France’s Prime Minister backs burkini swimsuit ban, saying they are based on “enslavement of women" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908104]Pascall, you must at least understand what i'm saying. I mean sure you can make a mockery of me by being sarcastic, that'll sure show me, but What I'm saying does make sense. One can be overly anything, and that can make it a bad thing. There is a balance between right and wrong and different circumstances require different actions to be taken. While banning something may not be the final solution to an extremist problem, it is in a way a retaliation to it. It's not completely nonsensical in it's resolution.[/QUOTE] But you are not banning people forcing other people to wear something by banning what they wear.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908104]Pascall, you must at least understand what i'm saying. I mean sure you can make a mockery of me by being sarcastic, that'll sure show me, but What I'm saying does make sense. One can be overly anything, and that can make it a bad thing. There is a balance between right and wrong and different circumstances require different actions to be taken. While banning something may not be the final solution to an extremist problem, it is in a way a retaliation to it. It's not completely nonsensical in it's resolution.[/QUOTE] I understand the reasoning behind this ban. I get that it's retaliatory. I understand that there are issues with integration among Muslims. But it is authoritarian and contrary to the values of every liberal country on the planet. If I'm "blinded by my liberalism," good. I won't accept authoritarian, counter-productive laws that go against the core liberal values in France and the US and essentially the entire western world. Again, I understand the reasoning. But removing liberty as a "retaliation" for people not integrating properly is even less reasonable than removing liberty for the safety of civilians. All this does is further marginalize Muslims and show to them that the French government has no respect for their cultural and religious values. I value liberty and religious freedom. This is oppressive, authoritarian bullshit. There is no excuse for banning certain types of [I]swimwear[/I] in a country that is supposed to espouse an ideology of liberty and freedom for all.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50908126]But you are not banning people forcing other people to wear something by banning what they wear.[/QUOTE] True. But in light of recent events, France isn't in the wrong to protect their country values by disallowing something that is historically a symbol of oppression. France has a rich culture. With the introduction of another culture it dilutes the original culture of the country. And eventually you're left with an amalgamation of a bunch of opposing ideals. This is how civil unrest starts. I believe this is an attempt to maintain the country's identity. Especially in the face of attacks and ideological takeover. It's always about symbolism and what things represent.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908104]Pascall, you must at least understand what i'm saying. I mean sure you can make a mockery of me by being sarcastic, that'll sure show me, but What I'm saying does make sense. One can be overly anything, and that can make it a bad thing. There is a balance between right and wrong and different circumstances require different actions to be taken. While banning something may not be the final solution to an extremist problem, it is in a way a retaliation to it. It's not completely nonsensical in it's resolution.[/QUOTE] Knee-jerk "retaliation" benefits nobody but people who want to feel comfortable and secure in the knowledge that they "got rid of" a problem by pushing the dirt and mud underneath a rug and being like "hell yeah I did it go me these people will totally be better off" when in reality that mud is gonna dry up and just be gross in like a day and it's gonna smell bad probably and you didn't actually solve anything you just made it so that now everyone else is gonna shove mud under that rug and make an even bigger mess that you're gonna need to rent a Stanley Steamer for. Doesn't matter if them being forced to wear something is oppressive, banning it does literally nothing as I've said repeatedly in the last few pages. I've also repeatedly acknowledged that yes, there is a possibility that the act of being FORCED to wear a cultural garment is a reality! Sure it is! ! ! It exists! Nobody is saying that it doesn't. But it [I]doesn't matter.[/I] [QUOTE]It doesn't remove the symbol though. If they're forced to wear it, they're still gonna be forced to wear it at home. They just can't go to the beach now. It doesn't help and it won't enact the social change that people are hoping for. All it does is ensure that Muslim women don't speak out about oppression for fear of more of their rights being stripped away, it ensures that more of this oppression happens in the secrecy of the home, and it ensures that Muslim people are more isolated in society which is exactly what organizations like ISIS want in order to recruit more people who are disenfranchised with how other countries treat the Muslim people. This ban does nothing good. I understand wanting to get rid of an older ideal which can be oppressive and does not line up with modern ideals, but this is not the way to go about it. It's something that needs to happen over time, otherwise it's seen as overly forceful and like purposeful isolation/segregation. Like I said earlier, oppression is never the solution to oppression.[/QUOTE] If lawmakers and legislators sat to think for more than like 5 minutes on what to do about oppressive cultures, they'd come up with something that wasn't so ridiculous.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908168]True. But in light of recent events, France isn't in the wrong to protect their country values by disallowing something that is historically a symbol of oppression. France has a rich culture. With the introduction of another culture it dilutes the original culture of the country. And eventually you're left with an amalgamation of a bunch of opposing ideals. This is how civil unrest starts. I believe this is an attempt to maintain the country's identity. Especially in the face of attacks and ideological takeover. It's always about symbolism and what things represent.[/QUOTE] You're arguing in favor of nationalism to protect a country's culture. Nationalism is a symptom of a sense of a threatened sociocultural identity, not a solution to it.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908168]True. But in light of recent events, France isn't in the wrong to protect their country values by disallowing something that is historically a symbol of oppression. France has a rich culture. With the introduction of another culture it dilutes the original culture of the country. And eventually you're left with an amalgamation of a bunch of opposing ideals. This is how civil unrest starts. I believe this is an attempt to maintain the country's identity. Especially in the face of attacks and ideological takeover. It's always about symbolism and what things represent.[/QUOTE] But the culture of French Muslims deserves to exist just as well.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908168]True. But in light of recent events, France isn't in the wrong to protect their country values by disallowing something that is historically a symbol of oppression. France has a rich culture. With the introduction of another culture it dilutes the original culture of the country. And eventually you're left with an amalgamation of a bunch of opposing ideals. This is how civil unrest starts. I believe this is an attempt to maintain the country's identity. Especially in the face of attacks and ideological takeover. It's always about symbolism and what things represent.[/QUOTE] I think banning modest swimsuits because it'll somehow stop Muslims from taking over or whatever symbolises hatred and weakness.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908168]True. But in light of recent events, France isn't in the wrong to protect their country values by disallowing something that is historically a symbol of oppression. France has a rich culture. With the introduction of another culture it dilutes the original culture of the country. And eventually you're left with an amalgamation of a bunch of opposing ideals. This is how civil unrest starts. I believe this is an attempt to maintain the country's identity. Especially in the face of attacks and ideological takeover. It's always about symbolism and what things represent.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, over a thousand years of French culture are on the brink of annihilation because a few hundred women wear modest clothing at the beach. Surely banning them isn't at all a stupid, shortsighted and knee-jerk reaction that will only worsen the situation.

