Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52468372]please read about the facts of the flotilla case, the "humanitarian aid" onboard were hidden weapons. Israel stopped them from violating the blockade against gaza and told them they would be taken to Ashdod so it could be determined if they were bringing in humanitarian aid or weapons. The activists then attacked the soldiers that boarded the ship. Turns out that the "humanitarian aid" contained weapons, camouflage clothing, expired medication and building materials that were not allowed into Gaza because Hamas would use it for building tunnels. When Israel tried to deliver the remaining materials into Gaza, Hamas actually refused the aid and only accepted it when the UN intervened. One of the people on that flotilla was a member of the Knesset named Haneen Zoabi. She's a member of the Israeli knesset and hates Israel with a burning passion. She's gone so far as to call the Hamas kidnapping and murder of three Israeli civilian teenagers as not an act of terror. Despite all this, she still serves in the Knesset. What "rogue state" would allow such a person to live, let alone serve in the national parliment? Israel has had multiple chances to wipe out significant Palestinian populations and has never used those chances. If Israel was interested in killing all Palestinians, Israel would have jumped at all of those chances. Please educate yourself instead of listening to [B]Malay propaganda[/B].[/QUOTE] Ah yes, you're also free to insult me if it suits your fancy. Or my presumed race. Let's see if the esteemed mod with their unfaltering fairness will not count that as racism. The 'weapons' that you mentioned are knives, clubs, slingshots, bulletproof vests, gas masks, and night vision goggles. It's definitely going to do severe damage to nuclear-dicked, ironwall-clad Israel Most of them consists of 10,000 tonnes of goods, including school supplies, building materials and two large electricity generators. [url]http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Wheelchairs-as-well-as-weapons-found-on-board-aid-ships[/url] [t]http://images.jpost.com/image/upload/t_Article2016_Control/144105[/t] Results of post-mortem examinations had earlier suggested a total of 30 bullets were found in the bodies of the dead activists, including one who had been shot four times in the head. [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/10203726[/url]. How many shots has landed on the ISraeli 'pirates'. if they truly has went againts an armed group like you described? And, I can't believe you're gloating on how you're such a good guy because you kept millions of humans half-alive

[QUOTE=hakimhakim;52468388]Ah yes, you're also free to insult me if it suits your fancy. Or my presumed race. Let's see if the esteemed mod with their unfaltering fairness will not count that as racism. The 'weapons' that you mentioned are knives, clubs, slingshots, bulletproof vests, gas masks, and night vision goggles. It's definitely going to do severe damage to nuclear-dicked, ironwall-clad Israel Most of them are carrying 10,000 tonnes of goods, including school supplies, building materials and two large electricity generators. [url]http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Wheelchairs-as-well-as-weapons-found-on-board-aid-ships[/url] [t]http://images.jpost.com/image/upload/t_Article2016_Control/144105[/t] Results of post-mortem examinations had earlier suggested a total of 30 bullets were found in the bodies of the dead activists, including one who had been shot four times in the head. [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/10203726[/url]. How many shots has landed on the ISraeli 'pirates'. if they are truly has went againts an armed group like you described? And, I can't believe you're gloating on how you're such a good guy because you kept millions of humans half-alive[/QUOTE] I didn't mean Malay as in the ethnic group, I mean Malay as in Malaysian. Sorry for any confusion. The knifes and clubs found on the ship are likely the knifes and clubs that the activists were going to use/were using to fight the IDF soldiers. All parties agree that IDF soldiers were attacked and injured by these activists. They didn't have guns, they attacked the soldiers with knifes and clubs. If you're in a hostile confined place with people carrying knives and clubs massing in on you, clearly intending to harm you, you have every right to neutralize them before they kill you. No shots were landed on the Israelis because the activists didn't have guns. Bulletproof vests, gas masks, and night vision goggles are military equipment. They have a uniquely military use and would help Hamas terrorists by equipping them with it. Now, instead of a Hamas terrorist getting killed by an IDF bullet, he would be able to survive getting hit and survive to fight again. I'm not claiming that Israel is a good guy for not carrying out a genocide against the Palestinians, I'm pointing out how Israel is not interested in doing so. Saying that Israel is a good guy because Israel didn't carry out a genocide is like saying that I'm a good person because I don't go out and randomly injure people. It doesn't make me a good person, it just means that I'm not a bad person.