Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478566]If you don't blow up the rockets, what do you do? Just sit around and wait for it to be fired at you so Iron dome can probably take it down? How do you know there's no house full of enemy combatants? You suddenly know more about Hamas operations than the Mossad which has spies in Gaza?[/QUOTE] Because if even half of the houses blown up by the IDF had a single terrorist in them, the number of killed Hamas terrorists would skyrocket.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478566]If you don't blow up the rockets, what do you do? Just sit around and wait for it to be fired at you so Iron dome can probably take it down?[/QUOTE] I suppose that depends on the situation. What's the likelihood of iron dome failing such interception leading to Israeli casualties? [editline]17th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52478586]Because if even half of the houses blown up by the IDF had a single terrorist in them, the number of killed Hamas terrorists would skyrocket.[/QUOTE] I mean, Israel's safety protocols designed to protect civilians probably help terrorists get away as well, so that's not necessarily true.

[QUOTE=_Axel;52478588]I suppose that depends on the situation. What's the likelihood of iron dome failing such interception leading to Israeli casualties?[/QUOTE] 10-20 percent with 1 rocket. Hamas shoots 15 at once and Hezbollah can shoot around 1000 at once. Gambling with the lives of your citizens on a 80-90 percent chance per rocket is unacceptable considering the amount of rockets being fired. [editline]17th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52478586]Because if even half of the houses blown up by the IDF had a single terrorist in them, the number of killed Hamas terrorists would skyrocket.[/QUOTE] The number of killed hamas terrorists is pretty high regardless.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478596]10-20 percent with 1 rocket. Hamas shoots 15 at once and Hezbollah can shoot around 1000 at once. Gambling with the lives of your citizens on a 80-90 percent chance per rocket is unacceptable considering the amount of rockets being fired.[/QUOTE] How many are fired on average in a situation where the launcher isn't destroyed?

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;52477305] You try that. You try spending a few days diving out of your car when you hear the siren and looking for shelter in a bus stop. You try driving past burnt out parked cars wondering if your home is still there when you arrive. You try keeping calm when your coworker shows you the ball bearings he collected on his front porch after tonight's rocket hit his front yard again. Then you tell me how far you would be able to go to make it stop.[/QUOTE] Could you spin this around but with white phosphorus/flechettes instead of ball bearings?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478596]10-20 percent with 1 rocket. Hamas shoots 15 at once and Hezbollah can shoot around 1000 at once. Gambling with the lives of your citizens on a 80-90 percent chance per rocket is unacceptable considering the amount of rockets being fired. [editline]17th July 2017[/editline] The number of killed hamas terrorists is pretty high regardless.[/QUOTE] 5000 attacks in 2014. 700 Hamas militants were killed. Almost 3 times as many civilians were killed.

[QUOTE=Viper_;52478627]Could you spin this around but with white phosphorus/flechettes instead of ball bearings?[/QUOTE] Those were used against Hamas during a war, completely different context. The Red Cross said that Israel's use of white phosphorus was legal and the IDF stopped using it over PR concerns. Flechette munitions are legal under international law. Scumbunny was talking about rockets that are intended to hit civilians and intended to kill civilians during a time of peace/ceasefire. [editline]17th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52478637]5000 attacks in 2014. 700 Hamas militants were killed. Almost 3 times as many civilians were killed.[/QUOTE] Where are you getting your numbers from?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478663]Those were used against Hamas during a war, completely different context. The Red Cross said that Israel's use of white phosphorus was legal and the IDF stopped using it over PR concerns. Flechette munitions are legal under international law. Scumbunny was talking about rockets that are intended to hit civilians and intended to kill civilians during a time of peace/ceasefire. [editline]17th July 2017[/editline] Where are you getting your numbers from?[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/israel-kills-more-palestinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967"]The Guardian[/URL], [URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-jihad-121-of-our-fighters-killed-in-gaza/"]Times of Israel[/URL] and [URL="http://mfa.gov.il/ProtectiveEdge/Documents/PalestinianFatalities.pdf"]the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs[/URL]. Of the +-2300 people killed, 70% was a civilian.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52478737][URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/israel-kills-more-palestinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967"]The Guardian[/URL], [URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-jihad-121-of-our-fighters-killed-in-gaza/"]Times of Israel[/URL] and [URL="http://mfa.gov.il/ProtectiveEdge/Documents/PalestinianFatalities.pdf"]the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs[/URL]. Of the +-2300 people killed, 70% was a civilian.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]As discussed below, the IDF’s preliminary analysis has determined that 2,125 Palestinians were killed during the 2014 Gaza Conflict. Of these fatalities, the IDF estimates that at least 936 (44% of the total) were actually militants and that 761 (36% of the total) were civilians; efforts are still underway to classify the additional 428 (20% of the total), all males aged 16-50.[/QUOTE] How are you getting 70 percent? The only people who say 70% are Hamas: [QUOTE] According to Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry numbers, 2,143 Palestinians — over 70% of them civilians — were killed, including nearly 500 children[/QUOTE] Hamas clearly attempted to conceal fighters as civilians: [QUOTE]Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from the Gaza Strip or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don’t forget to always add “innocent civilian” or innocent citizen in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip…. Do not publish photos of military commanders. Do not mention their names in public, and do not praise their achievements in conversations with foreign friends. [/QUOTE] Did you bother reading the last source? It clearly lays out the Israeli claims about why Israel doesn't trust the Hamas numbers.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478755]How are you getting 70 percent? The only people who say 70% are Hamas: Hamas clearly attempted to conceal fighters as civilians: Did you bother reading the last source? It clearly lays out the Israeli claims about why Israel doesn't trust the Hamas numbers.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]For example, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (“OCHA”) has estimated that approximately 67% of Palestinians fatalities were civilians (see [url]http://www.ochaopt.org/content.aspx?id=1010361[/url]). This number has come down slightly from OCHA’s initial estimate of 69%.[/QUOTE] The last part you quoted is mostly Israel's way of saying they don't believe the statistics.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52478780]The last part you quoted is mostly Israel's way of saying they don't believe the statistics.[/QUOTE] The entire last source that you posted is Israel's way of saying that they don't believe the statistics with proof in section C and then outlining their way of getting an accurate number in section D. Read over it instead of blindly pointing to it as a source. What you just quoted was a footnote to this: [QUOTE]Some critics of Israel’s conduct during the 2014 Gaza Conflict have pointed to certain estimates of civilian fatalities published by the United Nations (“U.N.”) and several nongovernmental organisations (“NGOs”).3 However, these estimates are highly suspect, because they are primarily based on daily fatality lists issued by the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry — lists that, among many other significant deficiencies, do not identify whether the deceased was a militant.[/QUOTE] Saying yes, the UN says this but it's suspect thanks to Hamas's not saying if a person was a fighter or not.

