Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52432775]Right, Hamas are firing rockets filled with love and joy towards Israeli civilians now?[/QUOTE] No they aren't, but does that mean you should indiscriminately bomb civilians. It's like there's a shooter at a mall, so you decide to bring in artillery to level the place.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52432804]No they aren't, but does that mean you should indiscriminately bomb civilians. It's like there's a shooter at a mall, so you decide to bring in artillery to level the place.[/QUOTE] They aren't doing that though. They use surgical strikes after warning civilians to vacate the area. I've mentioned this before.

Did you not see that chart a few posts above? Also, have you seen those bombings? Surgical strikes my ass, they level the building. Safe to say anybody living nearby is suffering heavily.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52432496]Israel has to bomb the town in order to protect themselves from further rockets/mortars being shot at Israel. It's a very precise surgical strike, its not like they are destroying a whole town for shits and giggles?[/QUOTE] All retaliatory strikes do is further cement the rationale these people use for taking up arms against Israel, especially when there are civilian casualties on top of damage to infrastructure. Which in turn, "justifies" further retaliatory strikes - the violence its self distracts everyone from one of the biggest reasons it's happening in the first place, that being Israel's expansion. In some peoples' minds, it's another justification. The violence doesn't end until both sides are able to co-exist, as unrealistic as that looks from here. Either that, or said expansion continues until there isn't a Palestine to speak of, and that wouldn't stop Hamas and Hezbollah from continuing such attacks from Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Svinnik;52432548]Yes, it turns out that being stuck in one of the most densely populated areas in the world with a government who is willing to use you as a human shield will lead to you being more likely to be killed. I've already talked about this but the average civilian to enemy combatant death ratio for the US in Iraq/Afganistan was ~7:1. 7 civilians died for every 1 Taliban/insurgent fighter killed. In the last Gaza war, the ratio was around 1:1 or 2:3, depending on who you believed. Civilians will die in war but Israel minimizes civilian deaths. I've outlined how Israel tries to prevent civilian deaths. Google it if you don't believe me.[/QUOTE] There's the death caused by direct action, but then there's the suffering (And further death) resulting from infrastructural damage, destruction of homes, etc. 1:1 or 2:3 are nice statistics on paper, in a vacuum. But it doesn't tell the whole story by a long shot.

