't get forcing them to stop wearing it. In high school, a Muslim lady came to our school and talked with us and we got to ask questions. Someone asked her if she ever felt like not wearing the burka. She told us that she had grew up that way and when she takes it off she feels like she was naked. So she was completely comfortable wearing it and felt like it was part of herself. She said nobody forces her to do it and she has the choice to take it off but she doesn't personally like the way it feels. I bring this up because it feels like the ban is completely unfair on women who are choosing to wear things like this bikini. Yes it's bad when they're forced, and that sucks. But it's equally sucky to take it away from those who actually wear it on their own without being forced to do so. That's just my feelings on the topic.

I knew a white kid in high school who had a disease that caused his skin to burn incredibly easily from exposure to sunlight. My school banned wearing hoods up. He got in trouble by ignorant teachers multiple times for wearing his hood up while outside, even though if he didn't he would have literal blisters from his skin burning in the sun. I really would like to see him go to the beach dressed in a burkini and get arrested for it. It's a medical necessity for him to cover almost all his skin - but now if a woman had that illness, it would be [i]illegal[/i] for her to wear swimwear that arbitrarily covers too much of her skin. That's just absurd. This is faux-progressiveness. This is exactly the same as those backwards towns in Mississippi passing municipal codes that make sagging your pants an ordinance violation and arresting you and fining you for wearing your pants too low. This is progressive puritanism - instead of only being allowed to show a certain amount of skin, you're prohibited from [i]not[/i] showing a certain amount of skin. This law needs to be struck down - people should be allowed to wear whatever clothing they want.

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50904488]He's not entirely wrong, I guess. Same principle applied to the story of [URL="http://inspirationalstorytellers.com/the-elephant-and-the-rope/"]The Elephant and The Rope[/URL], I assume. They're not in Syria anymore, they're in France, with everything that it entails. In France, no one is born into "bondage", so people in France have no "ropes" on them, unlike people in Syria. It's one thing if they choose to still wear that, but in the eyes of this guy, I can understand why he could think that it practically means feminine oppression.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]You know what I fundamentally don't understand about your political mindset? You lack empathy of the most basic kind. Not one of you would appreciate government intervention into your own personal lives. Not one of you would take it lying down, you'd all get further entrenched in your own views and be sure the government was wrong and you were right. But you can't, and won't, and utterly refuse to even try, to apply that logic to the people you want to subjugate. You expect them to take it lying down, but you wouldn't.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pascall;50903508]Yeah but how does them not being able go to the beach STOP oppression?? It doesn't. Just makes them do it more in secret.[/QUOTE] The only thing stopping them from going to the beach is themself

[QUOTE=Jon MadN;50905165]The only thing stopping them from going to the beach is themself[/QUOTE] And their families. And their culture. And their beliefs. But yeah, if we just remove all that and strip them of their identity, you're totally right.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50905034][quote]A quote[/quote][/QUOTE] I totally lost you there. What were you trying to say?

[QUOTE=Jon MadN;50905165]The only thing stopping them from going to the beach is themself[/QUOTE] No it's not lol [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] If we're following the prospect of them being forced to wear it, suddenly keeping them from going to the beach isn't gonna suddenly open their eyes and be like "oh shit you right I want to go to the beach so I might as well break free of this oppressive culture and walk away from my religious societal expectations!! amazing!" that's not gonna happen lol

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;50905213]I totally lost you there. What were you trying to say?[/QUOTE] That if you were on the recieving end of government regulation that you wouldn't do what you people all expect oppressed muslims to do here. The argument from the side pushing for government intervention into the private lives of people, seems to insist that without such regulation, Muslim culture will either overtake, or never integrate western culture. That's just not true at any level, but it also ignores the truth of the matter. Such regulation historically speaking only further entrenches people into their own views, and only further strengthens insular communities. Speaking from a perspective of empathy though, it's shocking how all of the posters advocating this fail to recognize what their own likely reactions to government intervention into their own lives would be like. None of you would take it lying down, and none of you would integrate better due to said oppression. But you expect these people to do so