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52468448]I didn't mean Malay as in the ethnic group, I mean Malay as in Malaysian. Sorry for any confusion. The knifes and clubs found on the ship are likely the knifes and clubs that the activists were going to use/were using to fight the IDF soldiers. All parties agree that IDF soldiers were attacked and injured by these activists. They didn't have guns, they attacked the soldiers with knifes and clubs. If you're in a hostile confined place with people carrying knives and clubs massing in on you, clearly intending to harm you, you have every right to neutralize them before they kill you. No shots were landed on the Israelis because the activists didn't have guns. Bulletproof vests, gas masks, and night vision goggles are military equipment. They have a uniquely military use and would help Hamas terrorists by equipping them with it. Now, instead of a Hamas terrorist getting killed by an IDF bullet, he would be able to survive getting hit and survive to fight again. I'm not claiming that Israel is a good guy for not carrying out a genocide against the Palestinians, I'm pointing out how Israel is not interested in doing so. Saying that Israel is a good guy because Israel didn't carry out a genocide is like saying that I'm a good person because I don't go out and randomly injure people. It doesn't make me a good person, it just means that I'm not a bad person.[/QUOTE] I understood If you're confused between Malaysian (citizenship) and Malay (race). Heck, most of us here can't even distinguish between Jew (race) and Zionism (a movement). But my sources aren't Malaysian's at all. Almost all news from all country that language I can fathom said what I said regarding the flotilla incident. And regarding the small amount of tools that can be interpreted as 'weapon', lets be serious here; do you really think they would really endanger Israel more than what the Palestinian already had at their hand? Almost every tool is a double-sided blade, we can use them for good or bad. Even I would carry a club if I venture into an area in Malaysia that I'm not confident about its level of safety. If I venture into Palestine, even I would consider a bulletproof vest, considering countless Palestinian are getting shot every year by Israel, Those small amounts of non-specific tool is never an excuse for pillaging the whole fleet. And the same can be said for the flotilla. If they indeed planned to do harm to Israel, they would have carried guns. Israel soldiers would be shot. But that did not happen. Because they didn't mean any harm. So Israel should not do those atrocities to them. Thus the only reasoning left is Israel wanting to cut the supplies off Palestine, in order to prevent them to prosper (or recover). And back to the solar panels. The act of disposing the panels are clearly intended to prevent Palestine from helping themselves. There's absolutely no danger whatsoever to Israel. The only common denominator for these events are 'Israel cutting supplies for Palestine'. It can be understood from Israel perspective; you'll want to keep them alive, but not prosper, to prevent them from rising up and threatening you. It's a common tactic in all invasion/colonization/subjugation towards the enemy. From Israel perspective, this is justifiable. But not from mine.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52468448] Bulletproof vests, gas masks, and night vision goggles are military equipment. They have a uniquely military use [/QUOTE] I know if I were living a city that gets bombed every other day I'd want a certain two of those items. Shit, I might even want an AK or a rocket to do some damage back to the ones dropping those bombs

[QUOTE=hakimhakim;52468500]I understood If you're confused between Malaysian (citizenship) and Malay (race). Heck, most of us here can't even distinguish between Jew (race) and Zionism (a movement). But my sources aren't Malaysian's at all. Almost all news from all country that language I can fathom said what I said regarding the flotilla incident. And regarding the small amount of tools that can be interpreted as 'weapon', lets be serious here; do you really think they would really endanger Israel more than what the Palestinian already had at their hand? Almost every tool is a double-sided blade, we can use them for good or bad. Even I would carry a club if I venture into an area in Malaysia that I'm not confident about its level of safety. If I venture into Palestine, even