[QUOTE=Viper_;52478627]Could you spin this around but with white phosphorus/flechettes instead of ball bearings?[/QUOTE] If it wasn't clear I'm talking from personal experience. Not from Gaza rocket attacks in the south, but from Hezbollah rocket attacks in the north, if it makes any difference.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478800]The entire last source that you posted is Israel's way of saying that they don't believe the statistics with proof in section C and then outlining their way of getting an accurate number in section D. Read over it instead of blindly pointing to it as a source. What you just quoted was a footnote to this: Saying yes, the UN says this but it's suspect thanks to Hamas's not saying if a person was a fighter or not.[/QUOTE] Israel once again doesn't want to admit they've been killing civilians again.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52478835]Israel once again doesn't want to admit they've been killing civilians again.[/QUOTE] holy shit the mental gymnastics required for this Read the document, they admit they killed civilians but say that they have intelligence that shows that hamas inflates the number of civilians, going to such lengths as to: [QUOTE]Cross-checking the identities of men aged 16 to 50 in Israeli intelligence community databases to check for involvement in hostilities; Matching names of the deceased to information that documented operational events (in particular, incriminating evidence of rocket launching or preparation); Continually updating information regarding fatalities in accordance with information that corroborates or refutes the degree of affiliation with armed groups and involvement in hostilities.[/QUOTE] Amazing how you cite a document as supporting you, get told that the document doesn't support you at all, and then say oh this document is not reliable. Which is it? You were confident enough about this document to use it as a source when it was supporting you but when it's not, it's suddenly worthless?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52478874]holy shit the mental gymnastics required for this Read the document, they admit they killed civilians but say that they have intelligence that shows that hamas inflates the number of civilians, going to such lengths as to: Amazing how you cite a document as supporting you, get told that the document doesn't support you at all, and then say oh this document is not reliable. Which is it? You were confident enough about this document to use it as a source when it was supporting you but when it's not, it's suddenly worthless?[/QUOTE] I am most definitely confident about the numbers in terms of total casualties in that document. But don't you think it's interesting how Israel themselves keeps inflating the number of terrorists killed, contradicting other sources.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52478945]I am most definitely confident about the numbers in terms of total casualties in that document. But don't you think it's interesting how Israel themselves keeps inflating the number of terrorists killed, contradicting other sources.[/QUOTE] They have deeper infiltration of Gaza than the UN and know better than the UN. It's not inflating, it's deflating the numbers that Hamas releases. please try to read your own sources

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52479169]They have deeper infiltration of Gaza than the UN and know better than the UN. It's not inflating, it's deflating the numbers that Hamas releases. please try to read your own sources[/QUOTE] And of course we trust the country that killed them over the UN. The same country that sprays pesticide over Gazan farmland for no reason. The same country shooting farmers on their own lands. The country that has been warned of [URL="https://docs.unocha.org/sites/dms/Documents/USG%20Valerie%20Amos%20Statement%20on%20Gaza%2013Jun12.pdf"]breaking international humanitarian laws and hasn't done a thing about it since.[/URL]

[QUOTE=joost1120;52479245]And of course we trust the country that killed them over the UN. The same country that sprays pesticide over Gazan farmland for no reason. The same country shooting farmers on their own lands. The country that has been warned of [URL="https://docs.unocha.org/sites/dms/Documents/USG%20Valerie%20Amos%20Statement%20on%20Gaza%2013Jun12.pdf"]breaking international humanitarian laws and hasn't done a thing about it since.[/URL][/QUOTE] UN's own Palmer report concluded that the blockade was legal. Israeli soldiers do not have the right to randomly kill Palestinians despite what you might think, there's actually an ROE in Israel. I trust Israel over the UN because the UN uses Hamas's numbers as a source when it's clear that Hamas's numbers are bullshit.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52479311]UN's own Palmer report concluded that the blockade was legal. Israeli soldiers do not have the right to randomly kill Palestinians despite what you might think, there's actually an ROE in Israel. I trust Israel over the UN because the UN uses Hamas's numbers as a source when it's clear that Hamas's numbers are bullshit.[/QUOTE] The UN didn't use Hamas' numbers. They concluded their own research and came to their own conclusion. Which report are you talking about? The one about the 2011 flotilla incident? Because that specifically talks about the naval blockade. It also says Israel should slowly lift it. Also, there's other reports that deem the blockade unlawful. [URL="http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf"]About the flotilla incident[/URL] and [URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/10306193"]by the International Committee of the Red Cross [/URL]. The blockade is imposing a collective punishment on civilians. That alone is breaking international humanitarian law.

Trusting Israel over the UN is Trump style paranoia