[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;52432990]All retaliatory strikes do is further cement the rationale these people use for taking up arms against Israel, especially when there are civilian casualties on top of damage to infrastructure. Which in turn, "justifies" further retaliatory strikes - the violence its self distracts everyone from one of the biggest reasons it's happening in the first place, that being Israel's expansion. In some peoples' minds, it's another justification. The violence doesn't end until both sides are able to co-exist, as unrealistic as that looks from here. Either that, or said expansion continues until there isn't a Palestine to speak of, and that wouldn't stop Hamas and Hezbollah from continuing such attacks from Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] There's the death caused by direct action, but then there's the suffering (And further death) resulting from infrastructural damage, destruction of homes, etc. 1:1 or 2:3 are nice statistics on paper, in a vacuum. But it doesn't tell the whole story by a long shot.[/QUOTE] Okay, so Israel shouldn't defend itself at all, right? You have no idea what's going on in the West Bank if you think that Israel will expand until there's no more Palestine and if you think that the war in Gaza is a sign of Israeli expansionism then you're being plain ignorant. Israel is perfectly willing to co exist, Hamas keeps on starting shit, the PLO keeps on sponsoring terrorism. [editline]4th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52432989]Did you not see that chart a few posts above? Also, have you seen those bombings? Surgical strikes my ass, they level the building. Safe to say anybody living nearby is suffering heavily.[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;69icTMgIjlw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69icTMgIjlw[/video] The building next to the destroyed building suffers only minor damage. I've already responded to that chart.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52433020]Okay, so Israel shouldn't defend itself at all, right? You have no idea what's going on in the West Bank if you think that Israel will expand until there's no more Palestine and if you think that the war in Gaza is a sign of Israeli expansionism then you're being plain ignorant. Israel is perfectly willing to co exist, Hamas keeps on starting shit, the PLO keeps on sponsoring terrorism. [editline]4th July 2017[/editline] [video=youtube;69icTMgIjlw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69icTMgIjlw[/video] The building next to the destroyed building suffers only minor damage. I've already responded to that chart.[/QUOTE] You've already responded to the chart by saying that is how things go. It's the civilians fault for living in an area where terrorists operate. Which is completely bollocks. The terrorists aren't even the ones that kill them, it's Israel's artillery. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] Also, Israel doesn't seem that willing to coexist. They forcibly took 60% of Palestine.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52433046]You've already responded to the chart by saying that is how things go. It's the civilians fault for living in an area where terrorists operate. Which is completely bollocks. The terrorists aren't even the ones that kill them, it's Israel's artillery. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] Also, Israel doesn't seem that willing to coexist. They forcibly took 60% of Palestine.[/QUOTE] When did we take 60 percent of Palestine? If you're talking about 67, that land belonged to Egypt and Jordan. The terrorists use civilians as a human shield to stop Israel from bombing military positions and Hamas kills people all the time. The people of Gaza voted in Hamas, knowing that Hamas's goal was to declare jihad against Israel. They knowingly voted in a party that was going to declare war on the Jews and cause suffering to regular people.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52433077]When did we take 60 percent of Palestine? If you're talking about 67, that land belonged to Egypt and Jordan. The terrorists use civilians as a human shield to stop Israel from bombing military positions and Hamas kills people all the time. The people of Gaza voted in Hamas, knowing that Hamas's goal was to declare jihad against Israel. They knowingly voted in a party that was going to declare war on the Jews and cause suffering to regular people.[/QUOTE] I'm talking about when Palestine did not agree to give Israel any land, so Israel marched up with their troops and tanks and took their promised land and around 60% of what Palestine was supposed to have. Fairly sure it happened in 48. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] The problem with politic parties in Palestine is that you can't vote pro-Israel. It'd be like a jew in Poland 1938 voting for a Nazi party. Israel has displaced Palestinian civilians before, and nobody wants to repeat it.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52433098]I'm talking about when Palestine did not agree to give Israel any land, so Israel marched up with their troops and tanks and took their promised land and around 60% of what Palestine was supposed to have. Fairly sure it happened in 48. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] The problem with politic parties in Palestine is that you can't vote pro-Israel. It'd be like a jew in Poland 1938 voting for a Nazi party. Israel has displaced Palestinian civilians before, and nobody wants to repeat it.[/QUOTE] Who told you this nonsense? Your local BDS news stand? This is one of the most biased posts i've read in this thread. And you're ""fairly"" sure it happened in 48'? right then... [Quote]Also, Israel doesn't seem that willing to coexist. They forcibly took 60% of Palestine.[/quote] Well at least now i understand you know jack shit. Why even bother arguing with natives of the region when you know nothing?

[QUOTE=joost1120;52433098]I'm talking about when Palestine did not agree to give Israel any land, so Israel marched up with their troops and tanks and took their promised land and around 60% of what Palestine was supposed to have. Fairly sure it happened in 48. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] The problem with politic parties in Palestine is that you can't vote pro-Israel. It'd be like a jew in Poland 1938 voting for a Nazi party. Israel has displaced Palestinian civilians before, and nobody wants to repeat it.[/QUOTE] There was no Palestine at the time, it was a loose organization of Palestinians who wanted an Arab state, not a specifically Palestinian state. This organization refused the Palestine Partition plan. Once that was refused and the British ended their mandate, it was free game. Israel claimed some land, Egypt claimed some land, and Jordan claimed some land. If you care so much about the Palestinians, why not get upset at Jordan for not giving the West Bank to Palestine? Also, comparing Israel to the Nazis is ignorant. Israel gives Palestinian citizens of Israel equal rights and has a standing offer to any Palestinian who lives in East Jerusalem that they can claim Israeli citizenship whenever they want. Did the Nazis ever do that? Israeli companies that are set up in the West bank pay way more than Palestinian companies that work in the West Bank, offer better conditions and better benefits, and far safer work.