[QUOTE=Pascall;50908171]Knee-jerk "retaliation" benefits nobody but people who want to feel comfortable and secure in the knowledge that they "got rid of" a problem by pushing the dirt and mud underneath a rug and being like "hell yeah I did it go me these people will totally be better off" when in reality that mud is gonna dry up and just be gross in like a day and it's gonna smell bad probably and you didn't actually solve anything you just made it so that now everyone else is gonna shove mud under that rug and make an even bigger mess that you're gonna need to rent a Stanley Steamer for. Doesn't matter if them being forced to wear something is oppressive, banning it does literally nothing as I've said repeatedly in the last few pages. I've also repeatedly acknowledged that yes, there is a possibility that the act of being FORCED to wear a cultural garment is a reality! Sure it is! ! ! It exists! Nobody is saying that it doesn't. But it [I]doesn't matter.[/I] If lawmakers and legislators sat to think for more than like 5 minutes on what to do about oppressive cultures, they'd come up with something that wasn't so ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Well like you guys have said there is no quick fix to the cultural differences, and you're right in the sense that if legislators sat down and spent a little more time working it out (or even giving a shit about it in the first place), we would probably see more impacting laws. The problem is that this is an issue that needs to be addressed. And nobody is bothering to come up with real solutions. Trump says build a wall, france says ban swimwear. Ideally letting it fix itself over time would work. In reality I can't see fundamentalists throwing their hands up and being like "yea guys sorry we're wrong about this". By nature fundamentalism is more of a takeover regime.