I would consider a bulletproof vest, considering countless Palestinian are getting shot every year by Israel, Those small amounts of non-specific tool is never an excuse for pillaging the whole fleet. And the same can be said for the flotilla. If they indeed planned to do harm to Israel, they would have carried guns. Israel soldiers would be shot. But that did not happen. Because they didn't mean any harm. So Israel should not do those atrocities to them. Thus the only reasoning left is Israel wanting to cut the supplies off Palestine, in order to prevent them to prosper (or recover). And back to the solar panels. The act of disposing the panels are clearly intended to prevent Palestine from helping themselves. There's absolutely no danger whatsoever to Israel. The only common denominator for these events are 'Israel cutting supplies for Palestine'. It can be understood from Israel perspective; you'll want to keep them alive, but not prosper, to prevent them from rising up and threatening you. It's a common tactic in all invasion/colonization/subjugation towards the enemy. From Israel perspective, this is justifiable. But not from mine.[/QUOTE] The fleet was never "pillaged". Israel gave Hamas the aid when Hamas accepted it. They did intend to do harm to the IDF soldiers. You don't need a gun to injure someone when they are close to you, a knife/club can do even worse harm than a gun in some close quarters situations. You're talking about Palestine like Palestine is one united country when it isnt. There's the Gaza strip, run by Hamas, and the West Bank, run by the PLO. The big difference is that Hamas is more violent than the PLO and Hamas is an Islamist party. [editline]14th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Morbo!!!;52469117]I know if I were living a city that gets bombed every other day I'd want a certain two of those items. Shit, I might even want an AK or a rocket to do some damage back to the ones dropping those bombs[/QUOTE] They won't be giving bulletproof vests and gas masks to regular civilians. They go to the Qassam Brigade. Gaza doesn't get bombed every other day, it's rare for a bombing to happen outside of an active war with Hamas.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52469440]The fleet was never "pillaged". Israel gave Hamas the aid when Hamas accepted it. They did intend to do harm to the IDF soldiers. You don't need a gun to injure someone when they are close to you, a knife/club can do even worse harm than a gun in some close quarters situations. [editline]14th July 2017[/editline] [/QUOTE] The reason why I said it's a 'pillage', is because it's unlawful. When Mavi Marmara is en route to Gaza through sea route, they were threatened by IDF, to refrain from approaching Gaza coastal, and ordered to go to Ashdod instead. At that time, the flotilla is in international water. They refuse to follow follow IDF unjustifiable order at them, because most countries does not recognizes Israel rights to control Gaza sea and air route. Then, IDF attacked the fleet and killed the passengers while they are in international water. This is clearly an unlawful acts. Israel had no right on Gaza sea route, much less on international water. The flotilla crew responded as they would with any pirate attack. They just acted in self-defense. After taking over the ship, they drag them to Ashdod. Even after the flotilla raid, Israel continues to deny Palestine of various type of aids. In 2014 I think, a conference of donors planned to supply Gaza with a ship specialized in supplying electric power. But Israel prohibits that too. The legality of Israel blockade was also contested by at least 6 independent UN human right expert after Palmer report, challenging both the disproportionate suffering it inflicted, and the qualification of Palmer report author, which is politically motivated. All of the previous assessment by UN shows consensus of clear disapproval of the blockades, called for lifting it, quoting phrases such as: "hopelessly unbalanced," "redundant at best and malicious at worst "unacceptable suffering" and that families were living in "unacceptable, unsustainable conditions" "amount to collective punishment, a violation of international humanitarian law." "The flotilla crisis is the latest symptom of a failed policy. The situation in Gaza is unsustainable and the current policy is unacceptable and counter-productive, and requires a different, more positive strategy. The closure and blockade of the Gaza Strip needs to come to an end. There is now a welcome international consensus on Gaza." And Israel also severely fail to care for Gaza's resident basic needs, which they should guarantee while the blockade is up. 70% of Gaza population still dependent on outside's aid,. They're completely cut off from the rest of the world by Israel. Israel should stop blocking aids to Gaza.