[QUOTE=archangel125;52432317]The Nazis stole the property of Jews and pushed them into ghettos with excuses every bit as ridiculous. Nothing to see here, folks. Just history repeating itself.[/QUOTE] Aaaand theres Godwins law. You gotta be pretty delusional if you start comparing the Israelis to Nazis lol. Maybe you can compare the two when Israel starts setting up ovens and gas chambers. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=joost1120;52433046]You've already responded to the chart by saying that is how things go. It's the civilians fault for living in an area where terrorists operate. Which is completely bollocks. The terrorists aren't even the ones that kill them, it's Israel's artillery. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] Also, Israel doesn't seem that willing to coexist. They forcibly took 60% of Palestine.[/QUOTE] You realize that when Israel performs a strike like that, its not to just knock down houses terrorist might be in, right? Theyre generally targeting munitions storage with those strikes. They spend a long time gathering intel on those buildings, and they even call the residents hours ahead of time so they can safely evacuate. Even then, its not like theyre dropping tall boys in cramped neighborhoods. Theyre using small munitions that barely take out a single building. Bitch all you want about Israel bombing, but dont pretend theyre not cautious of civilian casualties.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52433574]Aaaand theres Godwins law. You gotta be pretty delusional if you start comparing the Israelis to Nazis lol. Maybe you can compare the two when Israel starts setting up ovens and gas chambers. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] You realize that when Israel performs a strike like that, its not to just knock down houses terrorist might be in, right? Theyre generally targeting munitions storage with those strikes. They spend a long time gathering intel on those buildings, and they even call the residents hours ahead of time so they can safely evacuate. Even then, its not like theyre dropping tall boys in cramped neighborhoods. Theyre using small munitions that barely take out a single building. Bitch all you want about Israel bombing, but dont pretend theyre not cautious of civilian casualties.[/QUOTE] "Israel kills a massively disproportionate amount of Palestinian citizens, but at least they're [i]cautious[/i] about it!"

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52433574]Aaaand theres Godwins law. You gotta be pretty delusional if you start comparing the Israelis to Nazis lol. Maybe you can compare the two when Israel starts setting up ovens and gas chambers. [/QUOTE] Brushing something off using an idiotic internet law doesn't pass in an actual debate, especially considering how what Israel is doing is actually comparable to Nazi Germany's [I]Lebensraum[/I] policies.

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;52433840]Brushing something off using an idiotic internet law doesn't pass in an actual debate, especially considering how what Israel is doing is actually comparable to Nazi Germany's [I]Lebensraum[/I] policies.[/QUOTE] Once again, there are perfectly good reasons to criticize Israel's treatment of the Palestinians without turning to dishonest bullshit like that. Israel doesn't need "living room". If you actually bother to look at history, Israel has returned the entire Sinai peninsula (an area significantly larger than the current state of Israel) as part of the peace treaty with Egypt, returned land to Jordan as part of the peace treaty with them, unilaterally pulled out of the occupied southern Lebanon and then from the entire Gaza strip, tearing down all settlements there and moving out all settlers. Israel has also offered most if not all of the West Bank to the Palestinians up to and including East Jerusalem in various peace treaty offers dating back from the Oslo accords in the 90's all the way to the [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.794292"]most recent Obama's peace plan[/URL], all of which were rejected for various reasons by the Palestinians. Israel even offered to return the Golan Heights to Syria back when a treaty with them seemed viable. Israel isn't trying to grow. There is an undeniable issue with some radical settlers trying to take over Palestinian lands, usually illegally and against even the current (and most settler friendly ever) government wishes. Just look up the whole [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amona,_Mateh_Binyamin"]Amona[/URL] fiasco. There is also the natural growth of the few existing Israeli cities in the West Bank (who most likely will remain under Israeli control anyway as part of a land swap according to most feasible peace plans) that the Palestinians have recently started using as an excuse not to negotiate with Israel instead of making it one of the issues to be discussed as part of the actual negotiations. So again, there is a valid issue with Jewish land grabs in the West Bank and the current government isn't doing enough (if anything) to deal with them. But to claim Israel as a state is trying to push out (to where?) the Palestinian population for the purpose of taking over more land is delusional at best and incredibly dishonest at most. Israel hasn't even annexed the West Bank as it did the Golan Heights for example. Israeli law doesn't apply there. It's just an area stuck under mixed Palestinian Authority and Israeli military control, a transitional state that was agreed upon way back during the Oslo accords that just got stuck there because the peace process never managed to go any further. It will eventually, and then there will be a Palestinian state and all the shitty little settler outposts and tiny settler towns wouldn't matter.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;52432532]It's like 50 tits for one tat. have a chart [img]http://i.imgur.com/L7syoqd.png[/img][/QUOTE] May I ask what happened in 2014?