That's literally all you had to say man. Nobody here is arguing that there could not possibly be oppressive cultural practices. There totally is. But a solution to it is not this. What a possible solution could be? I don't know. And I doubt anybody on this website has the expertise or experience in lawmaking to come up with anything either. We're just idiots on a forum. But we can criticize a law without advocating for oppressive cultural practices. Doesn't mean I'm gonna sit here and be like "I love it when people are forced to wear stuff they don't want to wear". Like... nah... That shit sucks. It's backwards. But no culture has been effectively integrated with modern ideals by force. At least not without some pretty fucking heavy repercussions. And that's something that's probably best avoided, considering the state of our world - and especially France - today.

[QUOTE=Pascall;50908291] But no culture has been effectively integrated with modern ideals by force. At least not without some pretty fucking heavy repercussions. And that's something that's probably best avoided, considering the state of our world - and especially France - today.[/QUOTE] I mean that's literally why everybody hates ISIS, because thats essentially what they are trying to accomplish. I don't really give a shit about swimsuits, it's the idea behind it that I can see they were really grasping at that is what makes sense. Culture integration is a bitch. Especially when some members of the other culture come with an intent to shit all over the founding culture of the land. That's when you get over reactions and snap decisions that don't really make any sense. I guess I wasn't clear enough about my position and hopefully everybody didn't think i was all " Ban those fucking swimsuit motherfuckers!".

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908058]you guys are just blinded by your own overly liberal ignorance. Remember, too much of anything is a bad thing.[/QUOTE] Valls is a social liberal of the (nominal) socialist party. Probably a lot more liberal in most of his positions than American liberals. You are doing yourself a disservice by falling to the left-right dichotomy.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908341]I mean that's literally why everybody hates ISIS, because thats essentially what they are trying to accomplish. I don't really give a shit about swimsuits, it's the idea behind it that I can see they were really grasping at that is what makes sense. Culture integration is a bitch. Especially when some members of the other culture come with an intent to shit all over the founding culture of the land. That's when you get over reactions and snap decisions that don't really make any sense. I guess I wasn't clear enough about my position and hopefully everybody didn't think i was all " Ban those fucking swimsuit motherfuckers!".[/QUOTE] You're the one that can't see making a muslims journey into integration harder and more forced by government regulation is more likely to make them fundamentalist, and make them oppose you. But please, create more of the boogeymen you're so scared of while cursing at me for being an "ULTRA LIBERAL"

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;50907787]12 % of France is Muslim, they also have some pretty extreme Muslim ghetto's. You cant legislate for just a neighborhood and if you have to choose between a human slave's shackles to their backwards culture of isolation and an upper suburbanite's fashion/culture statement the choice is easily made... [/QUOTE] I don't see what point you're trying to make here. From my understanding, you're saying that this burkini is much worse than a similar piece of clothing just because it's made by Muslims whose ideology [I]might[/I] cause them oppress women into covering up their bodies. That is completely and utterly stupid. They're [I]swimwear[/I]. This serves the completely same purpose as a full-body swimsuit except it's more baggy and covers the body shape more. The kind of person who would buy these are most likely muslims who already hold western liberal values because a conservative muslim who oppresses their women wouldn't go the beach at all because these burkinis don't even cover the female body that well in accordance to Islamic teachings. I still can't find any one good reason for this ban to even be brought up. It contradicts western values of Freedom and Liberty. It diminishes the rights of women to wear what they want. It doesn't solve the problem of Islamic Extremism. Right now as I'm speaking, Muslims all over the world see this as an act of oppression against them practicing their faith and this is not just a general statement. As a person raised in a Muslim-Majority country by a Muslim family, the Crazies/Fundies/Islamists/Conservatives think that the whole world is against them. That there's a a global conspiracy to bring down the Muslim faith and that the West hates Muslims. Rather than solving the problem,this ban serves as a message that the western world are hypocrites that tote around the message of Freedom while continuing to oppress the freedom and rights of Muslims to practice their religion