[QUOTE=hakimhakim;52470863] Even after the flotilla raid, Israel continues to deny Palestine of various type of aids. In 2014 I think, a conference of donors planned to supply Gaza with a ship specialized in supplying electric power. But Israel prohibits that too. The legality of Israel blockade was also contested by at least 6 independent UN human right expert after Palmer report, challenging both the disproportionate suffering it inflicted, and the qualification of Palmer report author, which is politically motivated. All of the previous assessment by UN shows clear disapproval of the blockades, quoting phrases such as: "hopelessly unbalanced," "redundant at best and malicious at worst "unacceptable suffering" and that families were living in "unacceptable, unsustainable conditions" "amount to collective punishment, a violation of international humanitarian law." "The flotilla crisis is the latest symptom of a failed policy. The situation in Gaza is unsustainable and the current policy is unacceptable and counter-productive, and requires a different, more positive strategy. The closure and blockade of the Gaza Strip needs to come to an end. There is now a welcome international consensus on Gaza." Israel should stop blocking aids to Gaza.[/QUOTE] The only reason Gaza is under a blockade is because of Hamas using the resources they get to build tunnels and upgrade their weaponry. Ever since the blockade came to effect the civilian casualities in Israel was reduced significantly and the terror tactics were reduced from suicide bombing, satchel charges and advanced weaponry to knife attacks and home-made guns. You want the blockade gone? Kick Hamas out. Simple.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52470880]The only reason Gaza is under a blockade is because of Hamas using the resources they get to build tunnels and upgrade their weaponry. Ever since the blockade came to effect the civilian casualities in Israel was reduced significantly and the terror tactics were reduced from suicide bombing, satchel charges and advanced weaponry to knife attacks and home-made guns. You want the blockade gone? Kick Hamas out. Simple.[/QUOTE] And yet they are still being bombed. Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor has released a report discussing the Israel’s repetitive destruction of EU-funded projects in Palestine. The report estimated the total value of EU squandered aid money, including development and humanitarian projects, amounts to €65million; €23million were lost during the 2014 assault alone. That demand is a sham. Everybody knows Israel play a significant hand in perpetuating the aggression, hamas or no hamas. The blockade was not motivated by desire for resolution, but that of control. In any case, the blockage was deemed as an exceedingly bad thing by the whole world. It need to stop.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52470880]The only reason Gaza is under a blockade is because of Hamas using the resources they get to build tunnels and upgrade their weaponry. Ever since the blockade came to effect the civilian casualities in Israel was reduced significantly and the terror tactics were reduced from suicide bombing, satchel charges and advanced weaponry to knife attacks and home-made guns. You want the blockade gone? Kick Hamas out. Simple.[/QUOTE] In 2014, while the blockade was active, about 2300 Palestinian civilians (All living in Gaza) died and 17000 were injured. Half a million Palestinians in Gaza were displaced. Nearly all deaths were caused by Israeli ammunition. The poor Israeli citizens also suffered badly. The number of Israeli civilians killed in 2014 is almost uncountable. At least when you're counting on your hands. 12 Israeli civilians died that entire year. There haven't been deadlier years for civilians living in Gaza since the start of the occupation in 1967. There's one thing you just don't seem to understand: Even if the blockade would somehow protect civilian lives, it's illegal. Israel is breaking international humanitarian laws.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52472001]That's, like, your opinion man. page 40-41 page 45 [url]http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf[/url][/QUOTE] No, it literally isn't my opinion. It's breaking international humanitarian laws. The UN might rule it as a legitimate measure, but that doesn't mean it isn't breaking those laws. Article 33 of the 1949 Geneva convention IV specifically bans collective punishments against protected persons, like civilians. [editline]16th July 2017[/editline] Even your source states it literally: "Also the UN Human Rights Council concluded that the blockade was unlawful. The Report of the Human Rights Council Fact Finding Mission received widespread approval from the member states."