[QUOTE=da space core;52434052]May I ask what happened in 2014?[/QUOTE] Israel launched Operation Protective Edge into Gaza after Hamas kidnapped and murdered three hitch-hiking teenagers. This particular conflict was very rocket-heavy, with each side reported as having shot out at least 4,000 rockets.

Middle East is such a shit hole sometimes.

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;52433840]Brushing something off using an idiotic internet law doesn't pass in an actual debate, especially considering how what Israel is doing is actually comparable to Nazi Germany's [I]Lebensraum[/I] policies.[/QUOTE] And so was the US' treatment of Japanese citizens during WWII, do you see anyone comparing that to the holocaust? No, because that would be pants on head retarded. I'm brushing him off because its a dumb statement to make. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is just dumb [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=geel9;52433710]"Israel kills a massively disproportionate amount of Palestinian citizens, but at least they're [i]cautious[/i] about it!"[/QUOTE] Its tough to fight a war when your enemy hides among civilians. Dont forget that the US (both of our homeland) killed over 250,000 civilians in its conquest in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel in that timespan managed to keep the toll down to around 9,000. [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] You cant honestly expect Israel to not defend itself.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52435439] Its tough to fight a war when your enemy hides among civilians. Dont forget that the US (both of our homeland) killed over 250,000 civilians in its conquest in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel in that timespan managed to keep the toll down to around 9,000. [/QUOTE] Yeah the US is a piece of shit too. It's easy to win arguments when your position is logically consistent and not based on ideological support of a nation.

[QUOTE=geel9;52435457]Yeah the US is a piece of shit too. It's easy to win arguments when your position is logically consistent and not based on ideological support of a nation.[/QUOTE] I give you my congratulations for not supporting any nation that has ever taken any military action in some capacity ever at any point in time. Never has there been, nor will there ever be, a war fought where civilian casualties are completely eliminated. But good for you for jumping up onto that high horse that lets you see the world in a black and white way.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52435683]I give you my congratulations for not supporting any nation that has ever taken any military action in some capacity ever at any point in time. Never has there been, nor will there ever be, a war fought where civilian casualties are completely eliminated. But good for you for jumping up onto that high horse that lets you see the world in a black and white way.[/QUOTE] You equate "any military action in some capacity" with our invasion of the middle east. Interesting perspective. That's very patriotic of you.

[QUOTE=geel9;52435687]You equate "any military action in some capacity" with our invasion of the middle east. Interesting perspective. That's very patriotic of you.[/QUOTE] I don't really support the US' actions in Iraq but thanks for demonizing me. I wasn't equating the US, Israel's action, or anybody's actions anywhere to my statement. It was a very general statement about how you can't expect a military function effectively without incurring civilian casualties. I don't like it but thats the reality; I just refuse to live in ignorance like you do and pretend that a war can occur without people dying.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52435828]I don't really support the US' actions in Iraq but thanks for demonizing me. I wasn't equating the US, Israel's action, or anybody's actions anywhere to my statement. It was a very general statement about how you can't expect a military function effectively without incurring civilian casualties. I don't like it but thats the reality; I just refuse to live in ignorance like you do and pretend that a war can occur without people dying.[/QUOTE] You legitimately think the Israel/Palestine conflict is a war? It's not even close. Terrorists shoot at Israel from citizen centers, and then Israel bombs the citizen centers. That makes a whole lot of sense to me! Palestinian terrorists are [i]oh so evil[/i] for using innocent civilians as human shields -- [i]but Israel is the one that's killing them.[/i]