[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;50906033]tbh I think hijabs are actually really nice looking and I have a feeling most of the women who wear them think the same[/QUOTE] Hijabs are not comparable to burkas.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908266]Well like you guys have said there is no quick fix to the cultural differences, and you're right in the sense that if legislators sat down and spent a little more time working it out (or even giving a shit about it in the first place), we would probably see more impacting laws. The problem is that this is an issue that needs to be addressed. And nobody is bothering to come up with real solutions. Trump says build a wall, france says ban swimwear. Ideally letting it fix itself over time would work. In reality I can't see fundamentalists throwing their hands up and being like "yea guys sorry we're wrong about this". By nature fundamentalism is more of a takeover regime.[/QUOTE] You can't see them throwing their hands up? Of course not. Laws like this are fuel for them. Why is it so hard to understand that you're giving them kindling to burn and make their cause stronger. If we just treat them better, we don't get this issue nearly as much. You don't get the history of france and how it's treated muslims for the last 30 years at least I'm figuring, otherwise you wouldn't be suggesting that we double down on harmful legislation that, historically has just made things worse.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50908709]You can't see them throwing their hands up? Of course not. Laws like this are fuel for them. Why is it so hard to understand that you're giving them kindling to burn and make their cause stronger. If we just treat them better, we don't get this issue nearly as much. You don't get the history of france and how it's treated muslims for the last 30 years at least I'm figuring, otherwise you wouldn't be suggesting that we double down on harmful legislation that, historically has just made things worse.[/QUOTE] I can affirm that these things make Muslims lean towards being more Anti-West from looking at my Social Media. What makes a better target for your frustrations than a country oppressing your brothers and sister in faith. Maybe this shit is why we see France getting attacked by Islamic Extremists a lot

[QUOTE=Matrix374;50908729]I can affirm that these things make Muslims lean towards being more Anti-West from looking at my Social Media. What makes a better target for your frustrations than a country oppressing your brothers and sister in faith. Maybe this shit is why we see France getting attacked by Islamic Extremists a lot[/QUOTE] It's exactly why france has as many problems as they do. They have a longer history discriminating against muslims than most of the west, they do so openly and blatantly and they do so with no apologies as a government. I don't get why people think you can treat immigrants like shit, banning their culture, and expect them to just integrate. My whole point with my post about empathy(repeatedly) is that [B]all[/B] it would take a person like DIBBS to see why he's wrong is to simlpy use your empathy. That's [B]all[/B] you need to show why doing this kind of legislation is fucking stupid. Everyone, please, for your own sakes, imagine what it would be like to love your culture, move to a new place, and be told your culture is now wrong, and we're going to start taking it away from you, piece by piece. Would you roll over and let them do it, or would you cling to your culture and identity?

[QUOTE=phygon;50908708]Hijabs are not comparable to burkas.[/QUOTE] The swimwear is actually considerably closer to a Hijab than a Burqa since it still shows the face. A burqa literally covers [I]everything[/I]. The whole Burkini name is catchy but practically makes no sense. [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=DiBBs27;50908341]I mean that's literally why everybody hates ISIS, because thats essentially what they are trying to accomplish. I don't really give a shit about swimsuits, it's the idea behind it that I can see they were really grasping at that is what makes sense. Culture integration is a bitch. Especially when some members of the other culture come with an intent to shit all over the founding culture of the land. That's when you get over reactions and snap decisions that don't really make any sense. I guess I wasn't clear enough about my position and hopefully everybody didn't think i was all " Ban those fucking swimsuit motherfuckers!".[/QUOTE] ISIS doesn't recruit people into joining their cause by making them wear conservative swimwear. They recruit them by convincing them they're being oppressed by a tyrannical, uncaring government that wants to snuff their culture out and treat them like second class citizens, thus prompting them to radicalize and join what they perceive as people more accepting of them. Pointing fingers at people and blaming them for supporting terrorism while banning their choices of attire only plays into ISIS' mind games and helps them in the short and the long run. There's a reason why every time there's been an attack in France the Imams of the nation showed up hand in hand with Catholic and Jewish priests. They are trying to promote a collaborative, friendly and cohesive image in hope that non-Muslims don't start oppressing Muslims, and in hope that Muslims don't start feeling oppressed and join ISIS as a result.