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52472190]HRC is trash. Take it from the UN Secretary Generals. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Human_Rights_Council[/url] My source states that Israel is not doing collective punishment and describes in great detail how the naval blockade is legal and appropriate. Are you a lawyer? Why are you disputing a UN judgement on international law? You know, UN is responsible for those laws and their implementation in the first place.[/QUOTE] Do note that your source also talks specifically about the naval blockade and not the blockade as a whole. As an occupying force, it's illegal to deny the civilians basic needs or humanitarian aid.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52472291]So this isn't about Gaza Flotilla raid anymore. Land blockade is debatable, and the report says that it needs to be eased indeed. However, the blockade can't be completely undone as long as Hamas rules Gaza. Israel does not occupy Gaza, by the way.[/QUOTE] It does occupy Gaza. Israel themselves said they pulled out in 2008 (IIRC), but because they have so much direct and indirect power over Gaza, it's still considered an occupation. Israel controls Gaza's borders, waters and airspace. Israel controls the population register too. They literally control who is and who isn't a citizen of Gaza. They also control everything entering or exiting Gaza. Israel has more control over Gaza than most countries have over themselves.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52472001]That's, like, your opinion man. page 40-41 page 45 [url]http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf[/url][/QUOTE] I would avoid using Palmer report as a basis to support the blockade as a whole. Palmer report was done in response to the Flotilla incident. It mostly aimed to clear up the souring relationship between Israel and Turkey. You could say it's a politically charged report, not very neutral. It's even very limited in scope. All of prior and post assessment done by UN, its humanitarian group, and various individual countries arrived at the consensus that the blockade as illegal, unjustifiable, and inhumane. Israel follows the guideline for making the blockade 'barrier' itself, but fail miserably to be adequately responsible to the humans inside the blockade, which they should guarantee. If Israel is not up to the task, then they should hand over the task to other parties, such as UN, or at least Turkey, since they are in close approximation. But it was not done because Israel wanted to maintain control/occupy the area. Even if you want to take the Palmer Report itself, one of its stated conclusion; [QUOTE]We have reached the view that the naval blockade was proportionate in the [B]circumstances[/B] (flotilla incident). While we are unable to conclude that the [B]combined effects of the naval blockade and the crossings policy rendered the naval blockade disproportionate[/B], we can make the policy judgment that the procedures applied by Israel in relation to land access to Gaza are [B]unsustainable and need to be changed.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=hakimhakim;52472548]I would avoid using Palmer report as a basis to support the blockade as a whole. Palmer report was done in response to the Flotilla incident. It mostly aimed to clear up the souring relationship between Israel and Turkey. You could say it's a politically charged report, not very neutral. It's even very limited in scope. All of prior assessment done by UN, its humanitarian group, and various individual countries arrived at the consensus that the blockade as illegal, unjustifiable, and inhumane. Even if you want to take the Palmer Report itself, one of its stated conclusion; We have reached the view that the naval blockade was proportionate in the [B]circumstances[/B] (flotilla incident). While we are unable to conclude that the [B]combined effects of the naval blockade and the crossings policy rendered the naval blockade disproportionate[/B], we can make the policy judgment that the procedures applied by Israel in relation to land access to Gaza are [B]unsustainable[/B] and need to be changed.[/QUOTE] Well guess what, it ain't gonna change. Standing down to terrorists' demands and removing the blockade is basically surrendering to a bunch of cowards who hide behind civilians. We will NEVER trust hamas with the lives of our citizens. I'm starting to get curious how you dont even point out Hamas' crimes against the Palestinians.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52472603]Well guess what, it ain't gonna change. Standing down to terrorists' demands and removing the blockade is basically surrendering to a bunch of cowards who hide behind civilians. We will NEVER trust hamas with the lives of our citizens. I'm starting to get curious how you dont even point out Hamas' crimes against the Palestinians.[/QUOTE] Because we're talking about how Israel is depriving the people in Gaza. '[I]Cowards who hide behind civilans[/I]' eh? Reminds me of a certain rogue nation that brings in millions of civilians to a troubled region to hide behind them, and call out 'terrorist' when the original settlers fight back.

[QUOTE=hakimhakim;52472628]Because we're talking about how Israel is depriving the people in Gaza. '[I]Cowards who hide behind civilans[/I]' eh? Reminds me of a certain rogue nation that brings in millions of civilians to a troubled region to hide behind them, and call out 'terrorist' when the original settlers fight back.[/QUOTE] Oh please, spare me the "it wuz muh land!!" argument. You've had your chance for coexistence and you spit on it. For 60 fucking years you cried about it and turned a blind eye to all the arab nations mistreating palestinians as refugees. Lets be honest here, you don't even care about the Palestinians. You're just using them as an excuse to justify your reasons for removing Israel from the map.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52472655]Oh please, spare me the "it wuz muh land!!" argument. You've had your chance for coexistence and you spit on it. For 60 fucking years you cried about it and turned a blind eye to all the arab nations mistreating palestinians as refugees. Lets be honest here, you don't even care about the Palestinians. You're just using them as an excuse to justify your reasons for removing Israel from the map.[/QUOTE] im pretty sure he's not even 60 years old, mate