[QUOTE=geel9;52436077]You legitimately think the Israel/Palestine conflict is a war? It's not even close. Terrorists shoot at Israel from citizen centers, and then Israel bombs the citizen centers. That makes a whole lot of sense to me! Palestinian terrorists are [i]oh so evil[/i] for using innocent civilians as human shields -- [i]but Israel is the one that's killing them.[/i][/QUOTE] Okay, so what should Israel do when terrorists shoot rockets at Israel then?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52436324]Okay, so what should Israel do when terrorists shoot rockets at Israel then?[/QUOTE] I'd say warning the civilians and then bombing those locations is a good start:hiddendowns: [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] Ok, but really, so they don't do that because "why would terrorists stay if they warned them to leave". So they bomb without warning. No? So they invade and use infantry. No? They take the offensive on Hamas and strike before they do. But now Israel is the aggressor. Which way would you like to have it?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52436324]Okay, so what should Israel do when terrorists shoot rockets at Israel then?[/QUOTE] Do what every other country does. React to it without bombing civilian centers. Get a squad of soldiers, confiscate the weaponry and capture the terrorists. If another country was bombing my town, causing millions of dollars in damage, you bet your ass I am going to buy rockets to fire at them. Israel isn't waging this war to win, they're playing it to kill as many people that aren't them. Or at least it looks that way to anyone else.

[QUOTE=Revenge282;52436617]I'd say warning the civilians and then bombing those locations is a good start:hiddendowns: [editline]5th July 2017[/editline] Ok, but really, so they don't do that because "why would terrorists stay if they warned them to leave". So they bomb without warning. No? So they invade and use infantry. No? They take the offensive on Hamas and strike before they do. But now Israel is the aggressor. Which way would you like to have it?[/QUOTE] Reacting by bombing with a warning after Hamas launches a rocket is good.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52436629]Do what every other country does. React to it without bombing civilian centers. Get a squad of soldiers, confiscate the weaponry and capture the terrorists. If another country was bombing my town, causing millions of dollars in damage, you bet your ass I am going to buy rockets to fire at them. Israel isn't waging this war to win, they're playing it to kill as many people that aren't them. Or at least it looks that way to anyone else.[/QUOTE] [I]All of Gaza is run by Hamas[/I] Israel doesn't bomb first, they only bomb after Hamas fires a rocket. They don't buy rockets either, Hamas makes rockets themselves. Your suggestion is the same exact thing as saying "why doesn't the US simply invade North Korea to take away their missiles?" It's not realistic and only people who are completely uninformed would suggest it. You're literally suggesting that Israel invade Gaza and engage in very risky close quarters combat that will lead to the deaths of Israeli soldiers every time a spy reports that there's a rocket cache hidden in Mahmoud's basement.

I wonder what will happen in 20 years from now. I honestly don't think this is going to end in anyway other than total and utter bloodshed and as much as the groups like Hamas and Fatah are responsible for it, they're a reaction to something else and that's pretty hard to deny IMO.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52436683]I wonder what will happen in 20 years from now. I honestly don't think this is going to end in anyway other than total and utter bloodshed and as much as the groups like Hamas and Fatah are responsible for it, they're a reaction to something else and that's pretty hard to deny IMO.[/QUOTE] 20 years from now is hard to predict but as soon as Abbas dies, it's very likely that Hamas will take control in the West Bank after a bloody mini civil war by various Palestinian factions. That'll be unacceptable to Israel and will practically void Oslo since the PLO will be realistically dead in the water so it [I]might[/I] lead to an annexation of more than just East Jerusalem. However, Hezbollah and Syria will be willing to help Hamas since Iran forced Hamas to bend the knee to Iran in exchange for desperately needed cash. Long story short, it's going to be bad times ahead.