[QUOTE=RzDat;52472655]Oh please, spare me the "it wuz muh land!!" argument. You've had your chance for coexistence and you spit on it. For 60 fucking years you cried about it and turned a blind eye to all the arab nations mistreating palestinians as refugees. Lets be honest here, you don't even care about the Palestinians. You're just using them as an excuse to justify your reasons for removing Israel from the map.[/QUOTE] [I]Well if we wanted to remove you from the map, we'd have let the nazi's kill all of you 70 years ago.[/I] [editline]16th July 2017[/editline] There's a difference between mistreating and straight up defending the shooting of farmers.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52473925][I]Well if we wanted to remove you from the map, we'd have let the nazi's kill all of you 70 years ago.[/I] [editline]16th July 2017[/editline] There's a difference between mistreating and straight up defending the shooting of farmers.[/QUOTE] The people against the existence of Israel today are nowhere near the same people who stopped the Nazis.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52473925][I]Well if we wanted to remove you from the map, we'd have let the nazi's kill all of you 70 years ago.[/I] [editline]16th July 2017[/editline] There's a difference between mistreating and straight up defending the shooting of farmers.[/QUOTE] The Allies in WW2 didn't really care about the Holocaust going on, otherwise they would have bombed the train tracks to concentration camps. They also rejected Jewish refugees from entering Allied countries, in some cases sending them back. Zionism is older than WW2 and Jewish/Palestinian conflict is older than WW2, your example is a false equivalence. These "farmers" build rockets that they shoot at Israeli civilians, they carry out terror attacks against Israeli civilians, and they commit crimes against the state of Israel. Most Palestinians are not like this but the Palestinian culture glorifies terrorism instead of compromising for peace. The Palestinians left during the Independence war because the Arab coalition urged them to leave. The Palestinians also expected the Arabs to massacre all the Jews if the Arab side won and they assumed that if the Jews won, the Jews would massacre the Palestinians. It didn't work out that way. Again, do some research on how the Palestinians in the Gulf states live. They are denied citizenship and are discriminated against.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52474312]The Allies in WW2 didn't really care about the Holocaust going on, otherwise they would have bombed the train tracks to concentration camps. They also rejected Jewish refugees from entering Allied countries, in some cases sending them back. Zionism is older than WW2 and Jewish/Palestinian conflict is older than WW2, your example is a false equivalence. These "farmers" build rockets that they shoot at Israeli civilians, they carry out terror attacks against Israeli civilians, and they commit crimes against the state of Israel. Most Palestinians are not like this but the Palestinian culture glorifies terrorism instead of compromising for peace. The Palestinians left during the Independence war because the Arab coalition urged them to leave. The Palestinians also expected the Arabs to massacre all the Jews if the Arab side won and they assumed that if the Jews won, the Jews would massacre the Palestinians. It didn't work out that way. Again, do some research on how the Palestinians in the Gulf states live. They are denied citizenship and are discriminated against.[/QUOTE] "These "farmers" build rockets that they shoot at Israeli civilians, they carry out terror attacks against Israeli civilians, and they commit crimes against the state of Israel. Most Palestinians are not like this but the Palestinian culture glorifies terrorism instead of compromising for peace." No, that's not the case. I am talking about the farmers that are allowed to come within range of 100 meters from the borders (unlike normal civilians which can't get closer than 300m), but have often been shot and killed. "The Allies in WW2 didn't really care about the Holocaust going on, otherwise they would have bombed the train tracks to concentration camps. They also rejected Jewish refugees from entering Allied countries, in some cases sending them back." Ah right so my grandparents didn't actually risk their lives hiding and saving the lives of jews, it's all a lie. Thanks, really nice to hear Israel doesn't even appreciate how many civilians died trying to save jews during WW2. Seems like you never really got their idea though. They risked themselves to protect innocent people, but here you are defending 2.2k civilian deaths to avenge the death of 12 Israeli citizens. Per year.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52475166]"These "farmers" build rockets that they shoot at Israeli civilians, they carry out terror attacks against Israeli civilians, and they commit crimes against the state of Israel. Most Palestinians are not like this but the Palestinian culture glorifies terrorism instead of compromising for peace." No, that's not the case. I am talking about the farmers that are allowed to come within range of 100 meters from the borders (unlike normal civilians which can't get closer than 300m), but have often been shot and killed. "The Allies in WW2 didn't really care about the Holocaust going on, otherwise they would have bombed the train tracks to concentration camps. They also rejected Jewish refugees from entering Allied countries, in some cases sending them back." Ah right so my grandparents didn't actually risk their lives hiding and saving the lives of jews, it's all a lie. Thanks, really nice to hear Israel doesn't even appreciate how many civilians died trying to save jews during WW2. Seems like you never really got their idea though. They risked themselves to protect innocent people, but here you are defending 2.2k civilian deaths to avenge the death of 12 Israeli citizens. Per year.[/QUOTE] The people who hid Jews during ww2 were largely not part of the Allied military efforts and were not part of the Allied governments that sent refugees away. If you want to see Israel's appreciation of the people who helped save Jews from the Holocaust, go to Yad Vashem and see the trees planted there in honor of each of them. Israel also gives out the Righteous Among the Nations award for people who helped Jews during the holocaust. First, there wouldn't even need to be a wall if not for Hamas's terrorism. Second, the farmers should know better than to get closer than 100m. If they are shot, it's because they acted suspiciously or got too close. Remember that Hamas's soldiers dress up like civilians, what's to stop a "farmer" from suddenly starting to shoot at IDF soldiers? Israel is not killing civilians for the lulz or for revenge. They are destroying rockets with the side effect of killing civilians. No one wants to kill Palestinian civilians but sometimes they die because they didn't listen to warnings or they wandered too close to a place that was going to be bombed. If Hamas was to suddenly drop all their weapons and destroy all their rockets with definite proof, there would not be any more civilians that would be killed by the IDF because there would be no need to bomb Gaza. Israel wants peace and you can't have peace when your next door neighbor talks about how they want to genocide the Jews and push you into the sea.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52475166] No, that's not the case. I am talking about the farmers that are allowed to come within range of 100 meters from the borders [b](unlike normal civilians which can't get closer than 300m), but have often been shot and killed.[/b][/QUOTE] Caught you lying. Big time. You're just making stuff up. I know exactly what the army does when a civilian/hamas soldier/farmer comes close to the border. And none of it even comes close to what you've said unless they see clear motivation to cut or blow up the fence. How do i know? Im right here. You should stop spreading this misinformation coming out of your imagination.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52475214]Second, the farmers should know better than to get closer than 100m. If they are shot, it's because they acted suspiciously or got too close. Remember that Hamas's soldiers dress up like civilians, what's to stop a "farmer" from suddenly starting to shoot at IDF soldiers?[/quote] Getting some wickedplayer vibes here. [Quote]Israel is not killing civilians for the lulz or for revenge. They are destroying rockets with the side effect of killing civilians. No one wants to kill Palestinian civilians but sometimes they die because they didn't listen to warnings or they wandered too close to a place that was going to be bombed. If Hamas was to suddenly drop all their weapons and destroy all their rockets with definite proof, there would not be any more civilians that would be killed by the IDF because there would be no need to bomb Gaza. Israel wants peace and you can't have peace when your next door neighbor talks about how they want to genocide the Jews and push you into the sea.[/QUOTE] So no comment about how disproportionate the death tolls are? Isn't there a point beyond which innocent Palestinian lives start mattering comparably to innocent Israeli lives?

[QUOTE=_Axel;52475250]Getting some wickedplayer vibes here. So no comment about how disproportionate the death tolls are? Isn't there a point beyond which innocent Palestinian lives start mattering comparably to Israeli lives?[/QUOTE] I've already addressed it earlier in the thread. In short: The reason why more Palestinians are killed is because Hamas uses them as human shields and dress up as civilians. How do you tell a terrorist from a civilian when the terrorist is dressed up like a civilian? Mistakes will be made and civilians will die. Israel is actually able to protect their citizens by shooting down Hamas rockets. The death tolls are low because Israel works to protect their citizens while Hamas works to exploit their citizens and use them as human shields.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52475214]The people who hid Jews during ww2 were largely not part of the Allied military efforts and were not part of the Allied governments that sent refugees away. If you want to see Israel's appreciation of the people who helped save Jews from the Holocaust, go to Yad Vashem and see the trees planted there in honor of each of them. Israel also gives out the Righteous Among the Nations award for people who helped Jews during the holocaust. First, there wouldn't even need to be a wall if not for Hamas's terrorism. Second, the farmers should know better than to get closer than 100m. If they are shot, it's because they acted suspiciously or got too close. Remember that Hamas's soldiers dress up like civilians, what's to stop a "farmer" from suddenly starting to shoot at IDF soldiers? Israel is not killing civilians for the lulz or for revenge. They are destroying rockets with the side effect of killing civilians. No one wants to kill Palestinian civilians but sometimes they die because they didn't listen to warnings or they wandered too close to a place that was going to be bombed. If Hamas was to suddenly drop all their weapons and destroy all their rockets with definite proof, there would not be any more civilians that would be killed by the IDF because there would be no need to bomb Gaza. Israel wants peace and you can't have peace when your next door neighbor talks about how they want to genocide the Jews and push you into the sea.[/QUOTE] Farmers are allowed to get up to 100 meters. Normal civilians aren't. Yet there are a lot of farmers that have been shot and killed even though they haven't gone within 100 meters of the borders. And even if they did get within that range, they should be warned first.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52475286]I've already addressed it earlier in the thread. In short: The reason why more Palestinians are killed is because Hamas uses them as human shields and dress up as civilians. How do you tell a terrorist from a civilian when the terrorist is dressed up like a civilian? Mistakes will be made and civilians will die. Israel is actually able to protect their citizens by shooting down Hamas rockets. The death tolls are low because Israel works to protect their citizens while Hamas works to exploit their citizens and use them as human shields.[/QUOTE] Doesn't address my point. Would you kill 10 innocent Palestinians to save 1 innocent Israeli? 100 for one ? A million for one? At some point you have to consider whether decreasing the risk of Israeli death is worth increasing the risk of Palestinian death. Evidently the precautions taken to prevent Palestinian casualties aren't sufficient to reduce that risk to zero. Shouldn't that risk be a decision factor as well?

[QUOTE=RzDat;52475237]Caught you lying. Big time. You're just making stuff up. I know exactly what the army does when a civilian/hamas soldier/farmer comes close to the border. And none of it even comes close to what you've said unless they see clear motivation to cut or blow up the fence. How do i know? Im right here. You should stop spreading this misinformation coming out of your imagination.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/02/palestinian-farmers-endure-constant-war-gaza-150224054058539.html"]No, I am not lying.[/URL] There are many news articles about farmers being shot. Fuck, there's even sources that Israeli planes are dropping pesticides on farmlands. And all that while over 80% of the population of Gaza if food insecure. [editline]16th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Svinnik;52475286]I've already addressed it earlier in the thread. In short: The reason why more Palestinians are killed is because Hamas uses them as human shields and dress up as civilians. How do you tell a terrorist from a civilian when the terrorist is dressed up like a civilian? Mistakes will be made and civilians will die. Israel is actually able to protect their citizens by shooting down Hamas rockets. The death tolls are low because Israel works to protect their citizens while Hamas works to exploit their citizens and use them as human shields.[/QUOTE] Even if Hamas was using civilians as human shields, Israel would not be allowed to fire at them. Israel is obliged to protect the civilians of Gaza.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52475323][URL="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/02/palestinian-farmers-endure-constant-war-gaza-150224054058539.html"]No, I am not lying.[/URL] There are many news articles about farmers being shot. Fuck, there's even sources that Israeli planes are dropping pesticides on farmlands. And all that while over 80% of the population of Gaza if food insecure.[/QUOTE] You sure lied about civilians not allowed to get 300 meters near the fence and get shot in the process,dont try to change the subject. Whats even more absurd is that you're using Al jazeera as a source. Even i call out bias in extremist settler newspapers yet you think Al Jazeera is legitimate? It's like telling American soldiers who serve in the middle east that the base THEY'RE CURRENTLY IN was attacked. Congratulations, you won first place in this year's biggest bullshitter. Guess i have no word with a Hamas sympathizer.

[QUOTE=RzDat;52475371]You sure lied about civilians not allowed to get 300 meters near the fence and get shot in the process,dont try to change the subject. Whats even more absurd is that you're using Al jazeera as a source. Even i call out bias in extremist settler newspapers yet you think Al Jazeera is legitimate? It's like telling American soldiers who serve in the middle east that the base THEY'RE CURRENTLY IN was attacked. Congratulations, you won first place in this year's biggest bullshitter. Guess i have no word with a Hamas sympathizer.[/QUOTE] How did I lie about civilians not being allowed to get within 300 meters near the borders? It's the buffer zone. Al Jazeera is still very factual whether you like it or not. You are being very childish. You refuse to listen to me and brand me as a Hamas sympathizer because you don't have any counter-arguments.